Yeah I'm in a similar situation in maxing out my back door and mega back door, and as such, I just make regular 401k contributions to continue having a "blend" to work from in retirement but I also think my tax rate will be lower in retirement
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Retirement-Era |OT| How to Invest For Retirement
- Thread starter TheTrinity
- Start date
- OT
Yeah I'm in a similar situation in maxing out my back door and mega back door, and as such, I just make regular 401k contributions to continue having a "blend" to work from in retirement but I also think my tax rate will be lower in retirement
Well the earnings from this year's contributions are negative, so that's easy :D
I have about $20,000 to invest and I just opened a brokerage account with Fidelity. I am already maxing my 401K and have maxed my Roth IRA for this year. I missed the boat on my companies HSA unfortunately for this year.
What is the easiest investment I can make that I won't have to think at all about.
What is the easiest investment I can make that I won't have to think at all about.
For the rest of your life? Target Portfolio fund that changes its allocation from aggressive to conservative the closer to retirement you are.
I use FDEWX (Target retirement 2055), the others you can probably find if you Google FDEWX.
For a slightly more risky (e.g. forever aggressive without automatic adjustment over time), use e.g. VTI which tracks the total stock market.
Are these worth investing in if I want to retire early? I'm 23 now but I don't know when I want to retire but probably before 65
There's no 'guaranteed' retire early fund, but VTI/VTSAX are about as diverse as you can get - which minimizes downside (of a pure equity-class asset, at least) via avoiding over-exposure/trying to 'pick' winners and losers, when statistically, 8 out of 10 firms who do it for a living historically can't outpick the market - and are one of the main preferred options for boglehead/FIRE folks, or at least those who don't want to get into real estate.
If it's in a brokerage/taxable account, VTI (or ETFs in general, really) may be slightly better for tax purposes, via lessened capital gains issues leading to tax bills (such as was found by Vanguard's target-retirement fund 'scandal' for people investing in it with taxable account), but they're otherwise very similar.
That's why there's target retirement funds for every 5 years. If you think you'll retire in 2060, use that. If you think you'll retire in 2040, use that. The closer it is to end date, the more conservative the funds become.
For a fund that stays always aggressive (with all the risk and potential upside that contains), use VTI.
If you want to retire early I doubt a relatively conservative target date fund is what you're looking for.
I am also thinking of moving to Europe or Asia to live out my life. Cost of living here is just a joke for what we are getting in USA.
They work fine. Just pick a target date that is around when you'd turn 65, even if you hope to retire earlier than that.
If you are 25+ years away from the target date, you'll get a 90% stock allocation.
OP
OP
You're 23 so it's almost irrelevant what fund you pick now. They're all going to be 90%+ equities for probably 20 years.
I'm 34 and plan to retire before 50, probably 45, where retire means not working as a regular full-time employee at a corporation.
I'm invested in 100% equities still because on this timeline I have leeway to adjust retirement dates and investment ratios. The first few years around retirement are the most important for setting yourself up for success, see https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/sequence-risk.asp
not sure if this is the right spot, but I saw conversations about US bonds here a few months back.
I know the feds currently have the rates set to 6.xx% and in April it will change. If I buy a bond now, do I get locked in for six months(so until Sept) with the current rate, or will it change for everyone with the new rate in April?
I know the feds currently have the rates set to 6.xx% and in April it will change. If I buy a bond now, do I get locked in for six months(so until Sept) with the current rate, or will it change for everyone with the new rate in April?
Decided to refinance student loans again...
I'm at 4.5% locked now (5 year term). Before I refinanced, I was being more aggressive with payments since it sky rocketed to 6.5% variable from 2.1% a few years ago.
Only have just under $9K remaining and there seems to be a lot of opportunity for the foreseeable future to invest through this bear market. Therefore, I'm going have to only making the default payments over the 5-year term.
With inflation still high and earning 4% yield on my savings accounts, it does not make any sense to me to prioritize paying off this loan balance.
I also still think it's bad advice to tell people to pay off debt FIRST without understanding their financial circumstance. In that thread in the OT section about the person asking what to do with their 45K bonus, I saw a lot of specific suggestions that involved paying off debt. You don't know enough about a persons financial situation to advise them. That could be a detrimentally worse call to have someone do if we were to see a more significant decline in the market in the next few months (while already being in a bear market) if they have low interest debt without any retirement savings.
OK /endrant
I'm at 4.5% locked now (5 year term). Before I refinanced, I was being more aggressive with payments since it sky rocketed to 6.5% variable from 2.1% a few years ago.
Only have just under $9K remaining and there seems to be a lot of opportunity for the foreseeable future to invest through this bear market. Therefore, I'm going have to only making the default payments over the 5-year term.
With inflation still high and earning 4% yield on my savings accounts, it does not make any sense to me to prioritize paying off this loan balance.
I also still think it's bad advice to tell people to pay off debt FIRST without understanding their financial circumstance. In that thread in the OT section about the person asking what to do with their 45K bonus, I saw a lot of specific suggestions that involved paying off debt. You don't know enough about a persons financial situation to advise them. That could be a detrimentally worse call to have someone do if we were to see a more significant decline in the market in the next few months (while already being in a bear market) if they have low interest debt without any retirement savings.
OK /endrant
I agree with you but people have different debt comfort level. holding off paying debt to invest can make some people have a harder time sleeping at night. I don't think paying out debt is ever a 'bad' choice, just not the optimal choice in many cases. Since few people optimise there money, paying out debt always trumps consumer spending in terms of long term wealth gain.
That said, like you said, managing your finances and investments as a general flow of money (payments, interest payments long term, investments, return on investments long term and tax management) to maximise your long term wealth is definitely the path to higher net worth.
I myself leveraged my assets quite a bit earlier in life to max out the gains (and it paid out quite a bit). I don't do it as much currently but I still pay debts very slowly if I can move the money elsewhere to get an higher return.
Just as an example. When I sold my first home and bought my second one, I use an HLOC type mortgage on my new home (which I bought before selling my older home) and then when I got the money from the sale, I temporaly put the money back in the HLOC and then use the HLOC to finance the downpayment of rental property. The portion of the HLOC assigned to the rental property became tax deductible. With time transfered more and more of the loan toward the rental property part and less and less on the primary home (legally in a weird way). (I am in Canada so interest on loan on primary residence are not tax deductible but they are on investment properties).
So that equity built in the first home was used for investments instead of becoming equity in the new home AND became a tax deductible interest at the same time.
Would had it be 'safer' to just lower my mortgage debt? Sure.
Was it a huge risk to invest long term in rental properties? Certainly not on the long term, coukd have for short period.
Was 'refinancing' my mortgage (using HLOC) to turn my mortgage into a tax deductible one instead of just transfering fund from the sale of the old house to the down payment of the rental a excellent (and legal) way to 'game' the system? Sure is.
Did I make a tons of money over 15 years by having leveraged my assets that way? Sure did.
Had I bought at peak market both real estate properties would I have lost tons of money? Only if I expected to sell the properties within a few years, long term it still would have paid off.
So, In my book, you holding off paying your student loans to invest is certainly somehing I consider money-wise.
I am not necessarly advocating to be as aggressive as I was but calculated risks and looking at the big financial picture of your long term assets/interest/debt/taxes certainly make a difference.
Yes, I agree. I did not mention the stress and emotional component of decision making when it comes to this. Obviously, if paying off that reduces stress then there's really nothing wrong with paying it off for someone's own well-being (though I would ask someone who has debt at 2% or below if they understand what they actually have).
You need to check with your HR department but *every* 401k I've had they will handle the cap automatically (assuming you havn't transitioned from a different job in that year) and will give you the overage in your pay check until the end of the year. So for instance if you capped out your 401k in October then Nov and Dec your paycheck will be increased by tthe amount that would have normally been invested into the 401k for those months.
If your 401k allows after tax contributions (not all of them do) then I don't know what happens. I prefer not to put more money into the 401k than I have to because I can manage it better elsewhere.
I've been maxing my Roth IRA and 401k but I'm not familiar with the rollover situation. How does that work? Is there a specific amount you should be contributing to rollovers on a yearly basis? What is a mega rollover? I'm assuming since they are Roth that whatever funds are rolled over would be taxable. Is that correct?
Really the biggest thing is if your plan allows in-service Roth rollovers from After Tax funds.
If so, it can be lucrative but to maximize efficiency it requires doing a rollover every after-tax contribution.
If you don't have that option I probably wouldn't put the funds there and would contribute to a brokerage account I had more control over and less restrictions on.
If you're worried about match check with your company, many offer true up matches where if you max out the pre-tax they will up your match at the end of the year to make sure you didn't miss out.
But say your company doesn't true up or mega back door - then I would look to just contribute exactly what's needed each paycheck to hit the max at the end of the year and any excess just toss in your brokerage account after insuring you've made whatever IRA contribution you are entitled to.
Anyways both things to check and both things you have to think seriously about and consult your financial / tax advisors :)
So it sounds like you're kinda getting confused between Roth IRAs / Backdoor rollovers
And Roth 401ks / Mega Backdoor rollover
Ordering here is up to some debate and depends on your personal tax situation but generally you have buckets and in rough order of priority.
-401k amount employer will match (free money basically)
-IRA Contribution limit (whether direct Roth or Backdoor)
-Remaining employee contribution limit for 401k (22,500 max in 2023, whether pre-tax or Roth contributions)
-Catch-up contributions if 50 or over years old
-Maximum 401k contribution limit (up to 66,000 in 2023, including employer match total)
That last bullet is where the Mega Backdoor comes in. Some 401k plans allow you to make after tax contributions in excess of your 22,500 limit to your 401k (up to the limit of 66,000 - 22,500 - max employer annual match). The only reason to do this is that most, but not all, of those plans, then allow you to do an in service roll-over, rolling that after-tax contributions into your Roth 401k bucket. The downside of this is to avoid taxes on any gains you need to execute this every time (every paycheck) that you contribute after tax funds as until the rollover is executed any gains would be subject to taxes upon the rollover. I have read some funds do that rollover automatically which sounds nice!
Basically you can contribute an extra 30k-ish in Roth funds annually by doing this, if your employer offers it.
Congress had these back doors in their crosshairs, but for now at least, they are still open.
Thanks for the explainer! I have no idea if my employer offers this so something for me to look into.
My current plan is to max out my Roth IRA for the next few years and then draw on that for a downpayment on a home since it's much more flexible and allows for full withdrawal of contributions plus a non taxable withdrawal of up to $10000 in earnings for first time home buyers.
I'd be interested in how the Roth rollovers work for withdrawals etc towards a first home purchase
In general the Roth IRA withdrawal seems like a pretty smart way to save for a home downpayment but I'd be curious to hear others thoughts.
After languishing on my to-do list, I finally read the first post on this thread. It was both informative and interesting, but I'm still at a loss regarding my smartest possible investment for retirement. I know it should be an index fund, and it sounds like it probably would be smart to split it, but some ratio, between the Total US Stock Market and the Total International Market, but I'm not sure about the relationship between those two things and the following:
Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund
Vanguard Total International Stock Index Fund
I can actually allocate my investments toward those two Vanguard funds. Is each one basically another way of identifying the Total US Stock Market and the Total International Market? When the OP references these funds he says, "Below are the links to the funds I talked about," but that's literally the first time he references those funds by name, so I'm getting a little mixed up. In fact, I'm so turned around that I'm not even sure if my question is making any sense, but I figured I would start with this initial effort and elaborate as needed.
For what it's worth, most of my current allocations are in the first link above (Vanguard Total Stock Market) and it has done pretty well over time, but I'm also hoping I won't get hit with exorbitant fees (which is something I didn't consider when I first made the decision based on some separate recommendations).
Thanks!
Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund
Vanguard Total International Stock Index Fund
I can actually allocate my investments toward those two Vanguard funds. Is each one basically another way of identifying the Total US Stock Market and the Total International Market? When the OP references these funds he says, "Below are the links to the funds I talked about," but that's literally the first time he references those funds by name, so I'm getting a little mixed up. In fact, I'm so turned around that I'm not even sure if my question is making any sense, but I figured I would start with this initial effort and elaborate as needed.
For what it's worth, most of my current allocations are in the first link above (Vanguard Total Stock Market) and it has done pretty well over time, but I'm also hoping I won't get hit with exorbitant fees (which is something I didn't consider when I first made the decision based on some separate recommendations).
Thanks!
For Total US, use VTI instead: https://investor.vanguard.com/investment-products/etfs/profile/vti
For Total International, use VXUS instead: https://investor.vanguard.com/investment-products/etfs/profile/vxus
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The two links you posted are outdated now. They were for the mutual funds VTSMX and VGTSX, which are now closed. Basically Vanguard offers several tiers of its mutual funds. These tiers require successively larger minimum deposits, but offer lower total fees in exchange. Those two funds were part of the bottom tier. Vanguard decided to merge the two lowest tiers, so those bottom-tier funds went away.
These days I recommend using ETFs instead of mutual funds. The links I posted above are the ETF versions of those two indices.
To keep things simple, an ETF is just a different way of holding the same index fund. ETFs are nice because they have very low fees and no minimum required investment size. It used to be that ETFs lacked some features of mutual funds, like the ability to buy a fraction of a share or to automatically reinvest dividends, so there was more debate about whether ETFs or mutual funds were better. However, Vanguard has added most of those features to the ETFs in the past couple years, so now ETFs are generally better IMO. The only real downside to ETFs is that the process of buying and selling them is a bit more complicated than mutual funds for someone who is new to investing.
Thanks for the input. I'll look into the ETF options this weekend. For now, a lot of my 401k is wrapped up in something called "Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund Institutional (VITSX)." Do you think that's problematic at all in terms of inordinately high fees or anything like that? Is the ETF option you listed definitively better? Any thoughts are welcome and appreciated as I go through my research on this.
VITSX and VTI have identical expense ratios, so you would pay the same fees with either of them. The reason I recommended VTI as general advice is because it is accessible to anyone. VITSX has a $5M minimum investment, so it is only available to people who have it included in their 401K plan or who are wealthy.
There are some other minor advantages to using ETFs, but they are only relevant if you are investing in a taxable account. For your specific situation where you are using VITSX in a 401K, I see no reason to switch.
So need financial advisor advice.
Wife and I saw a financial advisor around 8 years ago at age 37. He came highly recommended. We wanted advice on investing for my new kid's college and our retirement. I told them I wanted low risk, but needed money every once in a while to do things like buy a new car and get a new roof for the house, etc.
I've always maxed my 401k. But he also sold us on, *gasp* Whole Life Insurance. Which we could borrow against when we needed it. Sinking $1k every month for the past 8 years. And now he says I shouldn't borrow from it due to interest rates. The whole thing seems stupid, now.
Realized a few years ago what a bad investment that was, and wanted to get out but sunk-cost fallacy was strong. Now I am seeing a new advisor.
My thoughts are I should just get a regular term policy that will cover my income for 10-15 years. And cash in the whole life. I want to invest properly now and become "self-insured". Enough to cover LTC, etc.
But my new advisor wants me to get Variable Universal Life, and do an exchange from my current whole life policy, which will be cheaper per month, a lower death benefit, but give me LTC insurance. I am like, I don't really want anything but term, and would rather cash out my Whole Life Policy, take the hit, and invest that more traditionally.
Not sure what to do here, I feel like I am making the right decision, but the financial advisor thinks I should do the exchange. I feel like I need to go see another advisor who will not pressure me into continuing life insurance mess.
Wife and I saw a financial advisor around 8 years ago at age 37. He came highly recommended. We wanted advice on investing for my new kid's college and our retirement. I told them I wanted low risk, but needed money every once in a while to do things like buy a new car and get a new roof for the house, etc.
I've always maxed my 401k. But he also sold us on, *gasp* Whole Life Insurance. Which we could borrow against when we needed it. Sinking $1k every month for the past 8 years. And now he says I shouldn't borrow from it due to interest rates. The whole thing seems stupid, now.
Realized a few years ago what a bad investment that was, and wanted to get out but sunk-cost fallacy was strong. Now I am seeing a new advisor.
My thoughts are I should just get a regular term policy that will cover my income for 10-15 years. And cash in the whole life. I want to invest properly now and become "self-insured". Enough to cover LTC, etc.
But my new advisor wants me to get Variable Universal Life, and do an exchange from my current whole life policy, which will be cheaper per month, a lower death benefit, but give me LTC insurance. I am like, I don't really want anything but term, and would rather cash out my Whole Life Policy, take the hit, and invest that more traditionally.
Not sure what to do here, I feel like I am making the right decision, but the financial advisor thinks I should do the exchange. I feel like I need to go see another advisor who will not pressure me into continuing life insurance mess.
I've had a Roth and 401k since 2018-2019. In my Roth u have invested in VTSAX, VSMAX, and VTIAX. Over the past six months I've been putting in anywhere from $100-250 a month all in VTSAX. I used to contribute $600 a month before having a kid in 2020.
For my 401k, I contribute currently 16% every two weeks. So that's about $826 a month taken out. My company only matches 75% of the first $1000. Then 25% of the next $1000, so in total $1000 on my first $2000. Should I lower my 401k contributions and use the money to put more in my Roth?
For my 401k, I contribute currently 16% every two weeks. So that's about $826 a month taken out. My company only matches 75% of the first $1000. Then 25% of the next $1000, so in total $1000 on my first $2000. Should I lower my 401k contributions and use the money to put more in my Roth?
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Biggest factor here I think is which is cheaper. If your 401K has lower fees/expense ratio than your Roth, might as well stick with it.
The suggestion to do 401K to company match -> max IRA/Roth -> more 401K is based on the assumption the 401K has higher fees and worse fund options than IRA providers like Vanguard or Fidelity.
So what's the math if I want to match what my company matches and that's it? Seems the expense ratio is lower on vtsax vs what principal is offering. As far 401k fund selection they do have funds that match the S&P.
I've looked at the returns for both since having them. Since 2019 my Roth has returned over 7%. My 401k around 5.88%. But of course I'm contributing way less in my Roth than 401k.
What do you think?
Edit-VTSAX has like 0.04% while all of the asset allocations I used go anywhere from 0.37-.075%
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I believe general consensus is term is all you should have and it really should be to cover your dependents needs as much as possible. Anything else is a rip off
Sounds like you've about already done it, and reducing the 401K and maxing out the Roth would probably be the better option. Just make sure you're doing $170/month at minimum in the 401K to hit the full match. Shouldn't be an issue though, since the 401K match + Roth limit is about $710 per month, and you're already doing more than that. So you would still contribute beyond the company match unless you opt for another vehicle like a HSA or something.
Thanks for the help. If I do it'll sure scare me. That's a big reduction for my 401k, but could be more beneficial obviously maxing out my Roth.
Hey sorry, but where did you come up with $170 a month for min 401k plan? My employer doesn't use % so it's confusing.
$2000 to get the full match divided by 12 months is $166ish. Rounded up to $170.
Unless that match is per month and not per year. But that sounds a little too good to be true lol
Greetings all... Just a few questions if you don't mind:
I'm just now going to be investing in stocks with my goal being for retirement. The options I'm considering are:
1. Using my companies 403(b) -- where I work doesn't match from what I've been told
2. Opening an account with a robo-advisor and invest in a ETF or target fund (any particular brokerage you would you recommend for this purpose?)
3. Open an IRA account (perhaps in conjunction with 403(b) -- if my expenses will allow
4. Or do nothing until I speak with professional financial advisor (in the stocks thread this was not recommended)
I have an pension (TRS) which I have paid into for the last 19 years, so that's something but I want more.
I am 45 years old and intend to invest for about 20 years until retirement. As it pertains to risk, I'd probably say I'd be okay with somewhere between a moderate to moderate/high level of risk. I think a goal of $1 million USD would be unattainable at my age.
Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. I'm new to stuff so bear with me I don't understand something fully.
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I'm just now going to be investing in stocks with my goal being for retirement. The options I'm considering are:
1. Using my companies 403(b) -- where I work doesn't match from what I've been told
2. Opening an account with a robo-advisor and invest in a ETF or target fund (any particular brokerage you would you recommend for this purpose?)
3. Open an IRA account (perhaps in conjunction with 403(b) -- if my expenses will allow
4. Or do nothing until I speak with professional financial advisor (in the stocks thread this was not recommended)
I have an pension (TRS) which I have paid into for the last 19 years, so that's something but I want more.
I am 45 years old and intend to invest for about 20 years until retirement. As it pertains to risk, I'd probably say I'd be okay with somewhere between a moderate to moderate/high level of risk. I think a goal of $1 million USD would be unattainable at my age.
Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. I'm new to stuff so bear with me I don't understand something fully.
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I think given you don't have any company match on the 403b:
- Start with investing max $6,500 per year into a Roth IRA (will grow tax free). If you make >$120K per year do a backdoor Roth.
- Invest as much as you can up to the max ($20,500 annually) via the 403b. While there's no match, institutions can often have a potentially better pick of funds to choose form. If the options suck you can just open your own account and robo advisor into a basket of low fee ETF index funds.
- Not sure what your health care plans look like but can also consider HSA maxing (up to $3,500)
- This all assumes you have no high debt outstanding (credit cards, student loans, etc.) which you should be addressing first (>7% interest rate)
- Can also consider 503b college plans for your kids (if you have them)
Regarding debt: The only debt I have is on Amazon Visa credit card (I don't consider a debt as I pay off the balance every month). Any other credit cards I have have $0 balances. I could stop using it for literally everything though and use my debit card more (I originally switched to using this card for the Amazon credit and to build up my credit score). However, I don't like using debit cards due to identity theft concern and liability (much easier to get your money back when using credit cards). I have no kids so that is not a concern for me.
I assume you recommend a Roth due to the likely hood my tax rate will be higher in 20 years. I've not considered an HSA because I do not have a high deductible health plan. I looked at one that my work offers and it scares me how much the deductible is and copays/coinsurance across the board are compared to my current plan.
Interesting that you say a 403b would have better funds to choose from over doing it myself (I've read the opposite on many sites--routinely listed a con of 403b's). My coworker who has one uses a Fidelity freedom target date fund, but I'm not sure that's my best option. On one hand it's appealing because I don't have to think about it (and jsut starting out that may be my best and safest route). Still, it's an option because according to their website the 2040 funds would still be like 90% stocks at my current age.
You should keep using your credit card on all purchases and pay it off each month. Free points and no harm for doing that at all.
Roth just means that any gains that your money makes over the next 20 years you will be able to pull out and pay zero taxes on it. It's not really about your rate now Vs then. It's just an easy opportunity to grow a small amount of money each year tax free which becomes super useful in the long term.
The 403b you are actually right on I guess I should have said sometimes that have better exclusive funds or have them at lower fees or waived altogether.
Is there any idea of times when people should consider reallocating? I have a 3 part portfolio and I'm pretty sure the allocation is on the aggressive side but I'm not sure when to reallocate or even how to do it properly. Would that just be sell funds, don't withdraw from the account, and then buy more of the other funds that I have?
I'm almost considering using a target date fund from Vanguard and just use only that but think I should try and get a better idea of this since I'm already in 3 funds.
I'm almost considering using a target date fund from Vanguard and just use only that but think I should try and get a better idea of this since I'm already in 3 funds.
I don't know if this is the right way, but my reallocation plan is to gradually shift my new investments into more conservative positions. What I do have in target date funds is actually shifted back 10-15 years (e.g. if I'm planning on retiring in 2035, I'm buying 2045 or 2050 target date funds) because they seem a little conservative for me.
Oh okay, that is an interesting way to do it. All new investments go into something else to cause a reallocation. So you use a TDF in addition to other funds?
I hadn't even considered buying a TDF that is farther out so I could be more aggressive. That is an interesting strategy too.
Not intentionally. They were the closest thing to low cost index funds an old employer had available in their 401k plan. When I finally get off my butt to move that account over to Fidelity, I'll probably move them into VTI, VXUS, BND to get to my preferred allocation.
My TDF is also about 10 years past my actual retirement date. It won't be more aggressive right now, but it'll stay more aggressive for longer. ;)
It depends a lot on how much you have in tax-sheltered vs taxable accounts and on your savings rate.
For example, selling funds in a taxable account is a capital gain / loss, so it isn't as "free" as it would be in a tax-sheltered account.
So I've enrolled my companies 403b now (with a massive payroll deduction so I can max it out before the end of the year) and I've open a Roth IRA. I'm using a target date fund for my 403b but I'm considering these for my IRA: VTI, VNILX, and some form of bond ETF. I'm just starting out so I'm relying on financial websites (althought I wonder how much these websites are paid for their recommendations) for recommendations as I don't yet know enough to research them on my own.
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