Why do you think that makes it the correct choice? The game isn't going to reward you for not hitting her, but that doesn't somehow mean that it's the correct choice just because your HP stayed higher from it
Persona 5 Royal keeps homophobic scenes of the original, adds even worse ones regarding Shiho
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Why do you think that makes it the correct choice? The game isn't going to reward you for not hitting her, but that doesn't somehow mean that it's the correct choice just because your HP stayed higher from it
I don't really agree with this. Again, I think the point of this part of the boss is that Kamoshida is using her knowing that the characters won't want to attack her. For the mechanics of the game to match this, it needs to put you at a disadvantage for doing the morally correct thing, and choosing to attack her goes out of its way to make you feel bad.
That's what the game is telling you by penalizing your whole party for not beating her up. If the characters at least acknowledged the fact that you didn't beat her even if it meant losing HP, then it would've been a different story. But as is, the only message the game is giving you is that you made a wrong choice and you lost HP.
I would've agreed with you on this if the morally right thing would've gotten any sort of acknowledgment from the game itself. In a game that you get insanely simple stuff repeatedly told to you over and over again, I don't think I can see how this one instance is where the developers decided to actually be subtle about how you made the right choice by not beating her without explicitly telling you that.
That's not really how that kind of choice works in any game. There are many games where making the morally right choice will hurt your HP, or damage your stats permanently in some way. You're penalized through the idea of sacrificing your own well being against the person that you're not attacking. The fact that you are going to take damage if you make the morally right call is a very common mechanic in games as it creates a more complex choice beyond "Do you want to hit your friend? Yes or no?"
There are a whole lot of ways to go about this. Right from the start, we're talking about a choice, but it doesn't have to be framed as a choice. It could have been that you were unable to attack - or attack without punishment - because Shiho is in the way. You could have been forced into a position of having to ride out being attacked until something changed.
I'm not particularly familiar with the game and its specifics, but just looking at other RPGs, I don't think these things are too unusual.
Again, I'm not too familiar, but could the design of the character's costume could be built to emphasize pain or objectification rather than to be a sexy costume? Could she have appeared but being made into a literal object; a tool like a weapon or a shield?
Like I said in my other post, if this was done in a game that had subtlety in other parts of it I would've been able to see it that way. Persona 5 is anything but subtle so if the intent of devs was to tell you that the right choice is to not beat Shiho in that situation, then I'm sure they would've acknowledged that (more than once even, knowing Persona 5) after you had decide to not attack her.
Also this:
I think that framing it as a choice is fine honestly. There is an argument to be made that the characters would still be able to hit her as they are capable of recognizing that the person that they're fighting is not the real Shiho, but an interpretation of how Kamoshida sees her. They can feel reluctant, and will express that in this version of the game, but are still capable of pushing through. There's also the argument that they're not willing to hit a version of their friend who just went through something so traumatic and tried to take her own life no matter what.
I think leaving that as a choice as pushing it out of the player's hands is a bit weird and would feel even more heavy handed which is one of the biggest complaints I see about this change.
The issue with turning her into a literal object is that every single student within Kamoshida's palace would have to be portrayed the same way. Kamoshida was seen as a hero of the school because he coaches some of the teams that do really well and brings in trophies and accolades. He physically abused multiple students, and is implied to have sexually assaulted more than one, with the intention of hurting others. These are all clearly seen throughout his palace where he sees himself as the literal King of the school and that the students should be grateful for what he does. If these were statues, then you wouldn't interact with the other abused students in the basement, or see the cognitive form of Ann that really hammers home just how disconnected Kamoshida is from the reality of his actions. Keep in mind that this is the first palace that you go into, and they want to make it distinctly clear how these people justify their own actions to themselves, and why the Phantom Thieves feel it's necessary to literally force someone to change.
The entire point of every single person within a palace is that they are how the owner of the palace sees them. It's gross and it's uncomfortable to see Shiho in this kind of outfit, but that is literally the point of it. I really can't get behind this idea that it was done for objectification's sake when the game so clearly goes out of its way to express how much the Phantom Thieves are grossed out by everything they see in there
Without knowing the full context behind the Cognitive Shiho confrontation, it's tough to really put my opinion on it. My initial reaction is: it's fine. As far as I know, within the context of the game, this is another fucked up projection conjured by the villain of this arc to screw with the cast. Its got the subtlety of a sledgehammer to the face, and of course from the outside looking in its going to look awful but if the game presents it properly (IE makes it clear this portrayal of someone in this situation is NOT okay) then I have no problem with including controversial things like this. It's tasteless, it's disturbing and it does a good job of making me hate Kamoshida even more.
With that said, I'd hate for it to be included for mere shock value, which I fear it is. I don't think the writers are trying to say anything other than "Kamoshida is a massive cunt" and the arguments there that we didn't need this inclusion. Kamoshidas arc is already the strongest arc tonally in the game. So I guess my final thoughts on it are: I understand (with my limited knowledge of the context of the scene) what it's aiming for, but I don't think it's needed and it's too heavy-handed. If this is what the new Persona writers are going to be like then oh boy.
Now I'm hovering over the post button. I think I've presented my point of view clearly, but there's always that hesitation when dealing with subjects like this. I want to be clear that I'm trying to understand it from within the games point of view, not from the outside looking in, because I always think context is the most important thing when it comes to things like this.
With that said, I'd hate for it to be included for mere shock value, which I fear it is. I don't think the writers are trying to say anything other than "Kamoshida is a massive cunt" and the arguments there that we didn't need this inclusion. Kamoshidas arc is already the strongest arc tonally in the game. So I guess my final thoughts on it are: I understand (with my limited knowledge of the context of the scene) what it's aiming for, but I don't think it's needed and it's too heavy-handed. If this is what the new Persona writers are going to be like then oh boy.
Now I'm hovering over the post button. I think I've presented my point of view clearly, but there's always that hesitation when dealing with subjects like this. I want to be clear that I'm trying to understand it from within the games point of view, not from the outside looking in, because I always think context is the most important thing when it comes to things like this.
Honestly don't see the big deal behind this. Persona 5 is among one of my favorite video games of all time and they never really went further with all the "sarcastically funny innuendos".
I'm gay and yes this is not how homosexuality should be portrayed but honestly none of this was never a big deal to me... maybe if all of this was part of the main stuff, which it ain't in the slightest.
I don't applaud Atlus for this but this won't tarnish my love for the game and past persona titles.
I'm gay and yes this is not how homosexuality should be portrayed but honestly none of this was never a big deal to me... maybe if all of this was part of the main stuff, which it ain't in the slightest.
I don't applaud Atlus for this but this won't tarnish my love for the game and past persona titles.
Interviewers should really grill the staff on these elements and changes. Ranting in the forums is one thing, but directly asking for greater sensitivity and more consistent writing from developers would make more sense.
Also vote with your wallet.
Also vote with your wallet.
The problem I have with this argument is it posits that because of the rules of the palace, which are an arbitrary thing the writers came up with and is not some set-in-stone bible, the only way to present Shiho in the palace is as a sexual object. Also, there are tons of media that are clearly meant to shock and disturb the audience in portraying sex/sexual abuse/rape, and objectify the person in the scene for the audience's sake. You can see it all the time in low grade horror. That's what this reminds me of. "Ooh, isn't this shocking and uncomfortable... but also kinda sexy, right? Right? Buy our figures of underage girls in skimpy outfits."
I am a big Persona 5 fan, you can see this in my avatar, but I don't feel like what they are accomplishing with this scene outweighs how unnecessary and tasteless it is.
I concur.
I feel like Shiho's addition to the boss battle is primarily as something to change the flow of the dramatic boss battles of P5 so Royal feels slightly different. The other Palace bosses have additions too. That the context of her addition is tasteless is a result of oversight but Cognition Ann already exists so Cognition Shiho is just re-emphasizing the point. It's redundant but it's not incongruent.
Besides Shiho, doesn't a fake Mishima also appear to assist Kamoshida? My impression of these changes is just Kamoshida using everyone he's abused, not just Shiho.
There aren't any.
There wasn't any figure of Ann's cognative form from Kamoshida's palace and there definitely won't be one for Shiho either. So please stop bringing up false pretext when attempting to make a point. It's rather annoying.
One more time for the people in the back: ATLUS' anti-LGBTQ2S+ goes back a long while.
That ATLUS decided to make 2019 their year of doubling down on their homophobia, transphobia and general hatred towards a marginalized group is a testament to how little they care about the LGBTQ2S+ community given how harmful their depictions and attitude towards members have been for decades. It wasn't okay when Persona 2 came out in Japan in 1999, and it sure as hell isn't okay now.
That ATLUS decided to make 2019 their year of doubling down on their homophobia, transphobia and general hatred towards a marginalized group is a testament to how little they care about the LGBTQ2S+ community given how harmful their depictions and attitude towards members have been for decades. It wasn't okay when Persona 2 came out in Japan in 1999, and it sure as hell isn't okay now.
The palace rules are arbitrary in the sense that someone created them, but they are the in-universe explanation for literally everything even in the base game. That is literally why you can have a version of Ann in Kamoshida's palace in a bikini fawning over him while the real Ann is a few feet away and disgusted by what she's seeing.
Based on the fact that other boss fights include people that you're close to as well, I think the line of thinking was more like this. "Who can we include at this point in the story that the Phantom Thieves know? And how would Kamoshida see this person?" Again going back to the version of Ann in Kamoshida's palace that was already there in the base game, as well as the many other abused students, Kamoshida would see Shiho in this way. It IS gross, it IS disturbing, and I feel like that's the impression that almost everyone is getting from it. This idea that people are finding this outfit or scene sexy is also gross and I'm not sure where you're pulling that from.
I was speaking in broad terms. Ann's Phantom Thief design can have figures bought of it, which was very much meant to sexualize a high school girl in an outfit she expresses discomfort in. It's one of the biggest black marks against the original game, in my mind.
Those people would not be posting on this forum openly about it or they would probably be banned. There is a market for the sexualization of these characters. You can buy DLC costumes to accentuate it, for one. It's an industry-wide problem. I was, again, speaking in broad terms. Putting this kind of stuff in media, in my opinion, with the usually careless and hypocritical hand that Atlus does it with, usually ends up encouraging this sexualization in media. It ultimately comes off as exploitative and redundant.
Dude, c'mon. Even if not these characters, P5 has a few figures posed like they're about to get it from behind
Lookit that zipper go!
There's very little doubt this game plays on sexualizing and fetishizing its female characters whether in-game or in figure form or whatever.
The plot twists in AI aren't quite as crazy as they were in 999 (maybe I'm just getting used to Uchikoshi's insane twists), however, the plot is always engaging with a ton of shocking, clever moments.
The way everything falls into place and makes sense at the very end is quite frankly brilliant considering how complex the plot ends up. In that regard I think it might even surpass 999. The character writing is extremely strong too.
All in all I'd put it right alongside 999.
Dude, c'mon. Even if not these characters, P5 has a few figures posed like they're about to get it from behind
Lookit that zipper go!
There's very little doubt this game plays on sexualizing and fetishizing its female characters whether in-game or in figure form or whatever.
As an outsider looking in these are definitely sex figures. I don't see how anyone could argue against this?
Imagine owning those figures. Even more disturbing considering the characters' ages. A person that owns those should be forced to post a sign in their yard. SMH.
"But the figures aren't sexual!"
Okay, then. Where's the Ryuji figure with his ass in the air, presenting? Eww.
Oh and before someone goes "But these are just figures!"Dude, c'mon. Even if not these characters, P5 has a few figures posed like they're about to get it from behind
Lookit that zipper go!
There's very little doubt this game plays on sexualizing and fetishizing its female characters whether in-game or in figure form or whatever.
Ann's is literally just her artwork.
I'm gay and it is a big deal to me? And while this may not be part of the "main stuff" of the game, the beach sequence is a mandatory part of your playthrough (can't remember about Shinjuku), so every player is gonna see it. Like, cool that you're inured to this kind of messy and problematic portrayal of LGBTQ people, but it's 2019 and I'm sick of it.
Makoto?Oh and before someone goes "But these are just figures!"
Ann's is literally just her artwork.
Not in the game as far as I remember but it's still an official figure.
Oh yeah, the poses for those figures are definitely aimed totally at sex appeal. No argument there. I'm hoping for some prize figures or cheaper articulated figures down the line for the crew that aren't sexualized.
I was just going after the comment as it was speaking as if the scene itself (Shiho in a bunny girl outfit) was itself there for figures to get made of it. That just wasn't true. There aren't going to be any figures or any merchandise of that scene.
I was just going after the comment as it was speaking as if the scene itself (Shiho in a bunny girl outfit) was itself there for figures to get made of it. That just wasn't true. There aren't going to be any figures or any merchandise of that scene.
I am among those who are playing Royal and while I'll stick with it for Japanese practice, it is still deeply frustrating that Atlus does stuff like this in pretty much every Persona game. You'd think that this series of all things would be more aware and respectful considering the themes at play, yet here we are.
Ann's trailer showed them hanging out in January so we'll have to wait till a streamer reaches that part
Goddammit Atlus! Was hoping Royal would have had that shit removed and it's apparently much worse now?! And am I reading this correctly: Atlus itself has had a long history of homophobia and transphobia? Just WTF?!
Yeah never did get P5 mostly since I had other commitments at the time and was looking forward to Royal. Now my interest in the game has stopped dead in its tracks. I still want to try the game out, so this is definitely going to be bought second hand.
Do something, Sega!
Yeah never did get P5 mostly since I had other commitments at the time and was looking forward to Royal. Now my interest in the game has stopped dead in its tracks. I still want to try the game out, so this is definitely going to be bought second hand.
Do something, Sega!
There is zero doubt that they just want to show you a sexy girl. This is the same game where the director denied some initial female character desing(s) because they weren't cute enough. They don't care about the message of their own game so long as they can show some sexy girls. With their past, I don't see any reason to give them the benefit of the doubt in this case.
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I mean considering that this is a sexualised version of someone literally living inside the abusers head, doesn't it just thematically make sense for the game to do this?
Kamoshida physically abuses Shiho constantly and enjoys it, so of course the cognitive version of her - the way he personally views her and wants her to be - would be sexualised and weak to physical attacks.
I'm not seeing the outrage here.
Rape is already an overused plot device (like, 90% of the time when male writers want to make women go through traumatic shit, it's rape, badly handled at that). To turn that into a moment to sexualize said rape victim (and offer the chance /some incentive to beat that rape victim as the player) is shitty, no matter how much you rationalize & justify it due to arbitrary plot reasons.
I honestly don't remember feeling the same way about the protagonists in P3 or P4 but I've become a lot less tolerant of that kind of thing in recent times. I suspect it would annoy me more if I went back and played them now, especially with Kanji/Yosuke in P4
Looks like I won't be buying this trash. Man, I'm so disappointed with Atlus.
While Makoto doesn't have art like that, Futaba does.
Ahhh, the classic ass and boob spinal twist pose.
So they took one of the most effective arcs in the game and took a big ol' dump on it.
Just great.
