What do you think an internship is?I've volunteered for many advocacy groups and nonprofits, but never a business.
What do you think an internship is?I've volunteered for many advocacy groups and nonprofits, but never a business.
And then when the stranger throws their hands up and says "fine then; you pay me if you feel it's important," the topic dies.I've never seen so many people so mad at a stranger because the stranger didn't get money the stranger isn't asking for.
Everyone knows unpaid internships are exploitation.
I've never seen so many people so mad at a stranger because the stranger didn't get money the stranger isn't asking for.
We truly are Strangers in Paradise.I've never seen so many people so mad at a stranger because the stranger didn't get money the stranger isn't asking for.
You're not supposed to do anything (that's the point of this whole topic; fundamentally nothing has changed for members or staffers). The point was that you all felt it was extremely important that staff get paid for our labor. So I, being an intrepid little bean, set up a way for you all to directly contribute since you all seem to care a lot about our financial well-being. Like, I provided a solution to the problem.Wait, now members are supposed to pay the mods and not the people who actually make money with this site?
What would this mean for international employees? Labor laws are different in various parts of the world, and there are different regulations for employing people outside of the country a company is based in, as well as international employees accepting paid work.
Contract based work is easier to manage, but would result in all the same oversight issues and lack of accountability and consistently. If we are talking about employment it is a whole different can of worms.
People who are employed in a professional might have contractual or legal limitations on taking on a second job, especially if they are not currently residing and working in their country of origin.
It often isn't as easy as saying "pay the mods, we can work it out, why would mods not want to be paid????" but rather we have to acknowledge first and foremost that an internet forum is an international community, often set up by people who have no experience in running businesses, and there would be no bandwidth for an experienced HR manager or department. But that's what would be needed to facilitate "pay the mods." This also means the mod selection and acceptance process is significantly more limited. It will be protected by various laws and held accountable to certain standards. This is a good thing, but it also means many people who want to be mods might not be able to, and the people who are eligible for it might not want to do the job because it is not competitive. Once it becomes a matter of employment, totally different factors come into play.
This is why for roles that require some level of agility in manpower deployment, and can tap on the passion and goodwill of people, turn into volunteer services. This is extremely common for community services, social services, and NGOs. Can this be exploitative? Absolutely. But often it is also done out of necessity. Should roles be transited into paid positions when the responsibility and scope is large enough? Yes! But the transition is never fast or easy.
I was a mod for what feels like a century on GAF. I work at a NGO doing social work now. I have seen many perspectives of this, had long discussions with fellow moderators and admins in the past and with colleagues today. I definitely believe in pushing for making people feel valued and to not exploit goodwill just because it is available. But the actual processes and red tape needed to make things "legit" in terms of paying people can really be a huge barrier to getting the resources needed. I'm not saying this to excuse it, I'm saying when you actually put your foot down and want to do these things, you will realise that there are far more things to consider than just debating about it on a forum.
I can also say that if moderation was a paid position on GAF, I would probably never have taken it on. Being a volunteer frees me from certain expectations and responsibilities, gives me total freedom to decide how much of myself I can commit at different phases of my life, and was also a good outlet for me to focus on other things when I am not working. Most of the moderators I have worked with and those I speak to even today, are employed professionals, many have families of their own. If this became a paid position, which as I have posted in this thread previously I think there are benefits to consider, these same people would probably not be moderators. That is okay too, but I think it is unfair and honestly rude for people to claim that moderators who desire to remain as volunteers have no self-respect or are delusional or whatever.
An intern can use the experience they acquire, a mod not really.
Did the topic die? Or are you just ignoring people who point out that the two things have nothing to do with each other? Because I've seen a lot of the latter still.And then when the stranger throws their hands up and says "fine then; you pay me if you feel it's important," the topic dies.
Big colonizer energyI've never seen so many people so mad at a stranger because the stranger didn't get money the stranger isn't asking for.
Exactly, that's how it should be.The most amusing thing about the "pay your mods" argument is how we're all pretending that, if it were implemented, the framing isn't going to change from "Mods deserve to be paid for their work" to "Mods are only doing what they do for money, they don't give a shit about the community" the nanosecond the next kerfuffle happens
I actually used my mod experience handling reports etc and applied those to my IRL job using Zendesk.An intern can use the experience they acquire, a mod not really.
The two things have everything to do with each other. You all pointed out a problem. I provided a solution. Most people have not taken the solution.Did the topic die? Or are you just ignoring people who point out that the two things have nothing to do with each other? Because I've seen a lot of the latter still.
So when people complain that Bezos underpays his amazon warehouse workers they should just paypal those workers their own money? I feel like the responsibilities get mixed up there.You're not supposed to do anything (that's the point of this whole topic; fundamentally nothing has changed for members or staffers). The point was that you all felt it was extremely important that staff get paid for our labor. So I, being an intrepid little bean, set up a way for you all to directly contribute since you all seem to care a lot about our financial well-being. Like, I provided a solution to the problem.
Now you're hemming and hawwing.
Do you want us to have money or nah?
The interns actually like working for free because they love the company. No issue.
Like when the boss takes the tip jar. No biggie. You were supporting the company when you gave your monthly suscription. Nothing in the thanks for your support label implies its going to the person you interacted with. Maybe you should just give them the money directly via bank transfer next time instead of expecting that their boss pays them.
why the fuck are you comparing volunteer moderator positions to amazon and jeff bezosSo when people complain that Bezos underpays his amazon workhouse workers they should just paypal those workers their own money? I feel like the responsibilities get mixed up there.
Both of them apparently send people to the emergency room (?)why the fuck are you comparing volunteer moderator positions to amazon and jeff bezos
So when people complain that Bezos underpays his amazon warehouse workers they should just paypal those workers their own money? I feel like the responsibilities get mixed up there.
So when people complain that Bezos underpays his amazon warehouse workers they should just paypal those workers their own money? I feel like the responsibilities get mixed up there.
We're not equivalent to payrolled employees. We're volunteers. Anyone can make the argument that we should become payrolled, of course, but that isn't the current situation we're dealing with here right at this moment. At the moment, you all believe us volunteers should be paid. I'm asking "What is stopping you?" If it's because you don't feel like it's your responsibility to pay us anything, despite the fact that ultimately we are providing you- the members- with a service that is laborious specifically because of the harassment and bad-faith engagement we get from some of the members...So when people complain that Bezos underpays his amazon workhouse workers they should just paypal those workers their own money? I feel like the responsibilities get mixed up there.
To illustrate the point that the person who is making the profit is obviously the one with the responsibility.why the fuck are you comparing volunteer moderator positions to amazon and jeff bezos
You're not supposed to do anything (that's the point of this whole topic; fundamentally nothing has changed for members or staffers). The point was that you all felt it was extremely important that staff get paid for our labor. So I, being an intrepid little bean, set up a way for you all to directly contribute since you all seem to care a lot about our financial well-being. Like, I provided a solution to the problem.
Now you're hemming and hawwing.
Do you want us to have money or nah?
well you did a really bad job explaining thatTo illustrate the point that the person who is making the profit is obviously the one with the responsibility.
You're not supposed to do anything (that's the point of this whole topic; fundamentally nothing has changed for members or staffers). The point was that you all felt it was extremely important that staff get paid for our labor. So I, being an intrepid little bean, set up a way for you all to directly contribute since you all seem to care a lot about our financial well-being. Like, I provided a solution to the problem.
Now you're hemming and hawwing.
Do you want us to have money or nah?
Equating corralling gamers console warring to helping the homeless. Lmao.Why do people want the mods to be paid? They're using their free time to volunteer to moderate an internet forum. Other people use their free time to volunteer picking up garbage, helping the homeless, protesting for rights etc. If you're going to pay someone to volunteer, why not do so for people that actually improve society?
I use a lot of forums and never understood the fascination with forum moderating. I respect them and moderators of all forums using their free time to do it, but that's about it.
If I were properly payrolled yes. But... I'm not. I'm a volunteer. If you want me to be payrolled, that is a different discussion for the long haul, and it's not a discussion I am above having. But right now you all are asking volunteers to be compensated.... Like...volunteer has a very specific definition.Okay, I'm gonna bite because you actually keep going with this like it's a gotcha - certainly, you must know that the argument is for ResetEra: The Business to pay you, right?
The community wants you to have the money the community already generated for the owner who cashed out. That's what people are arguing. People are saying they already gave the site income by creating, consuming, and curating content, which is using your work to help run it, and want that money to go to you because people are equating volunteers to employees, which is where the slippery slope starts and the muddiness begins.You're not supposed to do anything (that's the point of this whole topic; fundamentally nothing has changed for members or staffers). The point was that you all felt it was extremely important that staff get paid for our labor. So I, being an intrepid little bean, set up a way for you all to directly contribute since you all seem to care a lot about our financial well-being. Like, I provided a solution to the problem.
Now you're hemming and hawwing.
Do you want us to have money or nah?
The standing mods do not want to be paid. You're fighting for a cause that doesn't want it and that's completely up to them. We also don't get to see the total inner workings behind the scenes, so we have a limited view of what's really going on. It's a muddy issue because that income was also generated from us, the users. At what point does a paid employee, volunteer, and income generating user intersect? Especially since we don't know the strictness of duties and actual position responsibilities that would get you in trouble ourselves. It's a muddy slope.Maybe the community should stick together and issue an ultimatum to the people in charge. Pay the mods with a few % of ad revenue, 1 or 2% IDK, or we leave. The community paying the mods themselves is a disaster waiting to happen. The people donating the most will receive more warnings before being banned. This will produce a very toxic environment in the long run.
The members provide this site with income via ad revenue and some via the era clear membership, and also provide the sites content via posting. Moderators work to provide a non hateful environment for people to open more pageviews and post more content. It follows that money made would presumably be paid to people that keep the place running smoothly.At the moment, you all believe us volunteers should be paid. I'm asking "What is stopping you?" If it's because you don't feel like it's your responsibility to pay us anything, despite the fact that ultimately we are providing you- the members- with a service, then just say that?
I mean it is and has been for a while now.it's bugging me because it makes this place feel like it's falling apart.
So when people complain that Bezos underpays his amazon warehouse workers they should just paypal those workers their own money? I feel like the responsibilities get mixed up there.
Why do people want the mods to be paid? They're using their free time to volunteer to moderate an internet forum. Other people use their free time to volunteer picking up garbage, helping the homeless, protesting for rights etc. If you're going to pay someone to volunteer, why not do so for people that actually improve society?
If I were properly payrolled yes. But... I'm not. I'm a volunteer. If you want me to be payrolled, that is a different discussion for the long haul, and it's not a discussion I am above having. But right now you all are asking volunteers to be compensated.... Like...volunteer has a very specific definition.
The entire argument also underscores the fact that staff really aren't being listened to. What we want most is for our members to just treat us more kindly.
That's it.
That's all we want.
How did you do it when you mod under a nickname?I actually used my mod experience handling reports etc and applied those to my IRL job using Zendesk.
I didn't need to tell them that I was a moderator, for starters (well, former at the time). Without going too deep into it, the report system and some other mod tools this forum software currently uses is incredibly similar to what Zendesk is like currently. So when I started the job and they began training me, I took to Zendesk incredibly fast because of my time here.