Poland Defense Minister says they are ready to deport ukranian war refugees so they can be forcibly conscripted

[FizzMino]

I mean if you don't want to fight in a war to protect your home country from being destroyed and your people butchered than that is your decision and I think you should be able to say you don't want to be conscripted.

But that choice should come with the consequences of that choice. You don't want to fight to defend your way of life then you don't get to enjoy the comfort and safety of being a citizen of that country.

They aren't asking you to fight a foreign war in Iraq for oil, they are demanding their citizens to help them prevent the destruction of Ukraine.....

It seems like complete naivety and privledge to think you can just refuse to defend the things you hold dear because you don't want to fight.

 

[kyle mechlachlan]

But that choice should come with the consequences of that choice. You don't want to fight to defend your way of life then you don't get to enjoy the comfort and safety of being a citizen of that country.

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this is some starship troopers tier parody shit. suggesting that service should guarantee citizenship in any context is really bad, actually.

 

[Whales]

i cant agree with forcing refugees to go back and fight, they fled for a reason

 

[Volimar]

Service guarantees citizenship!

 

[Thordinson]

I mean if you don't want to fight in a war to protect your home country from being destroyed and your people butchered than that is your decision and I think you should be able to say you don't want to be conscripted.

But that choice should come with the consequences of that choice. You don't want to fight to defend your way of life then you don't get to enjoy the comfort and safety of being a citizen of that country.

They aren't asking you to fight a foreign war in Iraq for oil, they are demanding their citizens to help them prevent the destruction of Ukraine.....

It seems like complete naivety and privledge to think you can just refuse to defend the things you hold dear because you don't want to fight.

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You can't leave a person stateless so what would that entail exactly? But, yeah, Starship Troopers was parody, folks.

Also, generally, folks who don't want to fight to the point of leaving the country aren't exactly the ones who fight well so even if one thinks of it purely tactically, it's not the greatest thing.

 

[Small Red Boy]

Service guarantees citizenship!

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Incredible how everyday that movie becomes less of a parody.

 

[TripleBee]

I'd assume they can still turn down service, just that it means jail time. Which I think is fair. If you don't want to fight to protect your fellow citizen's freedoms - you don't deserve the freedoms of your fellow citizens.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

I think deporting people so that they can be conscripted feels wrong, but I don't understand people here being so against conscription in general. Obviously, it sucks and can be misused in unjust wars but it is also a reality of modern warfare. I know it's sort of cheap to refer to WWII but that war would not have been won without conscription. Should the Allies have let the cookie crumble because they could not win the war without instituting conscription? Telling people who think like this they should go and enlist is also sort of lame. If my country was getting invaded then I probably would accept being conscripted if I didn't volunteer first. Going across the globe to join an international legion is kind of different and it is obtuse to pretend otherwise.

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Its not weird to be against forcing people that dont want to fight to go fight.

I mean if you don't want to fight in a war to protect your home country from being destroyed and your people butchered than that is your decision and I think you should be able to say you don't want to be conscripted.

But that choice should come with the consequences of that choice. You don't want to fight to defend your way of life then you don't get to enjoy the comfort and safety of being a citizen of that country.

They aren't asking you to fight a foreign war in Iraq for oil, they are demanding their citizens to help them prevent the destruction of Ukraine.....

It seems like complete naivety and privledge to think you can just refuse to defend the things you hold dear because you don't want to fight.

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[Whales]

I'd assume they can still turn down service, just that it means jail time. Which I think is fair. If you don't want to fight to protect your fellow citizen's freedoms - you don't deserve the freedoms of your fellow citizens.

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what? that's crazy.

jail time for not wanting to participate in a war?

 

[AlgusUnderdunk]

Conscript the Polish defense minister, since they seem to like the idea so much.

 

[Landy828]

People that think any human being owes an allegiance to where they were born are weird to me.

No soul owes any allegiance to a government or land mass. Once you're dead, that's it. You don't get another chance. If your choice is to try and avoid that and take yourself or family and GTFO, then that should be your choice and no-one should be able to force you to do the opposite. The entire situation sucks, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with self preservation where there's no ill-intent.

 

[Xando]

Also, generally, folks who don't want to fight to the point of leaving the country aren't exactly the ones who fight well so even if one thinks of it purely tactically, it's not the greatest thing.

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Getting conscripted doesn't mean you get sent to the frontline. Ukrainians are also in desperate need for people to work in the industry to increase production of munitions and weapons.

They have plenty of instructors to decide who is fit to join combat troops and who is of better use in production, logistics or whatever other roles they have.

 

[KastuśKalinoŭski]

Countries should not force their citizens to fight. If citizens want to fight? Go for it.

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In a perfect world.

But, hypothetically, by using that approach how do you stop something like Nazi Germany during WWII. You know, reality was that despite all propaganda even many Soviets didn't want to fight, about 3 mln troops surrendered by the end of 1941 and a lot of collaborated on occupied territories, so if not forced – USSR would definitely loose it. And you know what would happen next. So choice was like - you fight and maybe you survive, or you likely die later (see Generalplan Ost) .

 

[horkrux]

Join the Brave

International Legion for the Defence of Ukraine formed by Presidential decree right after the outbreak of full-scale russian invasion, the Legion has taken part in the majority of the crucial campaigns and battles of the war. The International Legion consists of infantry and special task...

ildu.com.ua

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it might be outdated and things have changed, but there had been reports of inexperienced volunteers being turned away.
not to speak of how much of a liability you would be to more seasoned soldiers joining the legion

 

[BringBackSonics]

Getting conscripted doesn't mean you get sent to the frontline. Ukrainians are also in desperate need for people to work in the industry to increase production of munitions and weapons.

They have plenty of instructors to decide who is fit to join combat troops and who is of better use in production, logistics or whatever other roles they have.

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This is a great point

 

[SeroTyler]

I mean if you don't want to fight in a war to protect your home country from being destroyed and your people butchered than that is your decision and I think you should be able to say you don't want to be conscripted.

But that choice should come with the consequences of that choice. You don't want to fight to defend your way of life then you don't get to enjoy the comfort and safety of being a citizen of that country.

They aren't asking you to fight a foreign war in Iraq for oil, they are demanding their citizens to help them prevent the destruction of Ukraine.....

It seems like complete naivety and privledge to think you can just refuse to defend the things you hold dear because you don't want to fight.

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I see you've already been told your views line up with that of a sci-fi parody aimed at teenage boys multiple times, hopefully that sticks some.

 

[Alavard]

it might be outdated and things have changed, but there had been reports of inexperienced volunteers being turned away.
not to speak of how much of a liability you would be to more seasoned soldiers joining the legion

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Conscripts would also generally be similarly inexperienced.

 

[Thordinson]

Getting conscripted doesn't mean you get sent to the frontline. Ukrainians are also in desperate need for people to work in the industry to increase production of munitions and weapons.

They have plenty of instructors to decide who is fit to join combat troops and who is of better use in production, logistics or whatever other roles they have.

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Sure but if they don't want to do that, they shouldn't either.

In a perfect world.

But, hypothetically, by using that approach how do you stop something like Nazi Germany during WWII. You know, reality was that despite all propaganda even many Soviets didn't want to fight, about 3 mln troops surrendered by the end of 1941 and a lot of collaborated on occupied territories, so if not forced – USSR would definitely loose it. And you know what would happen next. So choice was like - you fight and maybe you survive, or you likely die later (see Generalplan Ost) .

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There were many that wanted to fight. Telling me that 3 million didn't and many more collaborated shows me that conscription doesn't exactly win wars. It shows me that conscription doesn't work when folks really don't want to fight.

it might be outdated and things have changed, but there had been reports of inexperienced volunteers being turned away.
not to speak of how much of a liability you would be to more seasoned soldiers joining the legion

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This would be the same for inexperienced conscripts though.

 

[Koukalaka]

what? that's crazy.

jail time for not wanting to participate in a war?

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Are you familiar with how conscription has worked historically? For it to work you can't really just be allowed to say "nah I'm good".

 

[TheGummyBear]

I'd assume they can still turn down service, just that it means jail time. Which I think is fair. If you don't want to fight to protect your fellow citizen's freedoms - you don't deserve the freedoms of your fellow citizens.

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I don't understand how having the choice to avoid military service by sitting in jail makes deporting refugees back to Ukraine fair at all.

 

[charmeleon]

it might be outdated and things have changed, but there had been reports of inexperienced volunteers being turned away.
not to speak of how much of a liability you would be to more seasoned soldiers joining the legion

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I'm gonna go ahead and guess they will take pretty much any volunteer when conscripting refugees is being talked about.

 

[Whales]

Are you familiar with how conscription has worked historically? For it to work you can't really just be allowed to say "nah I'm good".

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did it also include people who are abroad/that have fled to other countries?

genuine question

 

[MidweekCoyote]

Also, generally, folks who don't want to fight to the point of leaving the country aren't exactly the ones who fight well.

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Exactly. Ukraine currently has manpower issues and that is a legitimate problem but on a purely practical standpoint you will not get good soldiers if motivation isn't there.

The discussion, however, then shifts to expanding the pool within Ukraine itself in the long term and possibly with full conscription equality. The natural target of these would, of course, be women and older men. But then then even more uncomfortable questions rise up. Would you, as a politician or an officer, willingly send women to fight against an army with Russia's reputation, especially with how they treat people in captivity? If not, is industry the place you utilize them, like Xando mentioned?

It is not a simple discussion and there are no absolutes.

 

[Corum Jhaelen Irsei]

As I Pole this is a difficult situation. I would probably be conscripted if the war would get to us, and that sucks big time.

There are a lot of growing resentment to Ukrainians in Poland right now. There a re a lot of Ukrainians working everywhere, like a cashier in a 7/11 equivalent that I visit before my job. But there are also many men riding around in really fancy, expensive cars with Ukrainian plates.
To be fair, in ther shoes i would probably run with my kid and partner as well, but... It's a crappy situation.

 

[Addie]

If and when they actually ask for this, it means Ukraine probably has no choice, and Poland should adhere to international law concerning bona fide refugees (i.e., not expat Ukrainians living in Poland). I can understand conscription when facing an existential threat and simultaneously understand not wanting to participate: we collectively learned that after several conflicts, including World War I.

I'm not categorically against conscription of non-refugees, but placing someone who doesn't want to be there in certain positions risks their life, as well as other lives and the mission. Conscription for other functions in the face of an existential threat? Well, I simply think conscription is largely ineffective and should be avoided whenever possible, but there might be limited situations where it's value-added.

(And no, I can't directly fight for Ukraine, though I can say I've helped in my own way.)

 

[Koukalaka]

did it also include people who are abroad/that have fled to other countries?

genuine question

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Dunno, probably depends - and I think those that were already abroad before were fine to stay, but it's worth noting it was technically illegal for adult men below a certain age to leave the country when the war started.

 

[ArjanN]

Translation: "we'd love to deport refugees instead of having to help them"

 

[P-MAC]

i cant agree with forcing refugees to go back and fight, they fled for a reason

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That's not happening though, at all. Poland just said they would help with it. Ukraine haven't even properly started mobilising the people at home yet and haven't suggested they would ever ask for this.

It's thinly veiled refugee hate. Nothing more.

 

[Thordinson]

Translation: "we'd love to deport refugees instead of having to help them"

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Essentially. This isn't about helping Ukraine.

 

[LinkStrikesBack]

War sucks but there is no other choice. When you get conscripted, you go fight for your country. If Russia wins we'll all suffer and there's going to be no place to hide.

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Easy to say this from the safety of a keyboard when you're not the one having to go die in a ditch somewhere after a drone you couldn't even see takes you out.

If other western countries really believe the war is that important for the future, then they should be committing actual armies/navies/air forces to it, because they're going to have to eventually in your scenario and we might as well save the Ukrainians now then anyway.

 

[j7vikes]

nice try. Ukraine isn't accepting foreign volunteers with no military training.
Does this forum want Russia to win?

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Believing people shouldn't be forced to fight for a piece of land doesn't equal wanting Russia to win and it's crazy that you would land on that if someone didn't support this.

A whole host of horrific things have been done to people throughout history with "we're at war" being the justification. If people want to go fight for their country let them do so. If people don't want to fight don't force them.

I'm curious why you are fine with saying these people should be forced to fight? Meanwhile you're explaining to people why you didn't like a video game.

Is play less Zelda go fight against Russia something you plan on doing yourself?

 

[Divvy]

This is just an attempt to scare refugees into leaving Poland.

Conscription is a bad option, but countries staring down existential annihilation may only have bad options so I dunno. Shit sucks. Fuck Putin

 

[FizzMino]

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Maybe I've been playing too much Helldivers 2.....

I still stand by my point. It seems absurd to refuse to defend your home from complete destruction because you think it will just go away or you can just run away somewhere else. This isn't some make believe sci-fi movie, and I get it, it's funny to post memes on an internet forum.

But you know, Ukraine is actually being destroyed and over run by a crazy dictatorship so being told you need to help defend that as a Ukrainian doesn't really line up to a goofy bug movie from 30 years ago.

"You can't force me to fight, it's not right." sounds really good and noble, until you are living under the rule of a fascist government that kills journalists and gay people for fun.

 

[LinkStrikesBack]

Maybe I've been playing too much Helldivers 2.....

I still stand by my point. It seems absurd to refuse to defend your home from complete destruction because you think it will just go away or you can just run away somewhere else. This isn't some make believe sci-fi movie, and I get it, it's funny to post memes on an internet forum.

But you know, Ukraine is actually being destroyed and over run by a crazy dictatorship so being told you need to help defend that as a Ukrainian doesn't really line up to a goofy bug movie from 30 years ago.

"You can't force me to fight, it's not right." sounds really good and noble, until you are living under the rule of a fascist government that kills journalists and gay people for fun.

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Put it this way; if you think it's so noble a cause that they should all be willing to die for, why aren't you in Ukraine in one of the foreign legions right now?

 

[KastuśKalinoŭski]

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[Thordinson]

Maybe I've been playing too much Helldivers 2.....

I still stand by my point. It seems absurd to refuse to defend your home from complete destruction because you think it will just go away or you can just run away somewhere else. This isn't some make believe sci-fi movie, and I get it, it's funny to post memes on an internet forum.

But you know, Ukraine is actually being destroyed and over run by a crazy dictatorship so being told you need to help defend that as a Ukrainian doesn't really line up to a goofy bug movie from 30 years ago.

"You can't force me to fight, it's not right." sounds really good and noble, until you are living under the rule of a fascist government that kills journalists and gay people for fun.

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But you can live somewhere and not go. That's what makes one a refugee.

I don't think anyone is saying what's happening in Ukraine is good here. I think we all understand that.

 

[FizzMino]

Put it this way; if you think it's so noble a cause that they should all be willing to die for, why aren't you in Ukraine in one of the foreign legions right now?

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You'll notice I said defending your home like 17 times in my two posts. I'm not saying I think people should be conscripted for foreign wars.

But when people are actively trying to take your country by force, I think you should be willing to defend that home.

And I'm not Ukrainian. (also I'm old as shit even by conscription standards lol)

 

[Netherscourge]

Why would you want an army of unwilling fighters in the first place?

How do you expect to win a war with that army?

Why not give huge incentives to those who volunteer instead?

 

[ScoutDave]

Self preservation for oneself and their family is more important to some than the soil they were born on. They would rather take their chances in another country. People should not be forced to kill other people. It sucks for Ukraine... Doesnt seem like an easy solution is at hand.

 

[Xando]

Why not give huge incentives to those who volunteer instead?

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Yes, I also wonder why Ukraine, a country that has been on the verge of bankruptcy several times since the war doesn't throw billions at people living the good life in the EU while the ones actually living in ukraine live with shortages and poverty.

 

[Whales]

You'll notice I said defending your home like 17 times in my two posts. I'm not saying I think people should be conscripted for foreign wars.

But when people are actively trying to take your country by force, I think you should be willing to defend that home.

And I'm not Ukrainian. (also I'm old as shit even by conscription standards lol)

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yeah but the people who have fled at this point decided that they'd rather live in a new home (as refugees) than defend their current one

just like im sure many ukrainians decided they would much rather defend their home than flee to a new one

 

[Wicdor]

Why would you want an army of unwilling fighters in the first place?

How do you expect to win a war with that army?

Why not give huge incentives to those who volunteer instead?

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Because there is not enough volunteer.

 

[Koukalaka]

Why would you want an army of unwilling fighters in the first place?

How do you expect to win a war with that army?

Why not give huge incentives to those who volunteer instead?

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IIRC pay is good by Ukrainian standards for those in military service - that was over a year ago so I'm not sure if things have changed.

 

[rezuth]

Essentially. This isn't about helping Ukraine.

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I wouldn't wanna do it but its pretty fucking hard to deny that more people wouldn't be helping Ukraine.

 

[Thordinson]

I wouldn't wanna do it but its pretty fucking hard to deny that more people wouldn't be helping Ukraine.

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Hmm? Poland wanting to deport Ukrainians for conscription has much less to do with helping Ukraine and more more to do with not having to deal with refugees.

 

[Spesi]

It's fucked up, but as long as other countries aren't supporting Ukraine enough, it's not up to me or these countries to judge this. We're literally talking about existential threat to this country.

 

[rezuth]

Hmm? Poland wanting to deport Ukrainians for conscription has much less to do with helping Ukraine and more more to do with not having to deal with refugees.

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Prove it.

 

[mugurumakensei]

Important to note Poland and Lithuania are doing this on the back of Ukraine passing a conscription mobilization law

Ukrainian president signs controversial law to boost conscription to fend off Russia's aggression

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has signed a controversial law, days after it was passed by parliament, potentially helping Kyiv to boost conscription to replenish depleted forces to fend off Russia’s continued aggression.

apnews.com

 

[Thordinson]

Prove it.

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Here's a Polish poster saying there is anti-Ukrainian sentiment growing:

As I Pole this is a difficult situation. I would probably be conscripted if the war would get to us, and that sucks big time.

There are a lot of growing resentment to Ukrainians in Poland right now. There a re a lot of Ukrainians working everywhere, like a cashier in a 7/11 equivalent that I visit before my job. But there are also many men riding around in really fancy, expensive cars with Ukrainian plates.
To be fair, in ther shoes i would probably run with my kid and partner as well, but... It's a crappy situation.

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[Nepenthe]

But when people are actively trying to take your country by force, I think you should be willing to defend that home.

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No government is owed the lives of its citizenry. If people choose to fight in a defensive war, that's their business. If people choose to flee from that war, that's also their business.