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LinkStrikesBack

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,415
Neither side can win so instead of sending men to there death I would rather the two sides talk to end this war.

Diplomacy doesn't work when one side wants to commit genocide. Treating the situation as one that can be talked out is naïve at best and only going to get many more killed in the long run.

Reaching a relative stalemate and other countries treating that as an ok resolution is how Ukraine ended up in this mess to begin with
 

Sharpeye

Member
Oct 25, 2017
354
New Jersey
Neither side can win so instead of sending men to there death I would rather the two sides talk to end this war.

You cannot appease Russia, they did not stop at Chechnya, they did not stop at Georgia, they did not stop at Crimea, and they will not stop until they have the rest of Ukraine. They will go beyond Ukraine if they win this war.

The bottom line is that your asking Ukraine to give up their land, let their people suffer in occupation and allow Russia to lick their wounds and restart the war when they recover years later.

Appeasement and peace talks did not work for Hitler, it will not work for Putin.
 

Wicdor

Member
Feb 27, 2018
105
Putin isn't interested in peace negotiations. His goal is full extermination of Ukraine.

Diplomacy doesn't work when one side wants to commit genocide. Treating the situation as one that can be talked out is naïve at best and only going to get many more killed in the long run.

Reaching a relative stalemate and other countries treating that as an ok resolution is how Ukraine ended up in this mess to begin with

You cannot appease Russia, they did not stop at Chechnya, they did not stop at Georgia, they did not stop at Crimea, and they will not stop until they have the rest of Ukraine. They will go beyond Ukraine if they win this war.

The bottom line is that your asking Ukraine to give up their land, let their people suffer in occupation and allow Russia to lick their wounds and restart the war when they recover years later.

Appeasement and peace talks did not work for Hitler, it will not work for Putin.

Lets say it happens. What makes you think Putin would respect outcome for long?
Don't waste your time he is been banned before defending the fucking houthis.
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,477
You cannot appease Russia, they did not stop at Chechnya, they did not stop at Georgia, they did not stop at Crimea, and they will not stop until they have the rest of Ukraine. They will go beyond Ukraine if they win this war.

The bottom line is that your asking Ukraine to give up their land, let their people suffer in occupation and allow Russia to lick their wounds and restart the war when they recover years later.

Appeasement and peace talks did not work for Hitler, it will not work for Putin.

No I am looking at a war no side will win and plenty of young men dead. Sending more to die (both sides) isnt the answer.

I hugely dislike hearing western politicians talk about how supporting Ukraine with weapons is great value for money as no soldiers from these countries need to die. Well there are plenty from Ukraine who have to die and more will die yet these politicians want to talk about 'value for money'.

Sending any refugee back to fight when they have no desire pick up arms would be beyond stupid as well as morally wrong.
 

RetroRunner

Member
Dec 6, 2020
4,943
No I am looking at a war no side will win and plenty of young men dead. Sending more to die (both sides) isnt the answer.

I hugely dislike hearing western politicians talk about how supporting Ukraine with weapons is great value for money as no soldiers from these countries need to die. Well there are plenty from Ukraine who have to die and more will die yet these politicians want to talk about 'value for money'.

Sending any refugee back to fight when they have no desire pick up arms would be beyond stupid as well as morally wrong.
What's your answer then?
 

NetMapel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,454
I dont have one other than try and talk to each other to end this. I am no Putin fan. What he did in Chechnya and Aleppo was nothing short of mass killing and that alone should see him in the Hague however I certainly dont want to see any Ukrainian or Russian forced to fight.
No Ukrainian solders want to be fighting right now. They're forced to fight because of Russia and no other reasons. If Russia leaves Ukraine tomorrow, nobody will be forced to fight.
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,477
No Ukrainian solders want to be fighting right now. They're forced to fight because of Russia and no other reasons. If Russia leaves Ukraine tomorrow, nobody will be forced to fight.

I agree and Ukraine has every right to resist an invasion. My concern is in two years time nothing has changed other than more dead bodies as no side will "win". I really didnt mean to trigger anyone, I just want to see this war and others end.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,594
I agree and Ukraine has every right to resist an invasion. My concern is in two years time nothing has changed other than more dead bodies as no side will "win". I really didnt mean to trigger anyone, I just want to see this war and others end.

After two years of this war such a statement is either extremely ignorant to the reality of the situation or blatant russian propaganda.

But let's assume it's well intentioned ignorance.
The only way this war ends here and now is if Ukraine capitulates to Putin and agrees to be ethnically cleansed so that "Peace" can be restored. That's the talks you are proposing.
Peace now means genocide of the Ukrainian people and further wars of imperialist expansion in a few years.
Peace now means giving Russia time to re-arm and to kill many many more people.
 

Kain-Nosgoth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,660
Switzerland
I would be very angry if my country was starting to send back refugees to fight... We had refugees from all over the world, all fleeing war and mysery, and i worked directly with some of them... Should they all be forced to go back to defend something, with a lot of them garanteed to be sent to their death? Tat's disgusting for me

Why should a man who left with his family to be with them, provide for them and so on, be send back to fight and mabye leaving his children as orphans? If you're so much in need of people to defend the country then draft women too... Obviously i don't want that, i'm against the draft period

I get that there's a high chance of losing more by not drafting people, but even then, you shouldn't be forced to fight just because you were born there, or born a certain gender
 

Addie

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,776
DFW
I agree and Ukraine has every right to resist an invasion. My concern is in two years time nothing has changed other than more dead bodies as no side will "win". I really didnt mean to trigger anyone, I just want to see this war and others end.
The only way it ends quickly is through overwhelming force applied to either belligerent's centers of gravity, which induces capitulation. The "best" thing that would happen is for Putin to die of natural causes tomorrow. The next "best" thing would be for Ukraine to successfully eliminate as many Russian C2 assets as possible. Obviously, in two years, there's been a relative stalemate -- which was wholly unexpected, and in no small measure due to Ukrainian resilience.

There will be no negotiations.

What would they even look like?

Formally ceding de jure control of Crimea and all territory east of the Dnieper to Russia, in exchange for a promise that they won't come back for the rest of Ukraine in a few years? At that point, what does the world tell Poland?

Thinking negotiations will solve a Russian invasion is incongruent with military reality. You only have to look at history to view countless examples of how conflicts end: some kind of surrender. Belligerents don't simply mutually abandon their objectives and talk to each other. This isn't sparring. It's a question of whether Russia will be deterred from further aggression or Ukraine will be ethnically cleansed (at worst) or annexed and diminished as a people and culture (at best).

Ukraine can win this war, even if it's a war of attrition that culminates in Putin's fall from power and a Russian withdrawal. And it will be at great cost. The alternative is worse. The entire world, not just the Western world, has everything to gain from a constrained Russia (as long as Putin and Putin cronies hold power).
 
Feb 24, 2018
5,296
To clarify, I completely understand opposition to the draft too, and have said as much repeatedly. I just don't agree with painting those defending the idea of Ukraine using conscripts as evil and disgusting or whatever.
I wouldn't call them evil and didn't mean to suggest otherwise in my reply, I'd call it desperation given how long and drawn the war has become and the lack of resources.

What I would call disgusting was the attitudes earlier in the thread where users were suggesting people who fled should have their statehood removed or not be welcomed back or were being very quick to just toss those people into the fighting, treating them as tools rather than people.
 

LinkStrikesBack

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,415
I cant guarantee it but like I said I just want to see an end to this war

You won't see an end to the war with what you're suggesting though. At best you get a armistice for a couple of years which Russia will use to strengthen its military and then they'll attack Ukraine again in force. And even that is foolish to assume they'll stop attacking for that long.
 

Polk

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
4,261
You won't see an end to the war with what you're suggesting though. At best you get a armistice for a couple of years which Russia will use to strengthen its military and then they'll attack Ukraine again in force. And even that is foolish to assume they'll stop attacking for that long.
Considering how much success they have with drones attacking civilian infrastructure, they'll stockpile them and start everything all over again. Because they are terrorist state.
 

Yahsper

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,557
I agree and Ukraine has every right to resist an invasion. My concern is in two years time nothing has changed other than more dead bodies as no side will "win". I really didnt mean to trigger anyone, I just want to see this war and others end.
You see this line of thinking a lot and it makes complete sense besides how, you know, that line of thinking completely overlooks that EVERYONE EXCEPT RUSSIA wants this war to end.

It's the equivalent of me going to someone's house, tying up and threatening their family and when one of the people living in that house starts fighting me, the police comes in and starts giving a lecture about how violence is bad and we both need to stop it and have a conversation about how we can split these goods amicably.

There is a point where this well-intended pacifism turns into victim blaming Ukraine for keeping this war going.
 

Oghuz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,935
I agree and Ukraine has every right to resist an invasion. My concern is in two years time nothing has changed other than more dead bodies as no side will "win". I really didnt mean to trigger anyone, I just want to see this war and others end.

If Russia wins (even a little) then this won't end. They will keep coming for more.

Russia must give up. There is no other option (or Putin dies, but who knows if his successor will be the same).
 

ErichWK

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,557
Sandy Eggo
Remember, Russia will not stop at Ukraine. Putin still hates that the Soviet Union collapsed and will continue to try to regain all the lost satellite states. Ukraine cannot fail. If they do, the smaller less powerful and populated countries will slowly be consumed and all of them will be conscripted to Russia's military. So yea, Drafting them sucks. But if everything collapses, they will still be drafted anyways.
 

Akai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,053
Am I missing something? How is that allowed under EU refugee laws?

I thought you can't sent people back to a non safe country.
 
Jan 1, 2024
1,132
Midgar
I was born and raised in Seoul, South Korea.

While I feel less smug about my previous comment, I still feel it's difficult to put this pressure on people.

I'm from the UK, but I'm ethnically Turkish. We have a militaristic culture. We have mandatory conscription, even for me as a diaspora Turk. Our national founding mythos is based upon glorfying the men and boys who died defending the country from British and Greek invasions, if we hadn't won Turks might be in a landlocked Palestinian like struggle right now.

Despite that emotional baggage, I don't think I would be happy to be force conscripted to fight for Turkey in a total war scenario, to just waste my life like that.

There are Turks that criticise Syrian migrants about this. "Why are they coming over here, why don't they save their country like our ancestors did ours".
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,421
America
I agree and Ukraine has every right to resist an invasion. My concern is in two years time nothing has changed other than more dead bodies as no side will "win". I really didnt mean to trigger anyone, I just want to see this war and others end.

You're being really naive. You can't wish and hope for evil to go away. You have to kill it with bullets and artillery before it kills your family, kidnaps your children, indoctrinates them and sends them back to fight you.

Because that is exactly what Ukraine is facing now.

You can't "want" a war into ending. You have to end it by killing and beating back the invader before it kills your family, kidnaps your children, indoctrinates them and sends them back to fight you.

You can't wish and hope for evil to go away.

The world is not as nice as you want it to be. The world is a horrifying place sometimes and you need to deal with it because denial makes it 10x more horrifying as it lets the war spread.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble. I wish the world was the way you want it to be. Where there is no war, and monsters don't exist. But we have a word for "monster" for a reason, and there is a reason it is so often applied to dictators...like Putin.
 

Forerunner

Resetufologist
The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
14,758
www.theguardian.com

Poland and Lithuania pledge to help Kyiv repatriate Ukrainians subject to military draft

Strong rhetoric is boost for Ukraine reinforcement drive but it is not clear by which mechanism émigrés could be sent back

Poland and Lithuania have said they are prepared to help Ukrainian authorities return men subject to military conscription to the country, after Kyiv announced this week that it was suspending consular services for such men who were now abroad.

"We have suggested for a long time that we can help the Ukrainian side ensure that people subject to [compulsory] military service go to Ukraine," Władysław Kosiniak-Kamysz, Poland's defence minister, told the television channel Polsat, though he did not elaborate on what mechanisms could be used.

His Lithuanian counterpart, Laurynas Kasčiūnas, said his country may make similar efforts. "Ukraine is very short of mobilisation reserve … This is not fair to those citizens who are fighting for their country," he said on Thursday.