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ishan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,192
"She's not wrong, but she didn't say it how I wanted her to"

- every other person in this thread. Bunch of gutless cowards
How you say shit matters a lot.
(And it doesnt make you a gutless coward. Not knowing what when and how to say it can make ppl label ppl as clueless idiots also. So yes name calling is easy. You know maybe people realize complex issues have complex responses and solutions.)
 

Powdered Egg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,070
She's right about Obama but I think hindsight is 20/20. On one potential timeline he could've been a stepping stone towards even more progressive growth, but in retrospect he should've played much harder. He was politicking like most Democrats still are today, so they're the ones that truly deserve to be called out. The gloves are fucking off.
It's not even hindsight, Obama was fucking around at some points in his first term. I didn't vote for him in 2012 due to disappointment and his regressive civil liberties policy.
 

Lo-Volt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,435
New Yawk City!
To think that Ilhan Omar is going to modulate her language now, after the party basically screwed her? Uh-huh. Rep. Omar is a dark-skinned refugee: her experience and the experience of scores of others around the world is an indictment of the American mainstream, and she gets battered for saying so.

The impulses that govern the Trump administration do precede him - that IS fair for her to point out. American policy on refugees and regime change sucks no matter who is in power. We can admit that Barack Obama was a better and more thoughtful president and still admit it didn't work out so well in the end.

And as for the rest of Team Blue talking about how Ilhan is fucking it up for them, too bad. Omar and Rashida Tlaib get harassed and threatened for fucking breathing, and they're getting either abandoned or punished out of proportion. It's a horror show in progress and I didn't buy tickets for this. If the Democrats expect loyalty from them, they need to show some too.
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
Totally agree. I don't know what is Illhan's game here. She needs to learn how to focus on important matters and attacking a previous Democratic president who is loved by a lot isn't it. Whether you believed in him or not, liked him or not, there are better targets to go after. Jesus
But it is a pressing problem. Obama's foreign policy was not okay. His expansion of drone warfare was not okay. His normalizing of torturers from the Bush administration was not okay. The reason why we have Iraq War cheerleaders back in the public eye as respectable commentators in 2019 is because people are too focused on being anti-Trump and not realizing the bigger issues that plague all administrations. It is important that we criticize Obama, because people really want to normalize very awful things he was responsible for just like they want to normalize (and have largely succeeded btw) the Bush administration.
 

Deepwater

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,349
How you say shit matters a lot.
(And it doesnt make you a gutless coward. Not knowing what when and how to say it can make ppl label a clueless idiot also. So yes name calling is easy. You know maybe people realize complex issues have complex responses and solutions.)

Sorry, this is just flat out tone policing to protect a sacred cow. If you can't walk and chew bubblegum and take the failings of a centrist presidency like Obama and balance it with the uber failings of a Trump presidency and keep both in mind as a framework to move forward, you are lost.
 

Slime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,971
I wish progressives could be allowed to have nuanced opinion about things without being labeled either a neoliberal shill or a Bernie stan.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
[/QUOTE]
I don't know what your goal is by using a definition of war criminal that every leader of every country would fit into.

Not even close to true but keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep.

Liberals "if you're nice to people there's really no difference between complicity in the face of terror and perpetuating terror"

Also liberals "how dare you criticize us, do you want trump to rule forever. You should support us, the people who lost to him"
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
What's the point? Innocent people die in conflicts. What your saying equates to "war is bad!"
This is fucking pathetic. The total lack of concern over human fucking life on display, innocent civilian life that has nothing to do with conflict, because "well other countries do it, everyone dies in conflict" is seriously astounding, and you should seriously reconsider your moral outlook.
 

ishan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,192
Sorry, this is just flat out tone policing to protect a sacred cow. If you can't walk and chew bubblegum and take the failings of a centrist presidency like Obama and balance it with the uber failings of a Trump presidency and keep both in mind as a framework to move forward, you are lost.
Or you know ppl can walk chew gum and avoid a pot hole at the same time. She worded this wrong IMO. And in my first post I did say Obama had his flaws. I also say these are complex issues and reducing it to "gutless cowards" is silly and reductionist imo.
 

Deleted member 283

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,288
Remember how so many democrats, journalists and ERA posters were big on "holding members of your own party accountable" and "having higher standards" when Omar was criticizing AIPAC a few weeks ago?

Where y'all at??
Indeed. Apparently those "higher standards" stop at the big man. Fine to have bigger standards of some representative of Congress, but when it comes to the most recent Democratic President, apparently that's too much.
She's not wrong, but this is not helpful either? What was the context of saying this?

How well did having a bunch of young ideologue Representatives in the caucus work out for Boehner and Ryan? Again, even though she's correct, this is the sort of off-message unforced error that Trump makes all the time. When the party finally gets to stop talking about Omar and talk about the bills they want (lots of Dems came out and complained the the Omar thing this week took all the air out of their voting reform bill etc), now she says this? And turns the narrative for the rest of the week/weekend into "Dems turning on Obama, Trump was right!"

For what purpose?
I dunno. How helpful was it to force a resolution passed the House that was a not-so-subtle jab at one of your party's own members at Congress? Yet Pelosi forced that through, for all the good it did of shifting the narrative (not much, based on threads like this and people moving on from Republican hypocrisy at being the only ones to actually vote against the resolution or whatever, because surprise, nobody cares and we just shift to the next thing she says). The only thing actually accomplished by that was completely embarrassing Omar in front of the entire Congress, and giving more weight to Republican attacks against her since they apparently necessitated such a measure, and who, despite the measure passing, Trump and Republicans are continuing to attack her and things have moved on from any discussion of Republican hypocrisy or whatever seemingly immediately.

So yeah, not exactly in a mood to talk about things that "aren't helpful" to be quite frank, considering most Democrats aren't interested in being very helpful toward Representative Omar and speaking up for her, so what's even the point of her being quote unquote "helpful" to other Democrats anyway instead of just speaking truth-to-power if that's how she's going to get treated regardless? She's getting thrown to the wolves regardless, so might as well be true to herself and not hold anything back and tell it like it is if that's how it's going to be. Point being, definitely don't want to hear ANYTHING about things that "aren't helpful" though, considering how she herself is being treated even by her colleagues in the House.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
This is so pathetic. By everyone posting this. But I'm sure you were saying this when Dems threw Omar under the bus earlier this week right?


And?
I was with her side with the whole Israel thing. I even called Schiff, my representative to express my displeasure. My reason? You don't attack a fellow Democrat. Which is exactly what she is doing here.
 

Nashira

Alt Account
Banned
Feb 21, 2019
207
Great to see so many men on International Women's Day tone-policing and infantilizing a black Muslim woman for speaking truth to power
 

Zornack

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,134
So youre only good to us if you get us something rather than bringing up legitimate issues that need rectifying.

"Obama used drones and detained children" are not issues that need to be brought up in 2019.

This fucking shit is why the Supreme Court is going to be stacked republican for the majority of the rest of my life. The right makes excuses to support their candidate while the left makes excuses to not support theirs.
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
I don't know what your goal is by using a definition of war criminal that every leader of every country would fit into.

You're almost there

What's the point? Innocent people die in conflicts. What your saying equates to "war is bad!"

It's more like "war is bad let's do something about it". Yours and others is like "war is bad so let's not single out this person for doing it"
So youre only good to us if you get us something rather than bringing up legitimate issues that need rectifying.
Like I said in the other thread, chess pieces.
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
Likewise. I didn't like how he handled Wall Street and his use of drones back then and didn't vote for him in 2012.
I always defer to Chomsky on this one. If you live in a swing seat, you should vote. Because the alternative was Mitt Romney... and it's not like I expect him to be better.
 

Deepwater

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,349
Or you know ppl can walk chew gum and avoid a pot hole at the same time. She worded this wrong IMO. And in my first post I did say Obama had his flaws. I also say these are complex issues and reducing it to "gutless cowards" and statements such as she is making is silly and reductionist imo.

Tone policing does makes you a gutless coward, ESPECIALLY if you lead with "she's not exactly wrong"

This is actual, literal political correctness because the thought of her saying it publicly makes you uncomfortable but you can't even demonstrably identify negative, material consequences.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,688
Great to see so many men on International Women's Day tone-policing and infantilizing a black Muslim woman who fled from war and now speaks truth to power.
But I bought all the products corporations put out profiting off celebrating International Women's Day!!! That means I couldnt possibly be on the wrong right?
 

SaintBowWow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,085
So Obama did cage kids at the border now? That was the Trump admin's main defense when they were in hot water over family separation and everyone here called bullshit, but now that Omar is repeating it it totally happened?
 

ISOM

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
2,684
But it is a pressing problem. Obama's foreign policy was not okay. His expansion of drone warfare was not okay. His normalizing of torturers from the Bush administration was not okay. The reason why we have Iraq War cheerleaders back in the public eye as respectable commentators in 2019 is because people are too focused on being anti-Trump and not realizing the bigger issues that plague all administrations. It is important that we criticize Obama, because people really want to normalize very awful things he was responsible for just like they want to normalize (and have largely succeeded btw) the Bush administration.

Honestly there is no reason to bring up Obama to make her point. She can argue what future Democratic candidates need to do to better their drone policy, border policy or whatever. Bringing up Obama just creates unnecessary division when what we need is unity as a party.
 

Sidebuster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,408
California
I think Obama had everything and everyone (that didn't vote for him) going against him. I mean, the GOP was ready to impeach him if he sneezed too hard. But he still didn't make the moves he could have in service of the people he made promises too that voted him in. So in essence I agree with her completely.
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
Omar doesn't represent a path to an electoral college win.
"The system is broken" is actually a much more popular message to actual people than "status quo that sucks is good enough because TRUMP"
"Obama used drones and detained children" are not issues that need to be brought up in 2019.

This fucking shit is why the Supreme Court is going to be stacked republican for the majority of the rest of my life. The right makes excuses to support their candidate while the left makes excuses to not support theirs.
It's an issue that should be brought up when your point is that the system functions in a very similarly flawed way no matter who is in power, and therefore should be changed.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,206
To think that Ilhan Omar is going to modulate her language now, after the party basically screwed her? Uh-huh. Rep. Omar is a dark-skinned refugee: her experience and the experience of scores of others around the world is an indictment of the American mainstream, and she gets battered for saying so.

The impulses that govern the Trump administration do precede him - that IS fair for her to point out. American policy on refugees and regime change sucks no matter who is in power. We can admit that Barack Obama was a better and more thoughtful president and still admit it didn't work out so well in the end.

And as for the rest of Team Blue talking about how Ilhan is fucking it up for them, too bad. Omar and Rashida Tlaib get harassed and threatened for fucking breathing, and they're getting either abandoned or punished out of proportion. It's a horror show in progress and I didn't buy tickets for this. If the Democrats expect loyalty from them, they need to show some too.
They better get used to it. She has no reason or intent to back down:
"As much as other people are uncomfortable, I'm excited about the change in tone that has taken place that is extremely positive. The insightful conversations that we're having about money and its influence in Washington. And my ability, I think, to agitate our foreign policy discussions in a way that many of my colleagues who have been anti-intervention, anti-war have been unable to do in the past," she says. "So, I'm OK with taking the blows if it means it will ignite conversations that no one was willing to have before."
I do wish people would stop reducing her statements in to something they're not. She's not attacking Obama. She's criticizing the system he was part of.
 

Deleted member 6949

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,786
"Obama used drones and detained children" are not issues that need to be brought up in 2019.

This fucking shit is why the Supreme Court is going to be stacked republican for the majority of the rest of my life. The right makes excuses to support their candidate while the left makes excuses to not support theirs.

The right will literally support a white supremacist criminal with dementia who is working for a foreign power as long as they have an R next to their name. I don't know why you would want us to be more like them.
 

base_two

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,814
She's right. But she seems ill suited for her current elected position in Congress with these kind of...hot takes? She would be better off running as an independent if she's going to buck the party so much.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,460
The only people that'll lead to Omar bring a one term congresswoman are the dumbasses "lol"-ing at her "lack of strategy" or talking about her "enforced errors". She's a black muslim woman, neither republican nor the mainstream media was ever going to be fair to her. If progressives actually support her that doesn't have to matter and she can actually succeed at what she's trying to do: dragging the overton window to the left. Cause this is how you do that. Look at how she has done that with this AIPACgate. Together with her fellow progressive politicians and progressive voices in the media she succeeded at chipping away at Israel's power over US politics. That's incredible and she can do more incredible things if you moderates either shut up or support her.
 

ishan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,192
Tone policing does makes you a gutless coward, ESPECIALLY if you lead with "she's not exactly wrong"

This is actual, literal political correctness because the thought of her saying it publicly makes you uncomfortable but you can't even demonstrably identify negative, material consequences.
and your words in that case make you a clueless idiot who doesnt get why words matter imo. And I lead with Obama had flaws not with shes right. A person can be half right or make wrong equivalences or right idea but wrong conclusions etc and using words appropriately as a result matter.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
"Obama used drones and detained children" are not issues that need to be brought up in 2019.

This fucking shit is why the Supreme Court is going to be stacked republican for the majority of the rest of my life. The right makes excuses to support their candidate while the left makes excuses to not support theirs.
Yes they are. Because if they aren't were going to continue seeing the status quo carry on with it like its just apart of everyday American life, like you keep pointing out. The dems being better than the republicans is NOT the threshold we should hold them to, thats the lowest bar possible. Your total lack of concern over innocent people dying is downright reprehensible.

Not support their candidate? make up your mind. If its not relevant to whats happening now how is it effecting 2020? What candidate that is running in 2020 are excuses being made to not support them?
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
So Obama did cage kids at the border now? That was the Trump admin's main defense when they were in hot water over family separation and everyone here called bullshit, but now that Omar is repeating it it totally happened?
it wasn't exactly the same situation w/ what's happening now. I'm sure someone here can explain the difference.

But what was interesting was that some of the footage that was being used to show how awful Trump's policies were towards migrant kids was actually video footage from 2014 from the Obama administration. kind of ironic really.
 

Zornack

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,134
This is fucking pathetic. The total lack of concern over human fucking life on display, innocent civilian life that has nothing to do with conflict, because "well other countries do it, everyone dies in conflict" is seriously astounding, and you should seriously reconsider your moral outlook.

My moral outlook is that innocent people die in war, regardless of who is in power. If that is so concerning to you that you'll hand over the government to people who are objectively worse for every disenfranchised group of people in the world, that's on you.

"Give me a government that doesn't engage in conflicts" is not an option. It's just not. It'd be nice if it was, but its not, and wringing your hands over that while the other party actively tries to harm every minority group is not morally superior.
 
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