Yeah people like the taste of meat, they also like fruits, vegetables and various grain-based foods to.
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Pure vegan restaurant in Somerset England expands selection into meat dishes; draws minor controversy
- Thread starter mbpm
- Start date
Sidestepping the whole "It's ok for something to suffer as long as I get 10-15 minutes of pleasure" bit - People don't seem to realise that their palettes are malleable.
Who remembers having their first sip of Tea/Coffee/Beer and thinking "Oh damn that's THE BEST THING EVER!"? Hardly anyone. How about smoking? Millions of people do that but I dont think anyone thinks their first one "tasted nice". Your tastes change over time.
Prior to going Vegan, I used to drink a lot of Milk. None of the dairy-free alternatives came even close to the taste. I ended up using what is essentially a vanilla milkshake as a replacement because it was the only thing I could find that tasted nice. After a month or two I started going back to "regular" plant-based milks and the difference wasn't as Jarring. A couple more months and my taste associations with Milk had totally gone. I remember that I liked it, but I don't get the negative reaction when drinking plant-based stuff now.
Same goes for many replacement meat products. I know that they're not "as good" (In some cases, some I think are pretty bang-on), but it doesn't matter any more because my tastes have adapted. I get the same reaction eating a Beyond Burger as I would have done from eating some premium beef burger. I also really like Tofu now. I wouldn't touch it before.
All it takes is a few months, but people don't seem to like that because the gratification isn't instantaneous.
Edit: Apologies, double!
They had a mix IIRC. You could get stuff like Beyond Burgers (though they were still expensive) but also a lot of stuff that wasn't imitation meat. It was a big menu anyway!
Which ones have you tried? (And also which country are you in?) I'm fairly critical when it comes to those products so I can let you know if there's something else you should give a go :)
They had a mix IIRC. You could get stuff like Beyond Burgers (though they were still expensive) but also a lot of stuff that wasn't imitation meat. It was a big menu anyway!
Which ones have you tried? (And also which country are you in?) I'm fairly critical when it comes to those products so I can let you know if there's something else you should give a go :)
Sausage seems like it should be such a easy win, given how much of it comes down to the seasoning in the ground beef/pork/chicken rather than the meat itself, and I couldn't tell you the last time I ever had sausage with natural casing.
As someone who eats meatless 5-6 days a week I kinda get it. Even small amounts of meat seem transformative to the dish to me. For example just a few % of bacon in a roast potatoes with scrambled eggs dish makes it feel distinctively different even in texture.
Am I understanding this correctly, that not just the item served/produced needs to be vegan, but also the owners need to eat/consume vegan in order for it to be truly vegan?
I think it builds more trust in the product, my sisters a vegan and those kind of things matter, she's constantly investigating her food and it's sources etc. Like if you eat meat then she suddenly gets paranoid about the pans etc being used for her food.
Hum, i wasn't making that judgment at all. It just seemed to me that if the owners were vegan, they would not have moved to non vegan options regardless of the risk to the business. I've known some vegan restaurants which closed because of that.
No. It's a bonus of course but no. The owners aren't Vegan though and thus this change isn't shocking.
I run a local Vegan group; we had a place with a Vegan owner but had investments from non Vegan investors and it caused issues but the people causing issues had friends with local 100% owned places (With quite frankly not as good food or closed at 3PM and yeah the place staying open till 10PM and doing delivery does well with junk food, no shit).
And how are you going to get people to change?
Obviously, but if one's business is failing they need to look to expand what their business offers.
Well, sure, but that doesn't make that kind of behavier any less obnoxiously dumb to me.
I'm in Finland and I'm assuming you're American, so I doubt we'll have many similar products, unfortunately! A lof the meat alternatives I see in the stores are from Finnish manufacturers. Appreciate it though.
yeah, in my experience plant-based breakfast sausage in particular tastes darn near identical to the real thing
soyrizo has a little bit more of a texture issue, but it's still pretty good
"Veganism" is essentially the exclusion of use animal products (In order to end animal exploitation and suffering) as much as possible. The end bit is added because there are some situations where alternatives are not possible. For example in Medication - either as an ingredient or via a requirement for animal testing.
There isn't really a "legal" definition of it, so it just depends where someone's preferences lie. Everyone I know considers "Vegan Food" to be food that is entirely derived from Plants/Fungi, and does not contain any animal products. Nothing to do with where/who made it.
That said, a Vegan business would be one where the owners and practices within the business also subscribe to the Vegan ethos.
I can't say I've ever heard people throwing around terms like "Truly Vegan", but there is a general line of thinking that we should support Vegan Businesses before others.
That's just an assumption though, and I'd say that without proof then it's not right for people to state it should be closed down. Hell it's not right to state it should shut down regardless.
On top of that there's different levels of veganism from those who won't touch or have anything to do with animal products being used for any purpose to those where it's literally just a case of they won't eat or wear any animal products. Personally I don't believe it's for one group to set the definition for everyone else.
There's no reason you can't be a vegan and still cook meat for others just as there's no reason you can't be an omnivore and run a vegan restaurant. There's a famous British chef who's not a vegetarian and yet owns two vegetarian restaurants. You can still want to provide the vegan community with somewhere to eat without being a vegan.
Alternatively it may just be the owner who's vegan, the kitchen team may not be and are happy enough to cook with animal products.
No, you can't cook meat as a Vegan. You can be plant based maybe. It's clearly defined:
It's not really up for debate; it was defined clearly (https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism), it's a movement against animal abuse. Now plant based diets and that are different though.
It's not really up for debate; it was defined clearly (https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism), it's a movement against animal abuse. Now plant based diets and that are different though.
My wife barely any meat just because these reasons.
But according to my wife I can cook atleast vegetarian meals very well.
Despite me being a big meat eater. But I don't need to have meat in every thing I eat. But most fake meats are, just not there jet. usally if the taste is right the texture is wrong, and when the texture is right the taste is wrong. But if it is put in some thing like soup(like vegan Rookworst in Erwtensoep), or in a sausage roll (saucijzenbroodje) It gets very close the real deal.
I don't think pivoting will work without extensive marketing. Probably originally they promoted themselves as a vegan restaurant to attract vegans, but it also alienated other people. If they pivot, it won't change much because the people who could come to the restaurant probably have found an alternative + some of previous customers will throw a fit (as we have seen in the article).
Yeah. I ate some vegan meatballs and it felt like the balls made from bread and heavy spices to get a taste. I think it was not juicy enough (something that the real meat provides), thus it worked with a soup.
You should look at the rest of my posts in this thread pal.
My point is that responding to someone frustrated at how the government makes meat the only real solution for lower-income families and how social norms push meat through stuff like toxic masculinity with "people like meat" is completely worthless.
I'm just saying I think the main reason is simply people like the taste, and the rest of the other stuff is a factor but not nearly as much. But options for lower income families being so minimal is a genuine issue, yes.
I don't think there's a single solution that would fit every individual.
I changed because I was (politely) confronted with questions I could not give answers to. Essentially what I said before: "Why is it ok for all these sentient creatures to suffer (Many for their entire lives) so that you can have 10-15 minutes of mild pleasure that you probably wont even remember a few days from now". Every way I tried to reason with it, spin it in my head etc. I could not get around the fact that it is cruel, exploitative and that I was directly contributing to it. Morally I could not continue living that way knowing that I was inflicting so much suffering on other creatures.
Many people, however, will not be willing to engage in those kinds of discussions at first. They are not willing to consider that the way they are living their lives might be "bad". People that lack the ability to reflect upon themselves need to be approached in a different way, and I feel that way is via a "commercial" route. This means increasing the quality of the products, making them significantly more affordable (That's a big one), and pushing the "extra" benefits - Health, environment etc.
Additionally, getting the cost down also helps in the "Means to an end" approach. That is to say if you get the costs of the ingredients low enough, big businesses will flow there naturally. Look at the big shitty companies like Kraft or whatever that are always trying to find a way to cut a cost. If they could replace Milk with something cheaper, you know they would. Morally, they don't give a fuck, but (Again, IMO - others don't share this) if they can be convinced to get rid of the animal products then its still a victory overall.
I'm in the Uk unfortunately so I'm afriad there probably won't be much crossover. We have a lot of meat-alternative stuff here and some of it is very good, but to my knowledge, it isn't exported. If, however, you end up in the UK or come across these brands somewhere I would definitely recommend them:
* Richmond Meat-Free sausages. Richmond is a (pork sausage) brand in the UK that has a bit of a reputation for not using very much pork in their sausages, whilst still being pretty tasty. Surprise-surprise, when they made a version without pork the taste and texture was almost identical 😂
* "THIS" Brand. Always named "THIS isn't.... Chicken, Pork etc." In my opinion, this is the S-Tier of immitation meats that are availible in supermarkets. Their chicken comes in small chunks and has the most similar taste to real chicken that I have come across. Their "pork" sausages are also what I consider to be the best on the market. Their Bacon has the best texture of all vegan bacons that I have tried too.
People really like soda with cane sugar, but everyone just accepted high fructose corn syrup because of government subsidies.
Lmao, that's great. But gotcha, I'll keep those in mind! Who knows, might run into them somewhere.
I see, from what PinkSpider posted it seems they cease to be vegans when they prepare meat dishes for any reason, so I guess from that point of view to a vegan the only option would be to accept that they are not able to make it work with their approach and close down, making the owners not vegan even if they happen to not consume any animal products.
Oh one other brand I forgot about - "Moving Mountains". They do lots of different things - Burgers, Hot-dogs, Fish (battered). Another "premium" brand but also worth a try :)
Well yeah exploiting animals is not Vegan but from what I've seen they weren't Vegan originally as a business, just doing Vegan products. Which is fine but the business owners were not Vegan.
On the opposite side of this story (kind of), a Sausage restaurant in Durham which had only one vegan option - which wasnt even a sausage, but a veggie burger - lasted about half a year before closing.
Probably lots of reasons why it closed, but lack of vegetarian/vegan options will have been one of them. Durham is a student town, so you'd expect a fair number of vegans among your possible customers. Thing is, even if only one person in 10 is vegan, that still means 100% of a decent-sized party of people are going to go elsewhere.
I'm one of those '1 or 2 meat days a week' types of people, so I can be flexible where I eat, but restaurants with crap/no vegetarian or vegan options are a tough sell, and right now its a tough environment to be doing business in.
There is also a vegan coffee shop up the road which had to turn to crowdfunding to afford a year's rent. Bit more of a success than the Sausage place (they made their funding goal) but only barely.
Probably lots of reasons why it closed, but lack of vegetarian/vegan options will have been one of them. Durham is a student town, so you'd expect a fair number of vegans among your possible customers. Thing is, even if only one person in 10 is vegan, that still means 100% of a decent-sized party of people are going to go elsewhere.
I'm one of those '1 or 2 meat days a week' types of people, so I can be flexible where I eat, but restaurants with crap/no vegetarian or vegan options are a tough sell, and right now its a tough environment to be doing business in.
There is also a vegan coffee shop up the road which had to turn to crowdfunding to afford a year's rent. Bit more of a success than the Sausage place (they made their funding goal) but only barely.
This stuff triggers me. It just makes me upset that people who can afford to go vegan, choose not to go vegan, basically because they are either ignorant or just selfish.
Most people are aware of the mass slaughter and severe miss treatment of animals…and people just shrug. Oh well I don't care I need meat 🥴
It's shameful and people should feel ashamed. Absolutely.
There is no way around the very fact it's immoral to eat meat.
It feels so pointless even writing this. It just goes through one ear out the other. And the arguments people use to defend their meat eating is the same regurgitated shit I've heard a million times because people are too lazy to educate themselves. That or they get swallowed by confirmation bias because that's what they want to believe because they are selfish and don't want to change.
Most people are aware of the mass slaughter and severe miss treatment of animals…and people just shrug. Oh well I don't care I need meat 🥴
It's shameful and people should feel ashamed. Absolutely.
There is no way around the very fact it's immoral to eat meat.
It feels so pointless even writing this. It just goes through one ear out the other. And the arguments people use to defend their meat eating is the same regurgitated shit I've heard a million times because people are too lazy to educate themselves. That or they get swallowed by confirmation bias because that's what they want to believe because they are selfish and don't want to change.
Yes, you can.
Of course it's up for debate, the vegan society doesn't speak for all vegans and their definitions are not the be all and end all of veganism. I have a friend who's vegan, she works in a nursing home and helps the people there preparing their meals and she does cook meat because obviously she's not going to force her diet on others. Is she not vegan because she's doing her job?
Depends on the area. The problem is the current climate makes it especially hard to run a vegan business because prices have shot up and people are eating out less.
I wouldn't personally as someone who's been Vegan 17 years and meat free for 31 (Edit for a third time as I forget how old I am). (It's exploiting a being which didn't want to die or suffer; it's against everything I believe). I know some I would (A handful out of many) but hospitality wise I wouldn't think it was to do both and their would be issues within the community (I manage one of the big UK Facebook groups and the big Hull one) for those that did.
Your objection, and those of others, only focus on the practical reaction, which is valid but does not recognise the equally valid ethical reaction. Veganism is an ethical position, not a diet, and as such the comparison is completely reasonable. The idea expressed by some of the vegan clientele of that restaurant is consistent with their morality, the practical concerns are separate.
I applaud them to be honest. This is their livelihood, not some fun pass time hobby. Do what they need to do to keep bread on their table
Wicked Kitchen are reasonable as well.
TBH it's remarkable how vegan food has really taken off over the last 10 years of so in the UK. It's becoming far more "normal", which is very encouraging.
(to note, I'm not vegan but we have enormously cut down the amount of animal products we consume for environmental reasons, which seems to be more common in my circle at least - red meat for example is an incredible rarity these days it seems).
This stuff triggers me. It just makes me upset that people who can afford to go vegan, choose not to go vegan, basically because they are either ignorant or just selfish.
Most people are aware of the mass slaughter and severe miss treatment of animals…and people just shrug. Oh well I don't care I need meat
It's shameful and people should feel ashamed. Absolutely.
There is no way around the very fact it's immoral to eat meat.
It feels so pointless even writing this. It just goes through one ear out the other. And the arguments people use to defend their meat eating is the same regurgitated shit I've heard a million times because people are too lazy to educate themselves. That or they get swallowed by confirmation bias because that's what they want to believe because they are selfish and don't want to change.
Or you know, they might have a different opinion to you and like the taste/texture and are ok with the morality of it?
See, this kind of dismissive attitude is what turns an enormous amount of people away. The "I'm better than you because I care and you're just ignorant" is just boneheaded.
They are not fucking idiots just because they care strongly about the exploitation of animals.
Being from the UK, I did try the vegan sausage roll at Greggs and that was surprisingly good. So there's that. But yeah, usually to have one part, they sacrifice the other. So, I doubt I'll see meat alternatives in my life time, but one can hope I guess. Lol
Plant Kitchen from them is cheaper and better; their lasagna with the 32p garlic bread is my hangover cure of choice. I find their more basic ranges are better than Wicked (Outside of the pizza; both are good but Wicked do a good bread).
Haha yeah I think I'm just a sucker for their pizza/bread and the ice cream stuff they've started to do!
Lol this changes it. I mean yeah I think they should protect their workers but this indicates to their former clientele that it was ALWAYS about potential profit and zero ethical concern
My only grievance on the mint choc chip is it isn't green, it feels wrong (Tasted amazing mind).
Man some people in this thread wow. People can be all high and mighty not caring about a person's livelihood. Their business model wasn't working with a strict vegan menu. They either have to adapt or be forced to close down. At least be happy they still have a vegan option.
It's always going to be heated when Veganism is a moral objection about mass animal abuse and suffering. Most of us do actually shop at non Vegan businesses but pushing back to animal abuse from a moral standpoint will not go down well. (It can't be that hard to understand?)
They seemed to have entered with the intent to cash in on the recent increase in popularity of meat alternative foods (owners weren't vegan). It bit them in the ass so they're pivoting. I agree that it's the correct decision to keep providing their employees jobs but vegans are very passionate and it is a genuinely important issue. To see that it was ALWAYS to try and get rich rather than for initial morality concerns would likely piss off a good number. I'm not vegan btw just saying haha but I probably should be
It depends really. Morality is a difficult thing to bend especially if you've made a hard conscious choice and go through the inconveniences that involves because you feel you must. Seeing others apparently jump the bandwagon then retreat when it becomes a bit hard can therefore be quite galling.
However, I've also found that often having a mixed menu is better, because people who would never go "full vegan" to a restaurant that only does veggie/vegan are more likely to be exposed to vegan food if they actually go somewhere that sells it! The issue most people have is just a complete psychlogical block on it from years of "nut roast" bullshit, and so won't even be exposed to how good vegan food can be.
I dunno, I've been meat free since 5 and Vegan 17 years (Ish, I was around 19). Best friend (pre him becoming Vegan), dates, work meals have generally been heavily Vegan or Veggie places and generally 100% Vegan and I kinda think it's weird if you can't eat plants for an evening (The all you can eat Veggie place, 95+% Vegan is probably one of the more well known and loved places in this city).
ultimately a capitalism problem. morality rarely has a place because the drive for profit is required to pay people who themselves need to live and support themselves.
That's the main issue.
They never said they would do Meat, just:
Nowhere do they say "We now doing Meat".
Might aswell have just did this as it'd give more away:
You know, before taking it and running with it you could ask PinkSpider to provide a source on that. Not that I doubt this information, but it does feel weird to me to go from "from what I've seen" and "apparently" to a definite "weren't Vegans". With the definition they provided in mind the owners ofcourse aren't Vegans _now_ that they decided to offer animal based dishes (again?).
Not too surprised to hear this, they hopped on the bandwagon to make some cash. Plenty of people are all too willing to throw morals out the window to make some money.
Err Facebook. It's been posted and discussed in multiple groups a lot more than here. I don't generally care as I do more promoting places that I think deserve it (Vegan Food UK, I see most the posts and comments). See if can find the posts as it quickly died as most are the same in Vegan groups and rather promote stuff. I saw the post yesterday in several groups but it's died heavily.