TheMango55

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
5,788
No it wouldn't. They/them is already a singular genderless pronoun. It's used as such all the time.

"If you encounter a person and see they're in need, you should help them."

Absolutely nothing new or unusual about it. The pushback is entirely from discomfort with non-binary people.

I think from my perspective (and don't get me wrong, I can get over this easily enough) just from my use of English, "They" seems SO informal and impersonal that it almost seems disrespectful to address someone as they if I was in their presence.

Like in your example 'they' is used to speak of a hypothetical person. In my example earlier 'they' was about a person I've never met and know nothing about. I just think subconsciously addressing someone as they would feel like I was being rude, like saying "you" when I can't remember someone's name.
 

Snack12367

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,191
Let's go one step further and get rid of gender.

That's one of the trains of thoughts in Feminism. If anyone can sum this up better please do.

There is an idea that we should remove gender or seek to tear down the idea of it, that equality can only come through its removal.

The other is that how can you combat gender based discrimination without gender. How are issues addressed about gender if we dont seek to use it.

Contrapoints explains this a lot better than I can. Can anyone remember what video she has on this?
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,983
Ah yes, people freaking about about the singular "they". The staple of non-binary threads on here.
 

TacoSupreme

Member
Jul 26, 2019
1,774
No it wouldn't. They/them is already a singular genderless pronoun. It's used as such all the time.

"If you encounter a person and see they're in need, you should help them."

Absolutely nothing new or unusual about it. The pushback is entirely from discomfort with non-binary people.

To preface, since there are so many trolls who talk about this subject, I always have and always will call people by whatever pronoun they want to use. It's just the right thing to do, and that's all that needs to be said about what people want to be called on an individual level.

That being said, the language would benefit from having a dedicated genderless singular. Even outside the realm of non-binary people there are a variety of situations that I've seen crop up in my life where people genuinely thought there was a group of people being referred to, when the conversation was only refering to a single person, because they is more commonly used to refer to groups of people. This isn't an argument that it's grammatically incorrect or that we shouldn't refer to people who want to be called they/them as they/them. I'm just arguing that a dedicated genderless singular would make the language more accurate. But it's probably too late on the one hand (so much of the language is set in stone) and too early on the other hand (too many assholes in society to make it possible to introduce new options for pronouns).

Still, at this point the best thing to do is just to say they/them, because that's probably the most likely to be accepted, and a lot of non-binary people want to be referred to by those pronouns. I'm just saying that wanting a dedicated singular doesn't have to be an argument about historical use, grammar, or necessarily even someone being an asshole.
 

GuessMyUserName

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
5,225
Toronto
I seriously don't get the "concern" of singular they at all, coming up with whole new pronoun is a much larger task than simply understanding the long-standing pronouns that are already common, familiar, and have been used this way for ages.

Not to mention the people who identify they/them like to identify they/them. Hence identifying with it over the alternative, creative pronouns that also already do exist.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,983
That being said, the language would benefit from having a dedicated genderless singular. Even outside the realm of non-binary people there are a variety of situations that I've seen crop up in my life where people genuinely thought there was a group of people being referred to, when the conversation was only refering to a single person, because they is more commonly used to refer to groups of people. This isn't an argument that it's grammatically incorrect or that we shouldn't refer to people who want to be called they/them as they/them. I'm just arguing that a dedicated genderless singular would make the language more accurate. But it's probably too late on the one hand (so much of the language is set in stone) and too early on the other hand (too many assholes in society to make it possible to introduce new options for pronouns).
It's used in the singular numerous times on a daily basis. It's not an issue. Bridging the gap to someone you know well isn't some heavy task. This accuracy argument is bizarre, words aren't static. You adopt new phrases continuously and adapt without analysing whether we should do so to further some wider sense of accuracy across everything.

That's for phrases both more recent and more distinct than a slight shift in using the same singular they that's been used for centuries.
 

TacoSupreme

Member
Jul 26, 2019
1,774
It's used in the singular on a daily basis. It's not an issue.

If you'd ever worked at a newspaper you would be aware of the number of complaints due to confusion when a writer uses they/them to refer to an event where people are unsure who, for example, the victim or perpetrator of a crime is. People genuinely get confused as to whether there were multiple victims/perpetrators. And this speaking purely about writers using they/them purely due to not knowing the identity of the person in question, nothing to do with gender identification.

Of course it's not a problem when you know the person in question identifies as they/them. But the language would definitely benefit from having a dedicated neutral singular.
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
It's kind of problematic in my simultaneously translating brain. But sure. They.

They is translated to "Sie (plural)" exactly like She which is also "Sie (singular)". I currently don't know what is the currently right terminology none binary in my language.

That never happened to me. Just respect their pronoun.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,983
If you'd ever worked at a newspaper you would be aware of the number of complaints due to confusion when a writer uses they/them to refer to an event where people are unsure who, for example, the victim or perpetrator of a crime is. People genuinely get confused as to whether there were multiple victims/perpetrators. And this speaking purely about writers using they/them purely due to not knowing the identity of the person in question, nothing to do with gender identification.
I'm sure people get confused over a number of things. The fact that they're confused over a frequent staple of the language illustrates the exact point. There's no sense pandering to people that have trouble with language that's already embedded.

Of course it's not a problem when you know the person in question identifies as they/them. But the language would definitely benefit from having a dedicated neutral singular.
Disagree, as above. It's literally used in everyday discourse. Why we should cater to some absolute minority of people that have issues with something that's long been in use is beyond me.
 

TacoSupreme

Member
Jul 26, 2019
1,774
I'm sure people get confused over a number of things. The fact that they're confused over a frequent staple of the language illustrates the exact point. There's no sense kowtowing to people that have trouble with language that's already embedded.

So I'm curious: Who is being hurt by the language having an accepted, purely optional alternative to use as a dedicated singular gender neutral pronoun, provided that people call those who wish to identify as they/them they/them? Obviously no one should be called this if they don't want to be, nor should it replace they/them.

The language evolves all the time. Why be a stick in the mud?
 
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Hypron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,059
NZ
Honestly English isn't my first language, but I hear people use the singular they absolutely all the time. I find it hard to understand why anyone would have any issues with it.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,983
So I'm curious: Who is being hurt by the language having an accepted singular gender neutral pronoun, provided that people call those who wish to identify as they/them they/them?

The language evolves all the time. Why be a stick in the mud?
This has to be the dumbest attempt at turning something around I've seen in awhile. I mean really, come the fuck on.

Who's being hurt by the current system?

How am I being a stick in the mud when you're actively arguing against how the language is moving, to suggest some word that doesn't exist. Then I'm a stick in the mud for suggesting to use the word that's in use instead of your made up word that doesn't actually exist.
 

TacoSupreme

Member
Jul 26, 2019
1,774
This has to be the dumbest attempt at turning something around I've seen in awhile. I mean really, come the fuck on.

Who's being hurt by the current system?

How am I being a stick in the mud when you're actively arguing against how the language is moving to suggest some bizarre word that doesn't exist. Then apparently I'm a stick in the mud for suggesting to use the word that's in use instead of your made up word that doesn't actually exist.

Uhh, you are aware that there are a large number of people who already identify as words like xe/xem ze/zem zhe/zhey, right? But fuck them for using a word that "lel doesn't exist."

Get real.
 

Keldroc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,124
I think from my perspective (and don't get me wrong, I can get over this easily enough) just from my use of English, "They" seems SO informal and impersonal that it almost seems disrespectful to address someone as they if I was in their presence.

Like in your example 'they' is used to speak of a hypothetical person. In my example earlier 'they' was about a person I've never met and know nothing about. I just think subconsciously addressing someone as they would feel like I was being rude, like saying "you" when I can't remember someone's name.

I think this is a very understandable view. After all, "they/them" is really just a plural version of "it" in most respects. We do use "they/them" to refer to inanimate objects pretty often. However, we also use "they/them" to refer to people, both in groups and singularly, which I think is the key difference. Maybe the degree of this varies from dialect to dialect in English, but I don't find "they/them" to be impersonal.

To preface, since there are so many trolls who talk about this subject, I always have and always will call people by whatever pronoun they want to use. It's just the right thing to do, and that's all that needs to be said about what people want to be called on an individual level.

That being said, the language would benefit from having a dedicated genderless singular. Even outside the realm of non-binary people there are a variety of situations that I've seen crop up in my life where people genuinely thought there was a group of people being referred to, when the conversation was only refering to a single person, because they is more commonly used to refer to groups of people. This isn't an argument that it's grammatically incorrect or that we shouldn't refer to people who want to be called they/them as they/them. I'm just arguing that a dedicated genderless singular would make the language more accurate. But it's probably too late on the one hand (so much of the language is set in stone) and too early on the other hand (too many assholes in society to make it possible to introduce new options for pronouns).

Still, at this point the best thing to do is just to say they/them, because that's probably the most likely to be accepted, and a lot of non-binary people want to be referred to by those pronouns. I'm just saying that wanting a dedicated singular doesn't have to be an argument about historical use, grammar, or necessarily even someone being an asshole.

You're right in concept but I think trying to get the English-speaking world to adopt a completely new word is going to be vastly more difficult than just convincing them to use "they/them" in a slightly different but parallel way. Ideally, yes, I agree a new pronoun specifically for the purpose would be a better solution.
 

TheMango55

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
5,788
It's kinda telling that the use of singular "they" in English can be found, at least, as back as the 14th Century, yet some very specific people have very specific issues with it in the 21st Century, when it became used by non-binary people.

Suddenly grammatical correctness becomes a matter of the utmost importance... *rolls eyes*

'Hastely hiȝed eche . . . þei neyȝþed so neiȝh . . . þere william & his worþi lef were liand i-fere.' In modern English, that's: 'Each man hurried . . . till they drew near . . . where William and his darling were lying together.'

How is that singular when it's talking about multiple people?
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,210
This has to be the dumbest attempt at turning something around I've seen in awhile. I mean really, come the fuck on.

Who's being hurt by the current system?

How am I being a stick in the mud when you're actively arguing against how the language is moving, to suggest some word that doesn't exist. Then I'm a stick in the mud for suggesting to use the word that's in use instead of your made up word that doesn't actually exist.
So you didn't list anybody being hurt. I assume you mean nobody is hurt then? Great, both directions seem compatible with each other then.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,983
Uhh, you are aware that there are a large number of people who already identify as words like xe/xem ze/zem zhe/zhey, right? But fuck them for using a word that "lel doesn't exist."

Get real.
Nice twisting, not sure what you're going for but I'm sure if you keep at it you'll get there.

So you didn't list anybody being hurt. I assume you mean nobody is hurt then? Great, both directions seem compatible with each other then.
Except one is being adopted prevalently as a non-gendered pronoun but apparently that's an issue for you. Literally no-one is arguing against any pronoun use aside from yourselves. Who seem to have some bizarre need for the popular one to not be they.
 

TacoSupreme

Member
Jul 26, 2019
1,774
And yet so many are so trenched in the singular they "confusion".

To answer your question: Nobody is arguing against "an accepted singular gender neutral pronoun". Those already exist, but this is the topic of someone who's happy with they/them.

I agree. It's great for Sam Smith, and I people respect their wishes and call them how they identify.

I shouldn't derail the discussion any further. But I was simply responding to people essentially saying that there was absolutely no reason for a dedicated singular pronoun aside from stubbornness or hatred.
 

TacoSupreme

Member
Jul 26, 2019
1,774
Nice twisting, not sure what you're going for but I'm sure if you keep at it you'll get there.

I'm not twisting anything. A quick look at the first dozen people I follow on twitter reveals 4 people who list those words you discarded as "made up" as their pronouns. It's disrespectful to try to shit on what those people want to be identified as because you disagree with me about this conversation.

Anyway, I'd rather not risk derailing this thread further because it should be about the celebration of Sam Smith coming out as non-binary. Good for them :)
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,210
Nice twisting, not sure what you're going for but I'm sure if you keep at it you'll get there.


Except one is being adopted prevalently as a non-gendered pronoun but apparently that's an issue for you. Literally no-one is arguing against any pronoun use aside from yourselves. Who seem to have some bizarre need for the popular one to not be they.
Where did I say to not use they/them? All I've argued is that it would be helpful to have a singular third person pronoun in English. The problem here is that you're creating opponents when nobody is opposing you.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,983
I'm not twisting anything. A quick look at the first dozen people I follow on twitter reveals 4 people who list those words you discarded as "made up" as their pronouns. It's disrespectful to try to shit on what those people want to be identified as because you disagree with me about this conversation.
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Where did I say to not use they/them? All I've argued is that it would be helpful to have a singular third person pronoun in English. The problem here is that you're creating opponents when nobody is opposing you.
Not really, the problem is people finding some issue with using they as the singular. If it wasn't an issue why are we discussing alternatives?
 
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FeistyBoots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,506
Southern California
It's times like these that I wish the English language had a gender neutral singular pronoun. It's the same issue as dealing with a generic person such as "every person for himself/herself/themselves." Even disregarding the existence of non-binary people, it's crazy that we never came up with a pronoun for people if we don't know their gender ahead of time.

It does. They.
 

Monarch1501

Designer @ Dontnod
Verified
Nov 2, 2017
162
As a non-English native speaker, I find it difficult to wrap my head around the use of plural pronouns for a single person. Every time I read "they" or "them" I can't help but imagine that we're talking about several persons, even though I know we're only talking about Sam. It's weird - while I totally respect that!

For the record, we are starting to see new pronouns popping in the french language. One that I particularly like is the word "iel".
In french, "he" equals to "il" and "she" equals to "elle". If you mix up the two french pronouns you get "iel" which can be used to describe a non-binary individual. It's pretty neat since, phonetically, you're conserving both pronouns' sounds.
 

FeistyBoots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,506
Southern California
I'm always fascinated by people that identify as non-binary. The thought of not feeling like any particular gender is alien to me. What is it that they don't identify with regarding either gender? Is it societal norms?

Either way, I respect it and support it; I just want to understand it better.

This is easy to answer yourself: what is it about your inherent sense of what gender you are that makes you not identify as any other gender? Apply that to their own inner sense of gender.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,983
Do people who complain about they as a singular pronoun even bother to check a dictionary?
It's just become a way of being able to troll and provoke trans/non-binary people without catching a slap for it. Now it's apparently moved to "I don't have a problem with pronouns, you have a problem with pronouns" 🙄. Tedious in its transparency.
 

crienne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,356
People don't seem to have an issue with the singular "they" when referring to animals, but y'all flip your shit when us enbies want you to use it for us.
 

Inugami

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,995
I don't think this is the way to go when people are selling knowledge to help them understand.
It's not my job to educate someone who's first response in the thread is "no offense but I don't get it." If you don't get it, use the infinite resources of the internet to educate yourself, or at the very least ask nicely.

"I don't understand but I'd like to try. Can anyone explain for me, or point me towards a place with more info?"

It's not my or any non binary persons job to explain the basics to each individual person who "asks" especially when most of the time it's people doing so in bad faith.
 

TacoSupreme

Member
Jul 26, 2019
1,774
People don't seem to have an issue with the singular "they" when referring to animals, but y'all flip your shit when us enbies want you to use it for us.

I was wristslapped as a child in school for using "they" as a singular. I have zero problem with non-binary people using they as a singular pronoun, and I always refer to them as they wish, I just wish that a thousand years ago the English language had included a dedicated singular non-binary. People have been complaining about this for hundreds of years. That's not to say that some people don't feign at having a problem with it simply because they're hateful.

And to be clear, I don't have a problem with it. It's just that when people start saying that there's no reason to wish that a pronoun like xe or ze should be part of the language, it makes me sad because I think the language has room for those pronouns. And there's a reason why some people wish to identify by them.
 

Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,615
Atlanta
This is easy to answer yourself: what is it about your inherent sense of what gender you are that makes you not identify as any other gender? Apply that to their own inner sense of gender.
Like I said before, I can't relate to this. It's not easy for me to answer. If my consciousness ended up in a woman's body for some reason, I wouldn't feel as if I was a man trapped in a woman's body. I'd just identify as a woman. There is literally nothing about my own identity other than my body that I consider to be inherently masculine or feminine.

Not trying to invalidate how other people view themselves, mind you.

People don't seem to have an issue with the singular "they" when referring to animals, but y'all flip your shit when us enbies want you to use it for us.
I can't think of a time where I'd have used a singular "they" in place of "it" for an animal.

It's just that when people start saying that there's no reason to wish that a pronoun like xe or ze should be part of the language, it makes me sad because I think the language has room for those pronouns. And there's a reason why some people wish to identify by them.
You're not wrong, but I bet people receive even more unwanted crap for trying to use those words than they do to get singular they accepted.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,983
And to be clear, I don't have a problem with it. It's just that when people start saying that there's no reason to wish that a pronoun like xe or ze should be part of the language, it makes me sad because I think the language has room for those pronouns. And there's a reason why some people wish to identify by them.
Zero people have an issue with that.
You have an issue with they being the singular non-gendered pronoun.

Again:
So I'm curious: Who is being hurt by the language having an accepted singular gender neutral pronoun, provided that people call those who wish to identify as they/them they/them?

The language evolves all the time. Why be a stick in the mud?
It has one. One is accepted, used daily in conversation and is being adopted prevalently by non-binary people.
 

TacoSupreme

Member
Jul 26, 2019
1,774
Zero people have an issue with that.
You have an issue with they being the singular non-gendered pronoun.

I have stated repeatedly that it would be nice to have as an alternative. As a dedicated singular, not one that also functions as a plural. I haven't once said I have a problem with it. You're making things up.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,983
I have stated repeatedly that it would be nice as an option. I haven't once said I have a problem with it. You're making things up.
When you say:
Who is being hurt by the language having an accepted singular gender neutral pronoun
You're suggesting that there isn't an accepted singular gender neutral pronoun. No one has suggested people can't use any of the other gender-neutral pronouns.