User warned: trolling
Fair enough, you don't feel the need to fight for Ukrainian existence. Why would you expect other people to?
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Poland Defense Minister says they are ready to deport ukranian war refugees so they can be forcibly conscripted
- Thread starter AcademicSaucer
- Start date
What are you even going on about, I JUST stated that I had already posted that in this thread?
It's right there in the post you just quoted. Offering an alternate and arguably worse punishment doesn't change what I already said....
If you hate your home so much that you wouldn't mind it being destroyed, your friends, family and neighbors killed or worse then why would you be upset about being told after the fact that you aren't welcome there anymore?
Like we are arguing that people can abandon their home but they should also want to stay there as citizens after the fact? Which is it do they care about where they live or not?
It's not a about piece of land:
Child abductions in the Russo-Ukrainian War - Wikipedia
Ukraine: Rape and torture by Russian forces continuing, rights experts report
Russian forces in Ukraine faced new allegations of war crimes on Monday as UN-appointed independent rights experts published the findings of their latest report into Russia’s full-scale invasion of its neighbour.
Understood! Would you say it's a simple binary? There is never an excuse for a mandatory conscription?
For me, yes. I don't believe in it. I get why other folks do, I really do. But I can't agree that forcibly sending folks to fight and die is good. It's especially hard to agree with if the person is an oppressed minority in the country that conscripts them.
Aee you trying to say the only way to care about where you live is to be willing to die for it?
People that believe that it's necessary at times likely don't believe it's good.
That's fair but I can't ask or be okay with folks being forced to fight and die in a war that I'm not fighting.
10/4 and breaking it down to the basics is appreciated! I wanted to ensure that there were no crossed wires or blatant misinterpretations.
I maintain my stance that no matter what, without an ideal world suddenly becoming reality, it all fucking sucks and the only "right" answer is the one that results in a lesser toll by the end of it all. Which is a basic ass opinion at the end of the day but I don't know what else to say. The calculus of warfare is deeply, deeply fucked. There is never an objectively correct decision for the defenders.
War is horrible so I can empathize with anyone trying to avoid fighting it. I'm against conscription as a general rule, but I do understand that sometimes it's necessary. Sometimes, horrible situations don't have any good answers.
This is a ridiculous characterization. Hating your government has nothing to do with how you feel about the people in that country, nor does it have anything to do what you feel is best for the long term future of yourself and your family. Are Central and South American refugees just psychopaths now who should be made stateless, or even jailed, for not staying to help fight the violence plaguing their homes?
Yes. Fleeing a war is not the same thing as renouncing your citizenship. What is wrong with you?
I think if you've left the country, say for example pre-war to live, work and stay in another country, you should not have to be conscripted.
If that means your citizenship is taken away from Ukraine, so be it. I'd rather personally, in that situation work toward my citizenship in the country I was already trying to.
Imagine immigrants anywhere around the world who've tried to start a life somewhere else suddenly get that ripped away from them.
My parents moved from one place to another, permanently. They should not have to fight in their home country if they've essentially completely moved away from any benefit of it.
If that means your citizenship is taken away from Ukraine, so be it. I'd rather personally, in that situation work toward my citizenship in the country I was already trying to.
Imagine immigrants anywhere around the world who've tried to start a life somewhere else suddenly get that ripped away from them.
My parents moved from one place to another, permanently. They should not have to fight in their home country if they've essentially completely moved away from any benefit of it.
Yeah, I agree that conscription is a bad thing in principle. However this is pretty much the only circumstance where I think it has a just basis.
I'm glad we cleared it up.
I get your stance even if we disagree. I don't think anyone with the stance is a bad person or anything. I'm just ardently anti-war and I accept all that comes with the position.
This is a bit disingenuous I feel. The appropriate counter-factual would be to ask 'Well, if your county was being invaded with your fellow citiizens raped, murdered, killed and being ethnically cleansed with the ultimate goal of being absorbed into that invading colonising power, would you agree with adopting conscription there?'.
Yeah, some posts in a few threads recently have thrown up a lot of red flags for me.
Last edited:
Yes, Era has been infiltrated by all the…anti-war and anti-conscription agents?
What is citizenship but a piece of paper if you are not there when you were needed, their country might cease to exist, what are you citizen of then?
I understand the decision, I think that forcing then back shouldn't be legal but if they decide to stay away it should be up to those who stayed to decide if they will ever be welcome back.
Which posts in this thread are anti-war? Could you point them out please?
People should be able to make their own choices here. If someone doesn't want to die fighting for Ukraine (or any other country), then they shouldn't be forced to.
Russia's invasion of Ukraine is terrible and should be stopped but, its way way easier to say that on video game forum 1,000s of miles away from the conflict, than it is to be directly faced with the prospect of having to die for that cause.
Russia's invasion of Ukraine is terrible and should be stopped but, its way way easier to say that on video game forum 1,000s of miles away from the conflict, than it is to be directly faced with the prospect of having to die for that cause.
This action would be pretty stupid, the last thing any soldier wants is to share a trench with a guy who really does not want to be there, both in heart and mind. I do however understand why Ukraine would want something like this to happen as it boosts manpower at the front line and allows more rotation of soldiers keeping up general morale. Recently things have been looking a bit dire for Ukraine so I get why they are deciding to go this far.
Mine.
Ukraine can defend itself all it wants. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with conscription.
Folks saying that others should fight for their neighbor and that won't fight for Ukraine, who is their literal neighbor often times, because it's not their flag slapped on their uniform while telling me it's not about flags and land but people are hypocritical to me.
I think most of us are. However the poster's response was conflating the 'anti-subscription' posts in this thread with people being 'anti-war'. The only context I have heard this in is in parroting Kremlin lines regarding Ukraine signing a truce or the West supposedly facilitating further war via military support for Ukraine.
What is your citizenship when you get your head blown off?
I'm not sure how forcing them back is the rub here but allowing citizens to take the citizenship of others is fine. Regardless, if Ukraine wanted to render all refugees stateless, that's an interesting choice. Theirs to make, but I wouldn't agree with it.
Flags and land are markers of nation states. Ukraine are in a fight for national self-determination, if not existence.
How is Ukraine using conscription antithetical to Ukraine defending itself?
If you were referring to your own contributions why did you instead gesture to some unidentified cohort of 'anti-war ... agents'?
I am aware of what flags represent. But the flag ultimately doesn't matter, as I've been told, because we should fight for our neighbors. Well, Ukraine has a lot of neighbors not fighting for it who are apparently telling Ukrainians to do so against their will.
It's not antithetical. I'm not arguing Ukraine is being hypocritical.
Most of the people who said that also included "friends and family' along with neighbors. I think it was obvious they were talking about the actual human connections of people you know literally. Not that the country is next to yours.
Ok, on this last point, you agree that Ukraine has the right to introduce conscription without criticism from what you've put forward. Am I right in assuming you just don't like the discourse on here around it then? Otherwise I'm unsure on your argument.
I don't blame Ukraine for trying to conscript soldiers, but I don't blame anyone who fled not wanting to come back and fight and likely die. Shitty of Poland to force them back if that happens.
Also what is with the "Service guarantees citizenship" style posts from some folks, real weird.
Also what is with the "Service guarantees citizenship" style posts from some folks, real weird.
Situation is pretty dire for Ukraine, and not just because US had its head up their own ass about support package. Ukraine needs a lot more soldiers and people just aren't volunteering anymore. It's why they finally passed laws regarding mass mobilization, but Ukraine hasn't asked any country to deport Ukrainian men back into Ukraine. First we will see Ukraine doing domestic mass scale mobilization.
Hopefully front just holds long enough.
And it's coming from people who either can't fight or are unwilling to fight. Is this war a threat against Western civilization or not?
Any country has the right to introduce conscription, doesn't mean you have to agree with it.
I don't agree. I'm fairly certain they are talking about neighbors as in folks in your country as we are talking about folks who got out often with their families.
I've not said Ukraine can't do it. I've said I don't agree with it.
I don't like conscription. I don't like war.
Odd because I've not said anything about Ukraine signing a truce or that the West just want more war for money.
The Kremlin ain't paying me to post on Resetera of all places. You can rest easy.
They pay me to post on TikTok. ;)
I live in Finland and without conscription we wouldn't have large enough standing military to create believable force for holding off Russia in case shit hit the fan. Not every country has luxury of not having conscription.
As Finnish, I'm personally:
- living 41 miles from Russian border with my family
- in a country that has 5,6 million people
- that has been invaded by Russia before
- that is being threatened every day by some Russian madman in the news
I would be Russian today if conscription didn't force my grandfather and others to fight in 1939 and I'm very thankful for their sacrifice.
I understand the viewpoints, but not all countries have the luxury of being far away with a nuclear arsenal protecting them, and massive population to draw volunteers from.
You don't have to "hate" your country to not want to fight for it in a certain circumstance, that is super binary thinking.
I could perhaps be reading them wrong, but my neighbors aren't part of my family and I still know who they are. I consider my neighbors to be people in my neighborhood, who live on my block and conversate with me, invite you over, etc. Not Canadians (I'm in the US).
But I'll let other people clarify their own statements I guess.
Oh okay. My mistake then.
Exactly.
That's fair. I may be misinterpreting it.
Though, if it's such a threat that other folks wish their country would intervene, why does it matter what flag they wear and who is in command when they do? Imagine that's the least of Ukraine's worries as it fights for survival.
User warned: sniping at other members
The pro-presription sentiment in this thread is fucking disgusting. No one should have to be forced to die in a war.
Shame on everyone who says otherwise. Disgusting.
Shame on everyone who says otherwise. Disgusting.
I don't think any decent person does like war. Or conscription, pretty clearly, but they can understand the argument for it being deployed in a war of invasion by a colonialising nuclear power intent on ethnic cleansing. Why can't you?
Odd because no one else has either. Something on your mind?
The Kremlin don't pay many people, they rely on well intentioned but misguided naïfs to do most of the heavy lifting for them.
The world as it is accepts that your manner of birth and location is a deciding factor for your lot in life, that's all this is, I don't think a draft is an accepted reason for political asylum either.
Not to mention that the people able to flee are often the rich while the poor people are stuck at war.
Not to mention that the people able to flee are often the rich while the poor people are stuck at war.
This. It's easy to grandstand with high morale's and ignore the realities of the world.
Without a forced draft in WW2 half of this forum would be speaking German or just outright dead for being Jewish, black or gay.
Think I'm gonna move on though, nothing to be won in this thread.
Yes Ukraine is under attack from Russia. No, not all Ukranians should have to risk losing their lives because of it - even if many did stay or fight or were forced to stay and forced to fight a person only has one life and they shouldn't be forced to do anything that puts them in any danger if they don't choose to do it themselves.
Joining a war should be a personal choice regardless of what is better overall for the country at hand. Forcing people into war is wrong at every level. In this case forcing people back into war who have already given up everything, giving up their homes and lives in Ukraine to avoid it is absolutely unforgivable and disgusting.
Imagine if you'd given everything to leave your home country to flee a war and you get forced away from your families to go fight in a war you shouldn't have to and you lose your life in doing so. Think of what it will do to these people and their families. It's despicable regardless of the circumstances.
Are you not reading my posts? I'm genuinely confused here because I had a back and forth with another poster talking about how I can understand why folks feel it's good or right but I don't agree with it.
Just in case I haven't been clear: I understand why conscription exists, why folks agree with/think it's okay, and that Ukraine has the right to do this. I don't agree with conscription.
Hmm? You said you've only heard of folks being anti-war in that context by repeating Kremlin lines. You brought up the Kremlin, the West wanting more war, etc. Not me, friend.
I imagine you are trying some sort of "gotcha" moment as you asked me about Ukrainian aid as well.
I'll make things more clear here: Fuck Russia and Fuck Putin. We good?
I can't even begin to articulate my loathing and disgust for every pro-draft opinion. Adjustment disgusting. Disgusting. Disgusting. Disgusting.