ExpandedKang

Member
Oct 30, 2017
352
Well, you're wrong Krugman, you clearly don't understand how economies work because I know for a fact that if you tax the rich they will whine constantly and threaten to leave the country, which is incredibly bad and not good.

It's E C O N O M I C S 1 0 1
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
Regressive taxes. Glad Krugman is saying this but he's using arithmetic, economics and history to argue against people who know precisely why he's right but simply don't like it - so they prop up breathing jokes like "policy wonk" Paul Ryan to make easily disprovable spreadsheets that start with a foregone tax cutting conclusion and look for ways to disguise it politically and even emotionally.

There's kind of a trope that trickle down economics was proposed, attempted and then failed to produce the predicted results. But this was that rare case where the sauced guy at the end of the bar did in fact have enough information to correctly predict that it would fail completely because it was always horseshit. Literally a semantic disguise for a slow moving heist and I doubt even fallen tree-apple Rand Paul ever believed it.

His dad, who still knowingly helps gold bug marketing scams (to part credulous working class suckers from their brutally depleted retirement savings) sure didn't believe it.


It's actually quite hard to find a republican serious about economics, period. Part of it was the Grover Norquist (also doesn't believe his own claimed philosophy and is just a marketing lobbyist) "drown government in a bathtub" anti tax effort shrouded in some fuzzy shit about freedom but a lot of it was an awkward transition to the southern strategy so they could maintain their existing failed tax policy but sweeten the presentation so they could sell it to their newly expanded base without actually doing anything for them.

The gilded age thing is definitely true monetarily and it's really hard for me to get past the "how many Lamborghinis does an individual really need?" ethical question, but the problem is also corporations and shareholders too.
 

tuxfool

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,858
The problem is that we consider microeconomics foundational and folks will only get to macro if they have cause to, so it encourages that whole "treat everything like a small household or business" mindset.

Should go Macro first. Micro you'll only really need if you're going into Business. Macro impacts us all.
This isnt applicable everywhere. At school we were thought micro and macro in equal amounts. This is pre-university, so it doesn't get more foundational than that.
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
smh when will Krugman learn these ideas are impractical and defy basic economics!
 

LegendofJoe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,141
Arkansas, USA
smh when will Krugman learn these ideas are impractical and defy basic economics!

Precisely!

image.jpg
 

FeliciaFelix

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,778
What's with the Krugman hate? I know the right hates him because they hate logic, but what's the left's reason?
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,425
Sydney
Taxes are like the laws of physics they can't be changed, are the same all over the world, have always been at the same rate, mankind is always discovering more of them, etc
 

demondance

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,808
Krugman is pretty awful to read these days. He comes across as a bitter man. And no, 70% tax rates would be a disaster if it was implemented.

tell us more

Well, you're wrong Krugman, you clearly don't understand how economies work because I know for a fact that if you tax the rich they will whine constantly and threaten to leave the country, which is incredibly bad and not good.

It's E C O N O M I C S 1 0 1

Where will they even go? One of the neoliberal hellholes that actually follows their proscribed economic wishlist?
 

gozu

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,442
America
I said it before Paul Krugman.

Capitalism needs it to work, otherwise, rich get richer, poor get poorer quicker and quicker until revolution or slavery.
 

_Karooo

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,029
I said it before Paul Krugman.

Capitalism needs it to work, otherwise, rich get richer, poor get poorer quicker and quicker until revolution or slavery.
You said it before Krugman? High marginal tax rates and higher % tax on capital gains won't really get you much revenue.

I think your low-effort posts are awful to read. #teamkrugman
https://www.resetera.com/threads/pa...w-about-tax-policy-a-lot.91714/#post-16608307
Consumption taxes are far better.
 

XMonkey

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,864

sfortunato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,767
Italy
The problem is that we consider microeconomics foundational and folks will only get to macro if they have cause to, so it encourages that whole "treat everything like a small household or business" mindset.

Should go Macro first. Micro you'll only really need if you're going into Business. Macro impacts us all.

Microeconomics is essential in nowadays Macroeconomics. All Macro and Trade models are Micro-founded. Macro variables are still an aggregate of individual agent behaviour and decision. There's plenty of literature studying how to aggregate individual agents.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Ironically the real issue behind AOC's proposal is that it isn't radical enough to pay for most of her proposed spending increases, because there actually isn't that much taxable income in the $10 mill+ bracket that she's targeting.
This is actually why the SALT deductions getting killed hurt blue staters so much. Liberal states increased local tax rates after the federal ones were decreased, so effective tax rates are often much higher than the on paper federal one, but this was blunted by the SALT rules that made the feds pay them instead of the individual. Not anymore!
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,987
I don't even know it's basic maths illiteracy, I am truly awful at maths but understand how bracketing works it's just a simple logic concept.

It feels like the result of an intellectual project to misinform people of the basic characteristics of a progressive tax system.

It's not a math skill issue, it's very to easy to understand. If you're an American, at a family gathering, explain marginal tax rate. Most will say you are wrong, it's not true, it's not how it works. You will have to force them to verify. It's very easy to understand, but people just don't know it.

It's both a maths and logic issue, so for some people it's easy to grasp intuitively, but it's also something that can be taught through the education system for those who don't "get" it intuitively. My wife's a maths teacher, and tax brackets are part of the standard UK curriculum. Is the US curriculum so different?
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,440
The average American (and this is true in Canada too and I'm sure many other countries) doesn't understand marginal tax rates. If you say people making 1 million will be taxed at a marginal rate of 70%, they think they will make a total of $300,000.

This misunderstanding is the #1 problem affecting public finances.

Is the #2 problem that it seems like no one understands how property taxes work either?
 

ZackieChan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,056
I mean this isn't exactly ground breaking stuff. Other countries heavily tax the rich and it works just fine. Anyone with a basic Econ degree would know all about this kind of stuff.
Our president? 😬
It's not a pure Econ degree, IIRC, it's a poly sci one w/ some Econ elements but they wouldn't be the primary focus.

She's gotten some stuff really wrong on health care/econ policy, which is why it's good that she's getting advice from economists who know their stuff now, if Krugman's sourcing is correct. (lol watch it be him.)
I thought it was an obvious wink to the audience that it was him, but maybe I'm reading too much into it.
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
Income tax in the US is progressive, not regressive.

We have (and they're discussing) a progressive federal income tax code, I'm whining about how regressive our surrounding systems and loopholes - starting with manystate taxes, the ludicrous capital gains rate and so on -- are for poor people
 

Freakzilla

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
5,710
My HS econ class was pretty much an open discussion on Obama so I learned very little about taxes and econ :/
 

Window

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,292
My HS econ class was pretty much an open discussion on Obama so I learned very little about taxes and econ :/
Geez that sounds bad and I'm surprised any self respecting economics teacher would do that. Most economists like to stick to 'positive' statements (even though really actual policy making is a matter of values and opinion).

On tax policy, I don't think I've heard endorsements for such a high marginal rate before. Even Denmark is at like 60%. I don't think those older periods are relevant.
 

dabig2

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,116
We have (and they're discussing) a progressive federal income tax code, I'm whining about how regressive our surrounding systems and loopholes - starting with manystate taxes, the ludicrous capital gains rate and so on -- are for poor people

There's a nice bloomberg article on this feature (not a bug) of our "progressive" tax system.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...y-twice-as-much-in-taxes-as-wealthy-investors

[...]
Let's also say we both report $300,000 in income to the Internal Revenue Service this year. Who pays more in taxes?


800x-1.jpg


You do, by a lot. You owe the IRS about $38,500 more, assuming each of us pays the maximum with no special deductions. I also have more flexibility to lower my burden with tax planning strategies and other tricks, and I get to skip about $24,000 in payroll taxes that you and your employer must fork over each year.

This isn't some quirk of the U.S. tax code. Politicians have intentionally set tax rates on wages much higher than those on long-term investment returns. The U.S. has a progressive tax system in the sense that well-paid workers sacrifice much more than poor workers on their "ordinary income." But Americans with so-called unearned income—qualified dividends and long-term capital gains—get a break. A billionaire investor can pay about the same marginal rate as a $40,000-a-year worker, a fact Warren Buffett has famously lamented.

[...]
Americans in the top 1 percent, and especially the top 0.1 percent, have seen their wealth and income multiply in recent decades as the rest of the country's share of the economic pie shrank. Since 2000, a recent study found, the top 1 percent have made those gains almost entirely on income from capital, especially corporate stock—not on labor income. One reason may be the financial options of the wealthy: Business owners can lower their tax bills by paying themselves in dividends rather than in salary, for example.
[...]

This shit is untenable. And now the gap is widening even more with the bullshit tax plan passed by Republicans. I don't think people appreciate how fucked we are now already, and then also in the nearish future once student loan debt crash the economy and we see healthcare insurance rates skyrocketing after all boomers are retired.

The fundamentals of our economy are broken and it's by design of the rich.
 

Freakzilla

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
5,710
Geez that sounds bad and I'm surprised any self respecting economics teacher would do that. Most economists like to stick to 'positive' statements (even though really actual policy making is a matter of values and opinion).

On tax policy, I don't think I've heard endorsements for such a high marginal rate before. Even Denmark is at like 60%. I don't think those older periods are relevant.

Well at that time Senior year year was half a year of poli sci and the other half econ but rarely did teachers get to econ.
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
You wrote "regressive taxes"; that's why I was pointing this out.

I know...? You said it twice now.

I made what I thought was a fairly clear complaint about the existing deliberate regressive effects of the rest of the tax and income /benefits matrix in the country as it effects the poor. Saying "America" has a progressive tax system is what I'd call deceptively simplistic (I'm not saying that's your point) since all it means is that one federal stream of tax income is progressive - while the other elements of the system help obfuscate the fact that an underlying regressive matrix of tax and income and social economics reveal a deeply regressive effect on the poor.

I mention this because glancing at the federal income tax rate in isolation would lead to a faulty conclusion. And it's not as simple as fixing the unearned income rates - there's a deep rooted semantically obfuscated and arithmetical regression deliberately infecting everything from social security to the cost of soda.

Obviously changing the federal income tax and capital gains rate would be massive but there's a lot more than that to untangle?
 

gozu

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,442
America
You said it before Krugman? High marginal tax rates and higher % tax on capital gains won't really get you much revenue.

If you're going to contradict the experts, the burden of proof is on you to explain why. Is it a gut feeling? Because we are not interested in gut feelings.


A regressive 10% consumption tax? This is your solution to fight income inequality? You're adorable.

Do you have any examples when this has worked? Dollars to cents you do not.
 

VectorPrime

Banned
Apr 4, 2018
11,781
I would still support taxing the shit out of the rich if we literally took all of the money and just burned it all in a giant bonfire. At least those fuckers won't have it.
 

gozu

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,442
America
There's a nice bloomberg article on this feature (not a bug) of our "progressive" tax system.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...y-twice-as-much-in-taxes-as-wealthy-investors



This shit is untenable. And now the gap is widening even more with the bullshit tax plan passed by Republicans. I don't think people appreciate how fucked we are now already, and then also in the nearish future once student loan debt crash the economy and we see healthcare insurance rates skyrocketing after all boomers are retired.

The fundamentals of our economy are broken and it's by design of the rich.

Here is a question for you. If your goal was to low-key bring back slavery by enriching the rich more and more and impoverishing the middle class more and more over a few decades, how would you do it?
 

sfortunato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,767
Italy
I know...? You said it twice now.

I made what I thought was a fairly clear complaint about the existing deliberate regressive effects of the rest of the tax and income /benefits matrix in the country as it effects the poor. Saying "America" has a progressive tax system is what I'd call deceptively simplistic (I'm not saying that's your point) since all it means is that one federal stream of tax income is progressive - while the other elements of the system help obfuscate the fact that an underlying regressive matrix of tax and income and social economics reveal a deeply regressive effect on the poor.

I mention this because glancing at the federal income tax rate in isolation would lead to a faulty conclusion. And it's not as simple as fixing the unearned income rates - there's a deep rooted semantically obfuscated and arithmetical regression deliberately infecting everything from social security to the cost of soda.

Obviously changing the federal income tax and capital gains rate would be massive but there's a lot more than that to untangle?

Dude, when the tax system has increasing marginal tax rates as income increases it is said to be "progressive taxation". If marginal rates decrease as income increases it is called "regressive taxation".
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
Dude, when the tax system has increasing marginal tax rates as income increases it is said to be "progressive taxation". If marginal rates decrease as income increases it is called "regressive taxation".

I don't know why you keep trying to tell me the correct dictionary definitions of progressive and regressive tax rates. I'm not arguing about those. I'm complaining about how regression is expressed through other tax and income instruments to create a net regressive effect on the poor through things that are not the federal income tax rate. Would it help you move on if I just said "oh my God you're right!?"

Oh my God you're right.
 
Oct 25, 2017
618
Now that they don't have to worry about knocking Bernie down in service of guaranteeing an establishment candidate like Hillary's party nomination, I bet you'll see a lot more left leaning pundits like Krugman come out in favor of these type of policies vs. calling them fantasies when Bernie was pitching them in '16.
 
Oct 30, 2017
8,796
Yeah it's been really telling how many people online recently have thought that if you go $1 over the bracket that your entire income is taxed at the new rate, and not just the income earned in the bracket

I assume some of that is disingenuous bad faith arguments but no wonder people are so pissed off at taxes if they think that's how it works
I've talked with several libertarian leaning folks in real life that had no idea how progressive taxation works.

Once you explain that someone who makes $1 million and $50,000 are taxed at the same rate for that first $50,000 it begins to make a lot more sense.

Some people literally think that getting a salary raise of 5% and it bumps you into a 5% higher tax bracket, your entire salary raise goes to the government.
 

ItsBobbyDarin

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,905
Egyptian residing in Denmark
Paul Krugman wrote my Macro book. He is a smart guy, top of my list right next to Olivier Blanchard.

For a thriving economy, you want to encourage the exchange of money for goods and services, not discourage it by taxing it!

Aaaaah. That depends. If the economy is thriving TOO much (Positive output gap), then you'll want to discourage private consumption to not overheat the economy.

The real target should be sitting savings. Don't tax income, spending, investments... but tax hoarded cash.

Hoarded cash do not exist... Unless they are under a matress. Cash lies in the banks, which uses them to lend to others to fund their investments.
 
Last edited: