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packy17

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,901
8chan is another so called 'avenue of discussion', just like steam forums. Do you see yourself using the same rhetoric to argue for not closing down that internet corner of toxicity?

Holy shit, what a leap. Not even remotely the same.

Community forums for games on Steam are designed to be moderated by the developers/publishers themselves. Yes, it can get out of hand when companies neglect this, but they have all the tools they need to keep things clean. They just have to care enough to do it.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,139
Ask them.

And what does that have to do with what I said? Your comment seems random. If Epic uses steam forums for tech support, that automatically means steam forums are not toxic?
You argued that for devs the toxicity outweighs the utility of the steam forums.

This is clearly not the case if developers voluntarily use the steam forums for tech support rather than one of countless other solutions.

You've made a baseless claim. How about you ask developers whether your statement is accurate.
 

Mihai_

Banned
Sep 25, 2018
216
No, that means that Steam forums are a vital community and support tool.
I agree that the steam forums perform this function: a support tool. Vital though? I doubt it. They can be replaced with a dedicated support Q&A forum for example.

My only forays into the steam forums have indeed been related to tech support - finding fixes for different problems I had with games.
And every single time I've seen the same things: "lazy devs", "Game is not worth buying, might as well pirate it" and racism.
I'm just a regular user and I got tired of the toxicity on those forums. Thing about the devs that have to endure hate messages everyday.

Anyway, I'll keep my opinion that Steam forums are too toxic to be worth it. I'd rather have another system in place. I try to avoid them as much as possible anyway.

You've made a baseless claim. How about you ask developers whether your statement is accurate.
You seem to have a logic related problem.

My claim is that steam forums are a very very toxic place. I have to ask the developers for what? Whether these toxic posts exist or not? lol

Whether the devs are bothered by the toxicity is besides the point. Some devs will be bothered, some may not be bothered. But the toxicity is still there. How is my claim baseless? Rhetoric is not your strong point, is it?
 
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Mr. Mug

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
650
I haven't used the Epic service that much (except to hoard free games) but I'm glad to hear they don't have forums.
If you're a game developer, the Steam forum is one of the most toxic places on the internet. I've seen people proudly tell devs they pirated their game,e ven bragging about it;I've seen ppl swearing at devs or give them a hard time for petty reasons; ppl who didn't meet the minimum requirements accuse devs of being lazy and not optimising their game. And I'm not even talking about the racism, sexism, and nazi corners of the steam forums.

Those forums can give you serious depression if you're a dev. I assume you have to have a really thick skin to make it through reading some of the Steam forum posts.
Sure it can be helpful in some cases, but the toxicity far outweighs any benefit those forums have.

I'll celebrate the day when Steam forum dies.

[/QUOTE]

You have some rather odd priorities if the first example of toxicity in those places you think of is piracy. Nobody's saying steam forums isn't in desperate need of better moderation (steam in general really). But to get rid of them altogether is not better than having good moderation.

I agree that the steam forums perform this function: a support tool. Vital though? I doubt it. They can be replaced with a dedicated support Q&A forum for example.

How exactly would this be different? How would you prevent this from going toxic as well? Steam is in desperate need of better moderation but completely getting rid of the forums seems far from ideal to me.
 

Mihai_

Banned
Sep 25, 2018
216
How exactly would this be different? How would you prevent this from going toxic as well? Steam is in desperate need of better moderation but completely getting rid of the forums seems far from ideal to me.
Then make the consequences for toxic behaviour more draastic: you're a racist or you post hate messages aimed at devs, lose your steam account forever.
 

Sean Mirrsen

Banned
May 9, 2018
1,159
And every single time I've seen the same things: "lazy devs", "Game is not worth buying, might as well pirate it" and racism.
I'm just a regular user and I got tired of the toxicity on those forums. Thing about the devs that have to endure hate messages everyday.
Just as a data point - did you report any of those messages for moderation?
 

Sean Mirrsen

Banned
May 9, 2018
1,159
Then make the consequences for toxic behaviour more draastic: you're a racist or you post hate messages aimed at devs, lose your steam account forever.
I do believe that doing that is illegal. The discussion rules however state that a user may be, at any point, permanently banned from Steam Discussions by any moderator, especially for repeated infractions.

edit: er, whops. Meant to edit that into the above post.
 

Madjoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,238
Promoting piracy is good way to get permanent ban from steam community. (assuming someone reports your post).
 

Deleted member 10551

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,031
Then make the consequences for toxic behaviour more draastic: you're a racist or you post hate messages aimed at devs, lose your steam account forever.

You'd see folks start using burner accounts to post anything. Steam's not going to do anything to risk losing more customers than it gains.

Ironically, the only company I know of that banned someone and closed an account was Stardock of all people. (they made it legal by refunding the money spent)
 

Mihai_

Banned
Sep 25, 2018
216
Just as a data point - did you report any of those messages for moderation?
Is this the "if you don't report every instance of racism/hate post" don't complain about it?
I didn't waste my time reporting dozens of posts. Nor should anyone. And neither should devs be subjected to hate posts/threats, whether they're bothered by it or not.

What's with the mental gymnastics of shifting the blame on the ppl not reporting the posts? Anything except accepting that steam forums is a really really toxic and hateful place, right?

Some of you blame one corporation, only to go to great length defending another.
Anyway, I've said my opinion on steam forums. If some of you think they're fine... then I strongly disagree with your opinion. And if you thing they're not fine, but accept them cuz 'good tech support' then I don't know what to say to you.
 

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
Now that Valve seemingly agrees that review bombing is A Bad Thing, the Next logical thing for them to do is to identify repeat offenders and strip away their ability to post further reviews for a time.
 

Butch

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,439
I'm actually fine with the EGS but I have 2 reasons I can't jump in just yet:
1 - They don't seem to have a community market, I don't think I can sell some junk I earn for free and then get a cool skin on RL that cost real money. I see that as a downside of the Epic version, as of now. Correct me if I'm wrong please.
2 - Skins/dlc are going to be more expensive at Epic for me, since they don't have regional prices for every country just yet, the game would probably cost double on Epic too, as with every other game right now. This doesn't affect everyone.

I would be fine if they can catch up with steam when it comes to regional prices in small countries. And I think they are already working on it.
 
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mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
My goodness, people are immature.

Rocket League is a great game and Epic isn't a bad developer.

I can't think of a better developer to continue to keep Rocket League alive besides maybe the Minecraft team.

Are you arguing in bad faith or just ignorant?

A company like Rocket League wasn't at risk of collapsing. Over 90% of businesses fail before the 5 year mark. Psyonix is 19 years old. Rocket League itself is 4 years old and is showing signs of population growth not decline before the Epic acquisition.

These review bombs are inappropriate but you aren't thinking critically about why that is the case.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,139
You seem to have a logic related problem.

My claim is that steam forums are a very very toxic place. I have to ask the developers for what? Whether these toxic posts exist or not? lol

Whether the devs are bothered by the toxicity is besides the point. Some devs will be bothered, some may not be bothered. But the toxicity is still there. How is my claim baseless? Rhetoric is not your strong point, is it?

Your claim is that the toxicity outweighs utility.

Yet the great many number of devs finding utility in them entirely dismantles this. Clearly any supposed toxicity is outweighed by their utility, at least for some devs (including those who removed their games from Steam to sell them exclusively on Epic Store).

Because they are free to just ignore the forums if they so desire.

Now that Valve seemingly agrees that review bombing is A Bad Thing, the Next logical thing for them to do is to identify repeat offenders and strip away their ability to post further reviews for a time.

I don't think that this would be the right approach, but do think they should do some weighting of reviews. Someone who posts 99% negative reviews and 1% positive should have those negative reviews have less impact on the average score, and the positive should have more impact. The reverse should also be true.
 

Sean Mirrsen

Banned
May 9, 2018
1,159
What's with the mental gymnastics of shifting the blame on the ppl not reporting the posts? Anything except accepting that steam forums is a really really toxic and hateful place, right?
In all my time on the Steam forums, I've only seen a few instances of toxic behavior that were, for the most part, swiftly dealt with.
It may be a toxic and hateful place in discussion boards I don't visit, but your argument of "it is as I say" can not alter my opinion, sorry.

And there are no mental gymnastics needed. Toxic people are everywhere, on every forum and social media service, in every chatroom and Discord channel. If/when there are enough moderators on duty to read every post as it comes in, offending posts will be removed within seconds to minutes. But when your userbase keeps ten million people online at any one time, the only hope of finding content that needs moderation is if someone points that content out to a moderator.

Like it or not, if you're not reporting content that should be reported, then you're part of the problem. It's not your duty, it's not your responsibility, but if it's bothering you enough to argue for taking down the whole system, perhaps doing that bit of due diligence would serve everyone better than just looking at it and being disgusted.

If people walk along the street and see a pile of trash in the way, they can grumble about it or complain about it to everyone they see - but even if it's not their business to remove the trash, that pile is going to stay there until someone calls the relevant service company to take care of it. Waiting for the pile to magically evaporate, or for a service worker to just happen to be in the area and notice it, is just going to keep the trash visible and smellable for the entire time.
 

scitek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,117
Honestly, the first two things I do when I have a problem with a game is search "[game title] pcgamingwiki" and "[game title] steam discussion" on Google so I can see if there are any known fixes. I can't count the number of times I've used Steam's forums to iron things out.
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,846
Brazil
Now that Valve seemingly agrees that review bombing is A Bad Thing, the Next logical thing for them to do is to identify repeat offenders and strip away their ability to post further reviews for a time.

The fact there's a review history that is used to identify review bombings doesn't mean they're necessarily against that. Like always, Valve like to provide tools for people that want to use it.

Nobody at Valve have an official stance at the matter. But if someone is pro review bombing there, nobody will really say it because Valve have a direct relationship with publishers/devs. It would also be silly to say officially they are against it because being against a legit form of protest is not a good pr move at all.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,139
Honestly, the first two things I do when I have a problem with a game is search "[game title] pcgamingwiki" and "[game title] steam discussion" on Google so I can see if there are any known fixes. I can't count the number of times I've used Steam's forums to iron things out.
Yep. Because those forums primarily exist for users, not for developers.

Kinda feels like people railing against their existence either don't do much PC gaming, or never do any modding or don't play old games with issues on modern operating systems etc.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,397
Yep. Because those forums primarily exist for users, not for developers.

Kinda feels like people railing against their existence either don't do much PC gaming, or never do any modding or don't play old games with issues on modern operating systems etc.

And I trust a random Forum poster or blog on the Internet more than a ticket system from the developer.

1. it is faster
2. I don't need to send my dxdiag and reinstall my game and/or windows in the first step.

Seriously, I am working in tech support for over 10 years. in Mail or Ticket support, 90% of the time you are not trying to help the customer (on first contact). You are trying to just send an E-mail out to the customer so that it counts for your workflow and your AHT (average handling time) only 70% or so reply back and only on the 2nd or 3rd E-Mail you are starting to really research the problem.
Why? because you only have 10 to 15 minute per customer and you really need 30 minutes to 2 hours. If there is an easy fix? Great, send it, if not? dxdiag, deinstall all mods and reinstall game/software/windows, hey did you already deinstall and clean the antivirus suite? Just deactivating doesn't work! Only after all those steps would you research deeper.

(man I miss those Microsoft support days, you could take whatever time you needed to help the customer :( )
 

cyklisten

Member
Nov 12, 2017
442
It's not that they will simply ignore voting with your wallet. They won't actually get the message with that.

Only message voting with your wallet can give the publisher is "People are less interested in your videogame than you'd have expected", while in review bombing there's a specific message written on a specific time.

They're clearly not equivalent.
Really? At this point of the discussion? The post 499 of the 10th page of a thread where this exactly point was probably replied on the first page?

Did you forgot the /s or something?

What do you mean? The point of the discussion where we´re at? Where you made the reply I commented on? If it´s common sense, then why did you post it at all? On page 10, post 400-something, when the answer apparently was at the start of the thread, of all things?
 

cyklisten

Member
Nov 12, 2017
442
How many people can realistically be drummed up to this kind of protest? Hundreds? Thousands? What if even tens of thousands are going along, against the backdrop of millions of copies sold by the companies usually targeted? What impact does this really have?

In comparison, in a system where every message is permanently visible and overall reviews number in the thousands at best, even a hundred voices speaking out displeasure in unison can have a very prominent impact. Not by directly denying the company their money, but by giving others information that may sway them to not giving the company theirs.

If there was such a system that was separate from providing feedback on the game itself, people would use it. Things being as they are, it's the only way.

Hopefully nearly all of them, since it means so much that they´ll spend equal amount of time to write the reviews in the first place.
It´s not as though it takes any more time. It´s just structured better with a more constructive outset.
And I must say, if you, and 10 thousand others are unhappy with a games direction, yet millions love the direction, then maybe that game or company is just not for you anymore. It´s pretty entitled trying to strongarm it to cater your tiny niche in that specific scenario.
Also, there´s plenty of feedback opportunities with these companies. You can cut out your message to the companies in stone through their communication platforms if you wanted to.
I get that a part of it is wanting to illuminate possibly bad changes to eventual consumers, but reviewing a game a 0 with zero explanation or context doesn´t do that. If people wrote meaningful reviews in a civil manner this wouldn´t even be a problem.

edit: sorry for the doublepost.
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,846
Brazil
What do you mean? The point of the discussion where we´re at? Where you made the reply I commented on? If it´s common sense, then why did you post it at all? On page 10, post 400-something, when the answer apparently was at the start of the thread, of all things?

It's common knowledge that publishers doesn't read e-mails or care about your opinions and review bombing only works because it's part of the game's page.

This point was already discussed atleast 10 times here. Is the way to go first argument that people against review bombing uses and the first one to be replied.

Note that tiny devs tend to reply people on the Steam forums (a method that people should try instead of a fucking e-mail, seriously how out of touch you people can be?), and there's no reason to do something like review bombing because of that.

Review bombing would never be a thing if publishers actually adressed issues or didn't ignored the consumer in any other way possible. I doubt anyone here would be pro review bombing in a reality where publishers actually had someone to read your e-mail.
 

cyklisten

Member
Nov 12, 2017
442
It's common knowledge that publishers doesn't read e-mails or care about your opinions and review bombing only works because it's part of the game's page.

This point was already discussed atleast 10 times here. Is the way to go first argument that people against review bombing uses and the first one to be replied.

Note that tiny devs tend to reply people on the Steam forums (a method that people should try instead of a fucking e-mail, seriously how out of touch you people can be?), and there's no reason to do something like review bombing because of that.

Review bombing would never be a thing if publishers actually adressed issues or didn't ignored the consumer in any other way possible. I doubt anyone here would be pro review bombing in a reality where publishers actually had someone to read your e-mail.

That´s some agressive language there mate.
But to the point. I simply can´t see a better way to express your frustration than stop giving the devs money coupled with letting them know why you´re dissatisfied and stopped giving them money. That being via mail, phone, as a footnote in your, hopefully wellwritten and mature, review or by discussing it on the games subreddit, their own dedicated forum or on the steamforums.
Giving a 0 with 0 zero context still feels like a temper tantrum to me, and everytime I see it on Steam I disregard it immediately because I can´t take it serious.
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,846
Brazil
Hopefully nearly all of them, since it means so much that they´ll spend equal amount of time to write the reviews in the first place.
It´s not as though it takes any more time. It´s just structured better with a more constructive outset.
And I must say, if you, and 10 thousand others are unhappy with a games direction, yet millions love the direction, then maybe that game or company is just not for you anymore. It´s pretty entitled trying to strongarm it to cater your tiny niche in that specific scenario.
Also, there´s plenty of feedback opportunities with these companies. You can cut out your message to the companies in stone through their communication platforms if you wanted to.
I get that a part of it is wanting to illuminate possibly bad changes to eventual consumers, but reviewing a game a 0 with zero explanation or context doesn´t do that. If people wrote meaningful reviews in a civil manner this wouldn´t even be a problem.

edit: sorry for the doublepost.

So, you're saying that, if a game that sold 5 million copies has a bigoted vision, Era is not entitled to protest against it because we're just 45k of people?

That´s some agressive language there mate.
But to the point. I simply can´t see a better way to express your frustration than stop giving the devs money coupled with letting them know why you´re dissatisfied and stopped giving them money. That being via mail, phone, as a footnote in your, hopefully wellwritten and mature, review or by discussing it on the games subreddit, their own dedicated forum or on the steamforums.
Giving a 0 with 0 zero context still feels like a temper tantrum to me, and everytime I see it on Steam I disregard it immediately because I can´t take it serious.

Care to say exactly where there's any kind of aggressive language in my post?

Steam reviews doesn't use numbers so there's no zeroes, and i never seem a review on Steam without context because it's kinda impossible lol the review is the context. Are you talking about metacritics?

When you suggest other methods to protest you're just ignoring most of the post.

I don't think it's a problem to not take review scores seriously. I know i don't. I respect individual reviews and use them to guide me on a Steam game (always a thumbs up and a thumbs down to be sure) but imo the % aggregated score is meaningless, which is part of why i don't mind review bombing.

The very notion of taking aggregated scores seriously always felt silly to me, and users against review bombing are doing that because they care about 90+ shit instead of the interests of the consumers. And that is not very mature as well.
 
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Sean Mirrsen

Banned
May 9, 2018
1,159
And I must say, if you, and 10 thousand others are unhappy with a games direction, yet millions love the direction, then maybe that game or company is just not for you anymore.
I must say, due to personal experience, I rather hate that line of thinking. Just because people don't care enough or don't know enough to oppose a change, it doesn't mean they're happy with it. It's the entire point of a public protest, through the most visible and direct means available, to raise awareness and drive those people that otherwise would just follow along into some kind of action. It's not a binary state of "if they're not unhappy enough to protest they must be happy", there's a significant majority of people who are not motivated enough to act either in protest or defense of a change. And while it's not for us to decide whether or not they should act, we can and should at least try to inform them of the things that are happening, that may affect them as well.

Back when Starbound was coming out of Early Access, Chucklefish dropped a sudden major change of the game's UI (the hotbar, specifically) just weeks before release. Many of us then-fans of the game tried to oppose the change as you describe it, by organizing polls on the game's forums and asking devs directly on Discord. Only a minority were happy with the change, a full third of poll participants hated it, and the majority broadly disagreed with some or most of the changed UI, very few didn't care either way. We got told that the hundreds of people in the poll "mattered little compared to the size of the playerbase", that "the change was well thought through" and "we should just give it a try and get used to it", and that maybe something will be possible with modding later.
No changes followed. Some bugs were fixed, the most glaring problems with the new design were partially amended, but there was nothing approaching the flexibility of the old design. No modding of the UI was implemented either.
I don't think it's much of a data point, but none of us resorted to review-bombing then, at least to my knowledge. In all honesty, with the benefit of hindsight, perhaps we should have. I left an honest negative review on the game well after the fact, after it became clear no changes were forthcoming, and it was lost in the usual noise, much like our regular complaints fell on deaf ears.

One may argue that the game succeeded well enough with the change, but there's no way to know now whether it's because or despite it. The original design was an extended variation of the traditional 10-slot hotbar adjusted for dual-wielding, while the new one was made to appeal more to action-platforming rather than building and exploration, the two things the game was ostensibly about. All I know now is that despite years of trying to come back to play the game, I always end up fighting the clunky UI more than the in-game enemies.
 
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cyklisten

Member
Nov 12, 2017
442
So, you're saying that, if a game that sold 5 million copies has a bigoted vision, Era is not entitled to protest against it because we're just 45k of people?



Care to say exactly where there's any kind of aggressive language in my post?

Steam reviews doesn't use numbers so there's no zeroes, and i never seem a review on Steam without context because it's kinda impossible lol the review is the context. Are you talking about metacritics?

When you suggest other methods to protest you're just ignoring most of the post.

I don't think it's a problem to not take review scores seriously. I know i don't. I respect individual reviews and use them to guide me on a Steam game (always a thumbs up and a thumbs down to be sure) but imo the % aggregated score is meaningless, which is part of why i don't mind review bombing.

The very notion of taking aggregated score,seriously always feels silly to me, and users against review bombing are doing that because they care about 90+ shit instead of the interests of the consumers. And that is not very mature as well.

Are you comparing a private company buying a product and releasing it on their own service with the hardships and tragedies of racism?
Because they´re kinda not the same.
And yes I will, and have protested against bigotry and I would actually rather have that Valve curates that the fuck out of their store without giving it the day of light in the first place. If they in future starts to support bigotry I´ll stop giving them money, express my frustration and move on to support services which doesn´t. What I won´t do is keep using the platform but meanwhile reviewbomb the platform on EGS´ forum....
The complete dismissal of mails as a way of communicating felt pretty agressive and disingenous.
So a thumbs down and the text "fuck Psyonix" is a mature, wellthoughtout response and the best way to give context to people warning them of this issue?
Seems we´ll have to agree to disagree.

I must say, due to personal experience, I rather hate that line of thinking. Just because people don't care enough or don't know enough to oppose a change, it doesn't mean they're happy with it. It's the entire point of a public protest, through the most visible and direct means available, to raise awareness and drive those people that otherwise would just follow along into some kind of action. It's not a binary state of "if they're not unhappy enough to protest they must be happy", there's a significant majority of people who are not motivated enough to act either in protest or defense of a change. And while it's not for us to decide whether or not they should act, we can and should at least try to inform them of the things that are happening, that may affect them as well.

You hate that millions of people have a potential different taste than you? Like, how do you know what they like and dislike? What they know and don´t know? They haven´t expressed anything other than the initial purchase.
 
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Mar 29, 2018
7,078
its kind of funny that steam introduced review bombing protection just before epic swanned in and kicked off a potential review bombing storm. did them a solid there.

dont know why it's news though - 'people tried to do a thing to gain attention, it didnt work, we're giving them attention regardless' is stupid.
The amount of people who will see this article is nothing compared to how many will see the game on Steam and Google. Google Rocket League and the steam score comes up. Steams system has definitely done great work here
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,846
Brazil
Are you comparing a private company buying a product and releasing it on their own service with the hardships and tragedies of racism?
Because they´re kinda not the same.
And yes I will, and have protested against bigotry and I would actually rather have that Valve curates that the fuck out of their store without giving it the day of light in the first place. If they in future starts to support bigotry I´ll stop giving them money, express my frustration and move on to support services which doesn´t. What I won´t do is keep using the platform but meanwhile reviewbomb the platform on EGS´ forum....
The complete dismissal of mails as a way of communicating felt pretty agressive and disingenous.
So a thumbs down and the text "fuck Psyonix" is a mature, wellthoughtout response and the best way to give context to people warning them of this issue?
Seems we´ll have to agree to disagree.

The difference between your protest and that one of people doing review bombing is that the later had some chance of working. Any way or another, you just said in the other post that your protest shouldn't hold ground because you're in the minority, so what gives?

I was only being half serious about the e-mail part, sorry if you perceived it as being aggresive. But i can't see how it's disingenuous lol

It's a fact, publishers doesn't care about e-mails sent by players, these goes directly to the spam section. Individual people like you and me doesn't read e-mails most of the time in 2019, unless we're expecting something from a boss or important client, what can we say about huge publishers?

Edit: This "are you comparing silly stuff with racism?" is not a very honest take. We're talking about stuff being effective or not here.

I mean, in your opinion review bombing is acceptable if used against bigotry? The problem you have here is about the relevance of the issue?

You hate that millions of people have a potential different taste than you? Like, how do you know what they like and dislike? What they know and don´t know? They haven´t expressed anything other than the initial purchase.

You are aware that review bombing are not about taste in gaming and if you dislike the game you're reviewing, then the thumbs down review is a legit one, right?
 
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Sean Mirrsen

Banned
May 9, 2018
1,159
You hate that millions of people have a potential different taste than you? Like, how do you know what they like and dislike? What they know and don´t know? They haven´t expressed anything other than the initial purchase.
No, I hate the "if these are all the people complaining, the rest must be happy" line of thinking.

There are millions of people playing one or the other game, so why aren't there millions of reviews that all express their like or dislike of the game? How is it that only a tiny percentage of people actually go out and report bugs? In this very thread we have a person who is so aghast at the toxic and hateful atmosphere in Steam discussions that he would argue for having them shut down, yet he would not report the offending posts because... reasons, I suppose.

This is just the way people tend to be, even when they are unhappy they stay quiet - because they don't know other people who feel the same way, because they think their actions won't matter, because they assume the problem will be dealt with anyway, or even just because they feel like they need a bandwagon to join with. This is a fallacy that bothers me greatly, and I don't know if it has a name. That only the people already voicing their unhappiness must be the ones that are unhappy.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,323
Regardless of your stance either way it's good that Valve isnt letting the review bomb stand, even though it would be hurting a (now) competitor's product. Good on them.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,944
Are you ever going to come back and address the posts calling out your BS here? Seems like you had and axe to grind with this thread and then up and left when you got called out.

I have a life outside of these threads and of Era in general. Please don't confuse me living it with packing up and AFKing because I was "called out" for stating an opinion of mine.

In terms of being called out on my BS, I'm not sure I follow. I said the most common thing I see is people only wanting Steam to exist, which is true. ResetEra is not the only place that this conversation is happening and I most commonly see a sentiment of "I don't want to download another game launcher" and "why do they need another market place when steam exists?"

I never stated that people don't have conversations about the business practices, I never said that the protests don't exist, I said the most common one I see is that they want only Steam to exist, which is true from what I've seen. It's my anecdotal experience.
 
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EloKa

GSP
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,909
It's my anecdotal experience.
"They want only Steam to exist" is wrong on so many levels.
As someone with a "Journalist" tag you should actually be extra careful to not sell your personal anecdotes as facts (while they aren't facts at all).

The whole "EPIC vs PC GAMING" discussion is such a huge and broad topic that "they want only Steam to exist" is such an arrogant and stupid statement. You shouldn't try to hottake such a complex situation.
 

Htown

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,338
I never stated that people don't have conversations about the business practices, I never said that the protests don't exist, I said the most common one I see is that they want only Steam to exist, which is true from what I've seen. It's my anecdotal experience.
Bullshit.
 

cyklisten

Member
Nov 12, 2017
442
The difference between your protest and that one of people doing review bombing is that the later had some chance of working. Any way or another, you just said in the other post that your protest shouldn't hold ground because you're in the minority, so what gives?

I was only being half serious about the e-mail part, sorry if you perceived it as being aggresive. But i can't see how it's disingenuous lol

It's a fact, publishers doesn't care about e-mails sent by players, these goes directly to the spam section. Individual people like you and me doesn't read e-mails most of the time in 2019, unless we're expecting something from a boss or important client, what can we say about huge publishers?

Edit: This "are you comparing silly stuff with racism?" is not a very honest take. We're talking about stuff being effective or not here.

I mean, in your opinion review bombing is acceptable if used against bigotry? The problem you have here is about the relevance of the issue?



You are aware that review bombing are not about taste in gaming and if you dislike the game you're reviewing, then the thumbs down review is a legit one, right?

Wow, so now you magically know all about my history of involvement in protests, and know that whatever I did didn´t work, because it doesn´t fit with your opinion on this subject? I don´t even know how to respond to these kind of wild baseless assumptions to be honest.
You also don´t know what goes in anybodys spamfolder for that matter. Or who reads them and for what. Writing off emails, when it´s probably one of, if not the most used form of serious written communication is absurd. And even glossing over mails I gave you 3-4 other forms of communication, but i guess nobody uses reddit or steamforums or developerforums....

No, I hate the "if these are all the people complaining, the rest must be happy" line of thinking.

There are millions of people playing one or the other game, so why aren't there millions of reviews that all express their like or dislike of the game? How is it that only a tiny percentage of people actually go out and report bugs? In this very thread we have a person who is so aghast at the toxic and hateful atmosphere in Steam discussions that he would argue for having them shut down, yet he would not report the offending posts because... reasons, I suppose.

This is just the way people tend to be, even when they are unhappy they stay quiet - because they don't know other people who feel the same way, because they think their actions won't matter, because they assume the problem will be dealt with anyway, or even just because they feel like they need a bandwagon to join with. This is a fallacy that bothers me greatly, and I don't know if it has a name. That only the people already voicing their unhappiness must be the ones that are unhappy.

Yeah, I get that, but neither you nor I know whether or not people are happy or the opposite without having heard their voice. And talking on their behalf and lumping them together to fit your own narrative is, in my opinion, not the way to go.
 

Alvis

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,262
Spain
I have a life outside of these threads and of Era in general. Please don't confuse me living it with packing up and AFKing because I was "called out" for stating an opinion of mine.

In terms of being called out on my BS, I'm not sure I follow. I said the most common thing I see is people only wanting Steam to exist, which is true. ResetEra is not the only place that this conversation is happening and I most commonly see a sentiment of "I don't want to download another game launcher" and "why do they need another market place when steam exists?"

I never stated that people don't have conversations about the business practices, I never said that the protests don't exist, I said the most common one I see is that they want only Steam to exist, which is true from what I've seen. It's my anecdotal experience.
Please link me to one post on Era that is against GoG, Uplay, Origin, itch.io, etc.

People are specifically against EGS because of their anti-consumer practices. Not against everything that isn't Steam. You should know this given that you are apparently a journalist?
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
I have a life outside of these threads and of Era in general. Please don't confuse me living it with packing up and AFKing because I was "called out" for stating an opinion of mine.

In terms of being called out on my BS, I'm not sure I follow. I said the most common thing I see is people only wanting Steam to exist, which is true. ResetEra is not the only place that this conversation is happening and I most commonly see a sentiment of "I don't want to download another game launcher" and "why do they need another market place when steam exists?"

I never stated that people don't have conversations about the business practices, I never said that the protests don't exist, I said the most common one I see is that they want only Steam to exist, which is true from what I've seen. It's my anecdotal experience.
Your have no idea what your talking about, If that's all your seeing than you are just seeing what you want to see. This has never been about just wanting the steam store, this whole thing is how the epic store is basically screwing customers and people not being okay with it.
 

Alvis

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,262
Spain
Imagine if when Microsoft unveiled their original plans for the Xbox One, with the always online DRM and all that, and people got ANGRY (and managed to force them to backpedal!), some Super Smart Person said "oh so you only want the PS4 to exist huh?"
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,846
Brazil
Wow, so now you magically know all about my history of involvement in protests, and know that whatever I did didn´t work, because it doesn´t fit with your opinion on this subject? I don´t even know how to respond to these kind of wild baseless assumptions to be honest.
You also don´t know what goes in anybodys spamfolder for that matter. Or who reads them and for what. Writing off emails, when it´s probably one of, if not the most used form of serious written communication is absurd. And even glossing over mails I gave you 3-4 other forms of communication, but i guess nobody uses reddit or steamforums or developerforums....

I will just assume you would have posted examples of changes you did in videogames with your protests if they were effective, sorry.

I was focusing on the e-mail part because it's somewhat more funny. But the "posting steam forums or any other kind of protest is ineffective and review bombing is the last resource" point was already discussed here ad infinitum in this same thread.

Like i already said, you don't see people review bombing tiny devs because in this case Steam forums are effective most of the time.

Tbh i don't think you want to discuss in good faith anymore but i will just ask the question again in case i'm wrong.

I mean, in your opinion review bombing is acceptable if used against bigotry? The problem you have here is about the relevance of the issue?
 

Captain of Outer Space

Come Sale Away With Me
Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,437
Was there this much anger over the Microsoft acquisitions? I don't remember much when an even bigger corporation acquired developers and have even seen threads about who Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo should acquire to keep from making games elsewhere. Is it just because it's Epic?
 

Detail

Member
Dec 30, 2018
2,949
I have a life outside of these threads and of Era in general. Please don't confuse me living it with packing up and AFKing because I was "called out" for stating an opinion of mine.

In terms of being called out on my BS, I'm not sure I follow. I said the most common thing I see is people only wanting Steam to exist, which is true. ResetEra is not the only place that this conversation is happening and I most commonly see a sentiment of "I don't want to download another game launcher" and "why do they need another market place when steam exists?"

I never stated that people don't have conversations about the business practices, I never said that the protests don't exist, I said the most common one I see is that they want only Steam to exist, which is true from what I've seen. It's my anecdotal experience.

Do you have any evidence of this? Because I can't remember anybody saying this on here?

I remember seeing (in every thread might I add) lots of people arguing against what EGS are doing based on lack of features, the fact they are buying up exclusives and limiting consumer choice and a myriad of other sensible and evidence based reasons but I don't remember seeing anything of what you have mentioned.

And if that does exist it is far outweighed by the things I have mentioned.

Just do what I do and now phase out of the actual meat in these discussions. It is clear Era has a tendency to flip flop on captialism while also defending social rights in the same sentence, with many of those posters just straight up ignoring the comments made before on these very topics of Epic and going straight for the tired old "but it is just a launcher/still on the same platform/defenders only want Steam as a monopoly!"

There honestly is no point bothering to respond to those coming in with drive by comments that have been repeated ad infinitum because they really don't care. They don't care about their consumer rights, they don't care about how Epic is essentially trying to own the PC platform as theirs, they don't care that the hypocrisy of Epic in claiming Steam is a monopoly then doing just that through scum exclusitivity or purchasing a dev then removing their game from Steam. No one who comments in the mindset as the one you quoted actually care about proper discussion, because everytime it is given to them on exactly why such issues are being raised against Epic they simply baulk at such issues and say it doesn't bother them and such concerns are childish.

Even with Jim Sterling finally realising the sheer toxicity that Epic is producing now with their platform it still doesn't sway opinion. People still see it as simply an .exe war when it is so far beyond that. To the point where Epic's claim of better developer revenue means in reality HIGHER price tags on games. Higher. Like $10 higher for US or here in Australia, now $100AUD for certain games.

But review bombing is childish, it is just an .exe and we should all grow up because Steam needs competition because it is a monopoly. Oh and think of the devs who are handpicked by Epic's selective curation and any off-the-street dev would actually be unable to appear on Epic's store and would actually be better off on Steam's curation system despite the constant barrage that it is broken because it lets shitty games come through that very quickly get pulled off or die in a corner (unless you look for them specifically).

Good post.
 

Alvis

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,262
Spain
Was there this much anger over the Microsoft acquisitions? I don't remember much when an even bigger corporation acquired developers and have even seen threads about who Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo should acquire to keep from making games elsewhere. Is it just because it's Epic?
Minecraft is still being sold on PS4. They allowed the Vita release to happen. They made a Switch version.

The Outer Worlds is still releasing on Steam and PS4.

Hellblade is getting a Switch version, the PS4 and Steam versions are not delisted. Microsoft has delisted 0 games following the acquisitions.

Valve acquired the Firewatch devs, is Firewatch still on GoG? Yes

Epic plans to delist this game, as evidenced by the Verge article and the wording they're using along the attitude of the SteamSpy dude.

Nobody else delists existing games following an acquisition. Only Epic.
 
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Sean Mirrsen

Banned
May 9, 2018
1,159
Yeah, I get that, but neither you nor I know whether or not people are happy or the opposite without having heard their voice. And talking on their behalf and lumping them together to fit your own narrative is, in my opinion, not the way to go.
True. Therefore, in lieu of talking on their behalf and directly addressing the dev/publisher/whathaveyou, why not simply put your opinion where the most people relevant to the issue are likely to see it? Not just the company itself and random people across the internet, but people who have given, or are considering giving their money to the company in question? Because reviews accomplish that. They are positioned in such a way that they're the only thing in user-controllable space that is almost impossible for other users of the product to miss, and thus impossible for the company in question to ignore, one way or another. Instead of driving your ire against other users, or speaking and thinking for them, you are giving them food for thought and information that they could otherwise have missed. On that alone, a review-bomb is a much more accurate approach, both letting the "angry mob" speak their mind without misrepresenting anyone, and letting the previously unaffected people form their own, informed opinions - possibly being driven to counteract the review-bomb in the process, with their own positive reviews after buying the product, and voting down the negative ones.

Was there this much anger over the Microsoft acquisitions? I don't remember much when an even bigger corporation acquired developers and have even seen threads about who Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo should acquire to keep from making games elsewhere. Is it just because it's Epic?
As regards developer acquisitions, yes, this is specifically because it's Epic. We know that them acquiring the developer is just a slightly less shady - and considerably more permanent - variant of the same exclusivity crap we've been getting from them the past few months. They're not doing this to help the developer, they're doing it primarily to get another popular game as an exclusive on their store, and any help the developer may receive in the future is entirely dependent on whether this whole business brings them any extra money worth mentioning.

Nobody else delists existing games following an acquisition. Only Epic. Try again.
I don't normally do this but come on. That last bit is uncalled for, and the entire reply reads better without it.
 

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
I never stated that people don't have conversations about the business practices, I never said that the protests don't exist, I said the most common one I see is that they want only Steam to exist, which is true from what I've seen. It's my anecdotal experience.

This is complete nonsense. I visit many pc focused communities on a regular basis and I haven't seen anyone claiming that they want a Steam monopoly.

I can't possibly understand how you and certain other journalists translate "we don't want store exclusivity deals for 3rd party games on pc" into "we are Steam fanboys and we only want Steam to exist".

If the latter was true, pc gamers would have been complaining about GoG and Itch as well. Which they don't. In fact, The Witcher 3 sold better on GoG than on Steam.
 
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