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chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain


From someone working in VR haptic use for reduce motion sickness

If it's purely a software solution that reduces resolutions on the side, can't any VR headset do it? Seems disingenuous to market a software feature that any headset can do when revealing your hardware. Would be VERY weird if the advertised foveated rendeing is not tied to eye tracking hardware/software stack.

They have foveated rendering but Sony did not advertise eye tracking foveated rendering which would be better it means use foveated rendering but using eye camera tracking for change the focus.
 
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gothi

Prophet of Truth
Member
Jun 23, 2020
4,433
If it's purely a software solution that reduces resolutions on the side, can't any VR headset do it? Seems disingenuous to market a software feature that any headset can do when revealing your hardware. Would be VERY weird if the advertised foveated rendeing is not tied to eye tracking hardware/software stack.
TBH it'd be more weird to have actual eye tracked foviated rendering and not specifically call that out. Right now they've effectively said they're on par with the current market leader in rendering techniques to allow devs to get better performance.
 

DarrenM

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,712
when the PSVR2 is out; Project Cambria (the new Meta headset, aka the Quest 3) will probably be out as well, so comparing it to the Quest 2 is a bit of a moot point.

Isn't the Quest 3 a separate thing from Cambria? I read Quest 3 is possibly expected next year and will implement some of the tech from Cambria.

It will be interesting to see how PSVR2 stacks up against Quest 3. I'll be there for both anyway.
 
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OP
Primal Sage

Primal Sage

Virtually Real
Member
Nov 27, 2017
9,829
You cut that screen res in half, so it's 1280x1440 per eye. If it was 1280x720 you'd only be using a quarter of the screen per eye.

Whoops! Corrected.

I follow your logic on the debateable wins on everything but the controllers. Dualsense features do not top off individual finger tracking, c'mon now.

Look at it this way: Dual sense features can be put to use in every single game for the headset. Fingertracking can't.

Do people consider the Quest 2 built-in audio to be low-quality? I think it sounds quite good, though to be fair I never tried playing with better headphones.

They are ok. Definetely good enough for me not to bother with headphones when I use my Quest 2. They are severely lacking in bass though and the fact that they are away from your ear and "shoot" the sound forward at your eyes hamper both the quality as well as what you can do with directionality. if you have some proper over ear headphones, try connecting them to your headset and see how you get on.

when the PSVR2 is out; Project Cambria (the new Meta headset, aka the Quest 3) will probably be out as well, so comparing it to the Quest 2 is a bit of a moot point.

Well, I am comparing it to the most widespread PCVR headset right now. Which will also be the most widespread PCVR headset when PSVR2 launches. Soooo.... moot point how?

(plus, most people won't buy a Cambria. It's not a Quest 3. It will be expensive. And I can't compare to something that has no official specs)

If its anything like PSVR 1, the head phones were included and had a spot made for them in the headset. So all you saw was these lil ear pods dangling out before you put the headset on. May have had a spot to secure them while not in use, cant remember now. But they were locked in place in the head set.

That was only the revision 2. The first PSVR model had a jack on the dongle with the power and volume buttons. Looking forward to the pSVR2 hopefully having the same ease of use as the PSVR rev 2.

I hope they manage to avoid god rays again. PSVR was my first VR headset and all the other ones I tried afterwards were pretty shocking in that regard.

Sadly god rays is an unavoidable side effect of using fresnel lenses. I must admit I am not that bothered by them.
 

gothi

Prophet of Truth
Member
Jun 23, 2020
4,433
Isn't the Quest 3 a separate thing from Cambria? I read Quest 3 is possibly expected next year and will implement some of the tech from Cambria.

It will be interesting to see how PSVR2 stacks up against Quest 3. I'll be there for both anyway.
Yes, Cambria will be high end and high cost where they're going to test out new features like pancake lenses and self-tracking controllers. They expect successful experiments in Cambria to appear in the Quest line at some point, most people expect Quest 3 (and are assuming a 2023 launch).

If Quest 3 got self tracking controllers and pancake lenses that would make it very appealing to me as it means being able to use your arms freely without losing tracking and a smaller headset.
 
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Primal Sage

Primal Sage

Virtually Real
Member
Nov 27, 2017
9,829
Isn't the Quest 3 a separate thing from Cambria? I read Quest 3 is possibly expected next year and will implement some of the tech from Cambria.

It will be interesting to see how PSVR2 stacks up against Quest 3. I'll be there for both anyway.

Correct. Cambria is next year. It's the concept car of standalone VR. It will have lots of fancy EXPENSIVE features. Some of them, but definetely not all, will trickle down to Quest 3 which is assumed to launch a year later.

Basically Cambria is not targeted at mainstream consumers. But producing it in quantity will help drive down the cost of components which means it will be possibly to have some of the new features in Quest 3 at a consumer acceptable pricepoint.
 

Praedyth

Member
Feb 25, 2020
6,541
Brazil
It's eye tracking combined with foveated rendering that will do the heavy work here. With eye tracking, dare I say, for the first developers will really know what players are "thinking" and this will open so many possibilities.
 

Carn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,937
The Netherlands
Correct. Cambria is next year. It's the concept car of standalone VR. It will have lots of fancy EXPENSIVE features. Some of them, but definetely not all, will trickle down to Quest 3 which is assumed to launch a year later.

Basically Cambria is not targeted at mainstream consumers. But producing it in quantity will help drive down the cost of components which means it will be possibly to have some of the new features in Quest 3 at a consumer acceptable pricepoint.

when is Quest 3 due to arrive? late 2023?
 

gothi

Prophet of Truth
Member
Jun 23, 2020
4,433
when is Quest 3 due to arrive? late 2023?
No-one knows but we do know Cambria isn't aimed at us and any elements it introduces that are successful will end up in the Quest line at some point. Doesn't make sense to release Quest 3 in the same year so 2023 makes a lot of sense for a Quest 3 with some of the Cambria features in it
 

calibos

Member
Dec 13, 2017
2,011
For me, having just bought a Quest 2 after only playing on wired sets...the Wireless Quest beats all other features provided. The PSVR2 sounds amazing and has a definite feature and power edge, but dealing with wires is a bummer. Plus, not having a PS5 kind of stops the buck for my house lol.
 

BitterFig

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,102
TBH it'd be more weird to have actual eye tracked foviated rendering and not specifically call that out. Right now they've effectively said they're on par with the current market leader in rendering techniques to allow devs to get better performance.
Fixed point foveated rendering is something you can do and I believe some games already do on PSVR1. I don't know how FB advertises their headset. I doubt they had a bullet point that said foveated rendering when they revealed the Quest. The bottom line is, there is hardware to do eye tracking so devs will have everything to do foveated rendering. Now of course how good it'll be is up in the air, but if it was a bullet point in their hardware reveal it means that it's good enough to have at least some kind of benefits implementing foveated rendering.
 

Mung

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,437
Unlike oculus, it doesn't have Facebook (or Meta or whatever they've tried to rebrand themselves as), which is a clear win for PSVR2 and Valve Index.
 
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Poldino

Member
Oct 27, 2020
3,336
Man, PSVR2 really is looking like a beast, a huge step forward with great tech and mant "firsts" in the VR space
 

chieftain

Alt Account
Banned
Nov 18, 2021
22
This will probably be my first console VR headset. Part of the reason I bought a PS5. Just waiting to see what the games will look like now.
 

DarrenM

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,712
For me, having just bought a Quest 2 after only playing on wired sets...the Wireless Quest beats all other features provided. The PSVR2 sounds amazing and has a definite feature and power edge, but dealing with wires is a bummer. Plus, not having a PS5 kind of stops the buck for my house lol.

I wasn't too bothered about the wire when PSVR2 was announced last year, especially since they got it all down to one cable compared to the nightmare PSVR was. But yeah once you try the Quest on it's own or via airlink, it's pretty hard to imagine going back to wired. Hopefully it's not just a basic cable and it has some engineering to it.
 

gothi

Prophet of Truth
Member
Jun 23, 2020
4,433
it was a bullet point in their hardware reveal it means that it's good enough to have at least some kind of benefits implementing foveated rendering.
I hear your point and I guess we'll see, its just super odd to not explicitly call out eye tracked foviated rendering if that's what it is. The point about foveated rendering in the session was right next to the one about about field of view which according to the list in this thread is the same as the Quest FoV so we know they're making talking points out of features that simply match rival headsets.
 

Wollan

Mostly Positive
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,816
Norway but living in France
This isn't confirmed. People are confusing foveated rendering, which the Quest devices have already, with eye-tracked foveated rendering. Eye tracking has only been confirmed for game interaction not for rendering. It might be there, but until it's confirmed that it is we need to stop acting like it is.
Vive Eye Pro released in 2019, aimed at enterprise w/3-4 times price of PSVR, and it's capable of foveated rendering based on eye-tracking. Seems purposefully obtuse to theorize that it was willful obfuscation on Sony's part and question if the PSVR2 can do it in 2022. Smells like "PS5 only supports 100 games in BC" argument due to presentation wording.

In any case, eye-tracking based foveated rendering is not binary. We will see a crawl towards better precision/stability in the coming years.
 

androvsky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,519
Are fresnel lenses confirmed, or is that based on the same leaks that talked about eye-tracked foveated rendering?
 

BitterFig

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,102
I hear your point and I guess we'll see, its just super odd to not explicitly call out eye tracked foviated rendering if that's what it is. The point about foveated rendering in the session was right next to the one about about field of view which according to the list in this thread is the same as the Quest FoV so we know they're making talking points out of features that simply match rival headsets.
FoV is an improvement over PSVR1. Not so surprising they spent time highlighting FoV improvement, since their early adopters are likely PSVR1 owner in large parts. Fixed point foveated rendering on the other hand is something that exists on PSVR1. If they mention foveated rendering, imo it'll be very disingenuous if it's not tied to their new eye tracking hardware. Bottom line is, devs have access to eye tracking. So e.g. devs can use gaze information for variable rate shading which is not as drastic as changing resolution and might work well enough even if eye tracking is not the best. I really think if they had the bullet point 'foveated rendering' it means they are confident through their own preliminary tests that devs can use eye tracking to adapt rendering accuracy. Anything else would be very bad PR which Sony is generally (since PS4 era) cautious to avoid.
 

gothi

Prophet of Truth
Member
Jun 23, 2020
4,433
Vive Eye Pro released in 2019, aimed at enterprise w/3-4 times price of PSVR, and it's capable of foveated rendering based on eye-tracking. Seems purposefully obtuse to theorize that it was willful obfuscation on Sony's part and question if the PSVR2 can do it in 2022. Smells like "PS5 only supports 100 games in BC" argument due to presentation wording.

In any case, eye-tracking based foveated rendering is not binary. We will see a crawl towards better precision/stability in the coming years.
You know that foveated rendering is a thing in its own right that doesn't require or necessitate eye tracking? If you have an eye tracked version of that why wouldn't you say so?
You'd be shouting about it in your blog to get developers excited not just put it next to a picture that says "enhanced FoV" that in reality simply matches other headsets on the market. As I've said in the past on this subject, I'm not saying it's not there but is bloody weird to not mention it when you're making a big deal about matching other vendors specs.
 

CatAssTrophy

Member
Dec 4, 2017
7,648
Texas
Ehh the bit about controller tracking is a bit misleading. The controllers just need to be positioned in a way that the cameras on the headset can see them. That doesn't mean you have to be LOOKING AT the controllers, as implied in the line about Index.

We don't know where the cameras are on the headset, and they may be positioned in ways that are a lot more flexible than assumed. It's likely true that once completely out of view of the cameras it can't track them, but they may still be useable still, and it may not end up mattering at all how well they're tracked "out of bounds" either.

IE: Reaching over your back to pull an arrow from your quiver- if you can't see your virtual hand going back there to grab an arrow but PSVR2 + the game "know" you're reaching back at an arrow, it doesn't really matter how precisely it tracks your hand once out of bounds, but it can still figure things out based on the controller sensors and gyros anyway. You're not solving a rubick's cube behind your head or anything.
 

CubeApple76

Member
Jan 20, 2021
6,726
Looks great to me on paper, I'll pick one up for sure down the line once the software support is off the ground. Two things though:

1. Needs to be BC with PSVR1 games. I swear Sony if I need my old headset lying around to play Astrobot I'll be pissed.
2. It's all about the price. Again, for me I'll buy it no matter what, but if they want a larger install base than the ~5% the first headset got, they need it to be cheaper, or to expand to PC. Unfortunately I expect about the same market penetration because I expect them to price it at 500$.
 

gothi

Prophet of Truth
Member
Jun 23, 2020
4,433
Fixed point foveated rendering on the other hand is something that exists on PSVR1.
Can you do me a favour and source that for me, I can't find a reliable source as everything's now talking about the PSVR 2 presentation :D

If they mention foveated rendering, imo it'll be very disingenuous if it's not tied to their new eye tracking hardware. Bottom line is, devs have access to eye tracking. So e.g. devs can use gaze information for variable rate shading which is not as drastic as changing resolution and might work well enough even if eye tracking is not the best. I really think if they had the bullet point 'foveated rendering' it means they are confident through their own preliminary tests that devs can use eye tracking to adapt rendering accuracy.
Anything else would be very bad PR which Sony is generally (since PS4 era) cautious to avoid.
It's just bloody weird to throw up 'foveated rendering' multiple times, which we know is a thing in its own right and fairly standard for VR now, and not mention it is eye tracked - which would be the impressive thing. Bad PR is having that capability and not saying you have it IMO especially when they've explicitly said gaze tracking is for gameplay.
Again, not saying it's not there, but they've been super careful to not associate eye tracking and foveated rendering for some reason, you have to ask yourself why that is.
 

calibos

Member
Dec 13, 2017
2,011
I wasn't too bothered about the wire when PSVR2 was announced last year, especially since they got it all down to one cable compared to the nightmare PSVR was. But yeah once you try the Quest on it's own or via airlink, it's pretty hard to imagine going back to wired. Hopefully it's not just a basic cable and it has some engineering to it.

A high quality, ultra flexible and light cable would be great. We'll see. Looking to grab a PS5 by end of year and will remain open minded. The software will be key of course and Sony is great at that so...
 

TitanicFall

Member
Nov 12, 2017
8,303
1. Needs to be BC with PSVR1 games. I swear Sony if I need my old headset lying around to play Astrobot I'll be pissed.

I consider that to be the laziest way of experiencing those games on PSVR2. Much better to do native PS5 ports, and knowing Sony that's exactly what they'll do and charge $10+ to upgrade like they do with their other games.
 

BitterFig

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,102
Can you do me a favour and source that for me, I can't find a reliable source as everything's now talking about the PSVR 2 presentation :D
Many PSVR1 games were more blurry around the edge of the screen. Are you seriously doubting that developers are able to render at non uniform resolutions across the screen on PS4? That's not even PSVR related, that's asking if game developers have the most basic of access when creating their games.

And according to Wikipedia, foveated rendering by default implies eye tracking... Anyway, what's truly important is how well eye tracking can help rendering and how good looking PSVR2 games end up. We got a glimpse today, looks great to me. I don't think anyone is expecting a 10x improvement over high end PCs from the foveated rendering. Something relatively on par with flat PS5 games would already be amazing.
 

Fafalada

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,075
Controllers (win debateable. I factor dual sense features higher since they ought to be utilised more often than the finger tracking of Index has been):
PSVR2: Haptics in the controller - it knows which buttons you are touching and thereby semi finger tracking. Dual sense features, which means improved rumble and resistive triggers. Might be easier to track than the others due to the orb design of the tracking rings.
Valve Index: Haptics in the controller - it knows which buttons you are touching and thereby semi finger tracking. Individual finger tracking.
Quest 2: Haptics in controller - it knows which buttons you are touching and thereby semi finger tracking.
Worth mentioning here that sufficiently precise haptics can literally be used to simulate physical shape/weight of small-objects* in VR.
*Human brain perceive small-forces purely by touch(and amount of resistance against skin). So it's actually possible to convincingly simulate something like 'lifting 10g object' purely by haptic feedback.
I don't know enough about haptics in these controllers to say if any could do so - but descriptions I've read of DualSense suggested that fidelity 'might' work for the purpose.
 

2Blackcats

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,112
Eye tracking is gonna be awesome. Can't wait for my first "excuse me, but my eyes are up here" moment.

So without the breakout box we can just use our regular wireless headphones now, right?
 

Fafalada

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,075
Can you do me a favour and source that for me, I can't find a reliable source as everything's now talking about the PSVR 2 presentation :D
Multiple example of launch-games doing it (and how Pro/base differ) in this video:
youtu.be

PS4 Pro vs PlayStation VR: How Much Better Is It?

Tom's spent most of the week immersed in virtual reality on Sony's new VR platform - so to what extent does PlayStation 4 Pro improve the PSVR experience? Su...

Or if you want a more technical-in-depth explanation, page 45 here: https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1024553/AAA-on-a-VR-Budget
(This is just one approach mind you - there are dozens of different ways PSVR titles do this).
 

Edge

A King's Landing
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,012
Celle, Germany
I consider that to be the laziest way of experiencing those games on PSVR2. Much better to do native PS5 ports, and knowing Sony that's exactly what they'll do and charge $10+ to upgrade like they do with their other games.

If 10 bucks means my favorite VR games not only run as PS5 app, but also work perfectly fine with the new tracking, which means the old (head and hand) tracking problems will be completely gone and that alone let's most of these games shine in a completely new light, plus if they're also allowing higher resolution for these games, then oh boy it's a well deserved 10 bucks for every single one of them and I have no problem in paying that.
 

2Blackcats

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,112
If 10 bucks means my favorite VR games not only run as PS5 app, but also work perfectly fine with the new tracking, which means the old (head and hand) tracking problems will be completely gone and that alone let's most of these games shine in a completely new light, plus if they're also allowing higher resolution for these games, then oh boy it's a well deserved 10 bucks for every single one of them and I have no problem in paying that.

I'd be totally fine with 10 bucks too but I doubt my favourite games will get ported so there better be some kind of basic b\c too
 

Edge

A King's Landing
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,012
Celle, Germany
I'd be totally fine with 10 bucks too but I doubt my favourite games will get ported so there better be some kind of basic b\c too

Oh, yeah totally. I hope so too and till now absolutely expected that.

But then I thought about "wait, how will tracking of head and controller even work without any patch?" So I'm not sure.
 

dsk1210

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,404
Edinburgh UK
Will be interesting to see if this can be molded to work on PC as the specs are really good and I do miss OLED in Elite Dangerous.
 

digitalrelic

Weight Loss Champion 2018: Biggest Change
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,124
Honestly seems like a home run for Playstation, depending on price.

Are the odds good that they can keep this at a $399 price point?
 

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,283
Even low quality built in sound with a headphone jack, to me, is a basic necessity. We're essentially going back to gen one in that department. Getting rid of the headphone issue was a major advance with the gen 2 stuff.

Honestly, I'm baffled why over the ear speakers haven't become standard. They're the superior way to do sound, it's just difficult to mount them on your head. HMD's solve the mounting issue.

I gave Q2 a pass because it was probably already far into development when Index released. But Project Cambria still not having it is disappointing. PSVR2 not having anything is just plain bizarre. I wonder if they at least plan an adapter that will snap onto the headset so you can just put on/off without dealing with more wires.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,878
This isn't confirmed. People are confusing foveated rendering, which the Quest devices have already, with eye-tracked foveated rendering. Eye tracking has only been confirmed for game interaction not for rendering. It might be there, but until it's confirmed that it is we need to stop acting like it is.
UploadVR's report of PSVR2 from back in May which is now proven to be accurate said it was "gaze tracking capable of foveated rendering", so it should be a real foveated rendering solution.
As an aside I am pretty sure a bunch of PSVR1 games used static foveated rendering, I remember a bunch of them running at aggressively lower resolution on the outer edges of the screen.
 

degauss

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,631
Oh wow, eye tracking with foveated rendering is confirmed? Holy shit, I thought that was years off.
 

AImalexia

Prophet of Truth
Member
Aug 31, 2021
2,426
Looks like great hardware, hopefully it has decent catalog, or works on the PC.

Not interested in it if the software follows the pattern of the PSVR1 (random ports of pancake games and low budget experiences)
 

brokenswiftie

Prophet of Truth
Banned
May 30, 2018
2,921
Can you do me a favour and source that for me, I can't find a reliable source as everything's now talking about the PSVR 2 presentation :D


It's just bloody weird to throw up 'foveated rendering' multiple times, which we know is a thing in its own right and fairly standard for VR now, and not mention it is eye tracked - which would be the impressive thing. Bad PR is having that capability and not saying you have it IMO especially when they've explicitly said gaze tracking is for gameplay.
Again, not saying it's not there, but they've been super careful to not associate eye tracking and foveated rendering for some reason, you have to ask yourself why that is.

If the headset had eye tracking what's the barrier then to implement existing foveated rendering technology with eye tracking ?

Devs can just use the eye tracking data and adjust the rendering resolution accordingly

I'm not sure this what's this esoteric hardware or software that's required to connect both

This just sounds like FUD similar to PS5 can only play 100 PS4 games or PS5 is RDNA 1.5 so no HW raytracing etc etc
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,950
Sounds great. I've been holding off on upgrading to a new VR headset, as I wanted to let Sony roll theirs out - and then see what everyone releases next.
 

chrominance

Sky Van Gogh
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,689
I consider that to be the laziest way of experiencing those games on PSVR2. Much better to do native PS5 ports, and knowing Sony that's exactly what they'll do and charge $10+ to upgrade like they do with their other games.

Sure, but I dunno that someone's chomping at the bit to do a PS5 port of, say, Tumble VR. Inevitably something's going to be left behind.