Sydle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,421
Yes, and maybe they got some dev kits at some point, but there was also other PS5 related specifics. Cloud infrastructure work, dev portals, sdks, PS5 exclusive cosmetics artwork, etc. All things you wouldn't want someone walking by to notice and inquire about without needing a devkit.

Thanks. So you believe the ABK deal essentially being closed led them to fast track a pivot.

It makes sense, but changing direction like that, so fast with as many people in tow as Xbox has under its umbrella, seems like committing to miles and miles of rough road.
 

vixolus

Prophet of Truth
Member
Sep 22, 2020
56,546
Thanks. So you believe the ABK deal essentially being closed led them to fast track a pivot.

It makes sense, but changing direction like that, so fast with as many people in tow as Xbox has under its umbrella, seems like committing to miles and miles of rough road.
I think with the announcement of ABK, the reorg of Microsoft Gaming in 2022 and even further after closing, brought about all these longer term discussions. I feel like they would have come up more in the FTC trials, though, or in the leak, and because they didn't get brought up I feel like the decisions were fast tracked as they tried to prepare for what everything looks like in a post-ABK world. And because the business wasn't growing circa 2023 they knew what direction they had to go.
 

davepoobond

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,887
www.squackle.com
Yeah the whole mess reeks of uncertainty. It's really weird strategy to say "case by case" at this point. I understand why they were saying it during the FTC/CMA drama, but now that the dust is settled and they're a mega-publisher, it has to be… hard to succeed as a mega-publisher and build a brand/fan following if you can't even commit to releasing games on the hardware they own. It's the language of a platform owner, not a publisher, and they're going to struggle to succeed in either until they use clear language.

I mean, let's say you are trying to grow Elder Scrolls or Fallout fans on PlayStation and Nintendo. Let's even say that you release remastered version of Oblivion or FO3 on PS5. Can you still not say if you're releasing FO5 and ES6 on PS5/6? Let's say Doom 3 jumps to PS5. When can they confirm other id titles?

Likewise what if I want to consider an Xbox next gen but I'm a PS5 owner today. When do I get to know what games are going to be exclusive? Even if you tell me Elder Scrolls is, what if you're telling me to wait to see with Fallout because that's still case-by-case? Am I supposed to guess?

It's so backward to play this "hmm we dunno, we love our PS5 community! But you'll just have to wait to see on a case by case basis how far that love goes! Have you bought anything in Minecraft lately?"

oh yeah, consoles are seen as an investment, and this whole whatever it is they are doing right now completely undercuts that. I would be very unsatisfied as an Xbox owner right now. I don't think any console owner has had to deal with this kind of wishy washy nonsense before now
 

GillianSeed79

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,398
I might be completely off base, but to me it seems like Natella let Spencer and Co. at Xbox (which historically has been a loss leader) bet big on Game Pass and acquisitions, but when Starfield and the ABK acquisition didn't really move the needle in terms of hardware sales and subs then the higher ups in charge of the purse strings demanded that they stop the bleeding to ensure some ROI.

I mean I think the vision of Gamepass coupled with a strong first party lineup of games from numerous partner studios was a good sales pitch, but it seems like the Xbox division has fumbled the software rollout every step of the way from the botched Halo launch, Redfall, Starfield not setting the world on fire, endless game delays, etc. Right now it seems like Xbox's Sega Saturn era, because everyone is running around like Don Mattrick with their heads cut off trying to come up with some coherent vision or road plan for the future that actually turns a decent profit. Again, I'm probably completely wrong
 

Watership

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,153
It feels less like a power struggle to me and more like Spencer wildly overestimated how much of a leash he'd get from Nadella in terms of time and money spent on Game Pass after spending $70 billion on a company that was driving down the road to financial ruin on its own.
Even Nadella answers to the board which represents the shareholders. I don't doubt that the board wanted this, along with CFO Amy Hood. Nadella made the call and put the decision of what studios to close on Phil and his team. I'd say no one at Xbox ever wanted this.
 

Sydle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,421
I think with the announcement of ABK, the reorg of Microsoft Gaming in 2022 and even further after closing, brought about all these longer term discussions. I feel like they would have come up more in the FTC trials, though, or in the leak, and because they didn't get brought up I feel like the decisions were fast tracked as they tried to prepare for what everything looks like in a post-ABK world. And because the business wasn't growing circa 2023 they knew what direction they had to go.

The bits from the FTC trial that make that hard to reconcile is Phil's proposal to buy Sega and keep it multi-plat back in 2020 (before the gen even started) and then his FTC testimony that there was no console growth built into the model for the ABK acquisition. That means as far back as late 2021 and working things out with Amy Hood's team to justify the acquisition that they were looking beyond their own console for growth.

Maybe they were betting big on the cloud being that big avenue of growth and not competing consoles?
 

StrangeADT

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,092
It feels less like a power struggle to me and more like Spencer wildly overestimated how much of a leash he'd get from Nadella in terms of time and money spent on Game Pass after spending $70 billion on a company that was driving down the road to financial ruin on its own.
I don't know how many studios have to close and people have to get laid off before we as a community stop extending the leash for Spencer with respect to how we interpret these actions. Like why the gentle language for Spencer? The narrative of the evil Nadella forcing his hand keeps popping up and I can't understand why. I know we wanted to believe that Spencer was good guy but at a certain point I just can't understand why that continues. He has been in an exec position for a long time. If he truly doesn't agree with these actions, he could absolutely resign with very few personal consequences if he has had a modicum of financial responsibility in his life.

His actions have shown that best he is saving his own butt, and at worst this is all part of his personal ambition and very little consideration is being given to those who've lost their jobs or studios who have been torn to pieces by hostile contractor policies etc.
 

Great Martinez Jr.

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Feb 2, 2021
3,035
Mexico
So, my take:

Nadella's really into subscription-based cloud software. It was his opening salvo to get the CEO job, it brought Microsoft a ton of recent success, and Spencer managed to convince him of the idea of Game Pass by pointing out how well it dovetails with what Nadella likes. That way, they could sell Game Pass as a service to Samsung and TCL and Nintendo and so forth.

(It's also worth noting that Nadella absolutely loves that Spencer bet on Mojang and considers him a visionary in the gaming space because of that.)

My suspicion is that Game Pass was always supposed to be an argument for cloud gaming. They start with downloadable, make a cloud service, and then the audience (in their minds) moves entirely over to playing Like a Dragon on a phone. But adoption wasn't quick and game pass numbers — which they always say are satisfactory but they love to pick and choose by what metrics — were pretty slow as well.

Which meant that Game Pass could not satisfy the goals they had for it.

1) Make enough off subscription costs to offset traditional sales
2) Be a bridge to a cloud service that is on everything
3) Drive hardware with separate Game Pass environments

When you don't satisfy those goals, that means the entire software development strategy has to fall without that cornerstone. You can't afford to make huge games that don't benefit from people buying them to recoup development costs and you cannot take away any of the constantly marketed core tenets of game pass (easy in-out subscriptions for consumers and day one first-party releases) either. Thus, the multiplatform strategy.

In theory, I think it's actually smart. They give up an edge on hardware (where they were doing poorly anyway) in exchange for games that they can sell anywhere to different audiences. But in order to make games that sell on other systems, they have to wait years they do not have and spend money they do not want to spend to get them there. Outside of Call of Duty, I don't see that happening from every arm of XGS.

This is all a very long way of saying they're stuck between a rock and a hard place and my bet is that they load the cannon with everything they've got rather than being precious about exclusivity. This is not inside information, but yes, I suspect the Gears and the Forzas and all that will eventually get ported because they are not getting any cheaper to make and Game Pass is strangling them more than they will admit. Hell, the Coalition was making another game before Gears that they were then ordered to pivot from because Microsoft could not afford to wait that long for a new Gears game (again, that's public, not inside information).

Thanks for your insight. Definitely feels like the road ahead for them is very rough.
 

Sayuz

Member
Apr 29, 2019
976
Dina: "Xbox itself's heritage is in console. The energy around the console right now is a little challenged, many of the hardcore long-term consumers are worried, worried about the release on other platforms, worried that it may indicate that Xbox is defocusing on its own hardware. What do you say to them? How do you make them feel that Xbox is still for them?"

Sarah: "Yeah, at first the worry that I see is happening across the industry and I think that a lot of what we see is just industry all up.

giphy.gif


Yeah, you know, I'm not so sure PlayStation and Nintendo fans are worried about those brands abandoning their platforms and not releasing new hardware in the future, or leaning into focusing on publishing first party games on rival platforms.

Seems a lot less like an industry wide problem, and a very specific Xbox only problem.
 

Gavalanche

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 21, 2021
18,436
giphy.gif


Yeah, you know, I'm not so sure PlayStation and Nintendo fans are worried about those brands abandoning their platforms and not releasing new hardware in the future, or leaning into focusing on publishing first party games on rival platforms.

Seems a lot less like an industry wide problem, and a very specific Xbox only problem.

Yeah there are industry wide problems that happen to also affect Xbox, and Xbox also has their own. She is basically merging the two together.
 

BaconHat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,173
I really hope the rumored Banjo game survive to completion in the current clusterfuck that seems to be Xbox situation.
 

Cathode Ray

Member
Mar 30, 2024
165
NYC
yeah i'm gonna believe all that until they change their minds in 5 minutes and undo literally everything they said.

there is zero reason to trust anything an Xbox exec is saying right now because even they don't know where their business is heading.
Yea exactly. Get an interview with Microsoft's CFO about the future of Xbox and I'll actually pay attention lol. These mouthpieces are not calling the shots any longer and haven't been since ABK.
 

tmac456

Member
May 27, 2020
1,296
A good ol fashioned suit battle. Fun.

Game Pass was clearly miscalculated and the ABK purchase put an enormous microscope on the division as a whole. As someone that let their GP sub run out in January and has zero interest in COD, I'm still incredibly curious to how they are going to end up navigating those waters with GP.
 

Neo Ankh

Member
Oct 12, 2019
787
She seems to talk up the cloud, game pass and the next gen system so I expect some or all of these things to be next on the chopping block.
 

KamenSenshi

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,897
Seems a lot less like an industry wide problem, and a very specific Xbox only problem.
Yeah, they keep trying to deflect by painting their issues as everyones but I dont think thats going to be as effective as it has been. Glad to see people moving beyond still blaming Matrick cause at least he presented a vision, as unliked/offputting as it was. They need one of those now and only one that they actually stick with.
 

JohnnyToonami

Member
Dec 16, 2018
5,535
Earth
We should have a betting thread about CoD day one on game pass. I would vote no.
I was saying no up till I saw this thread. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if they do put it on Game Pass and don't raise the price after they see all the heat they've been catching...

Only to be bewildered in a years time why CoD sales plummeted and how adding it to Game Pass didn't do anything for sub numbers.
They'll then do more layoffs or studio closures because of this.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,408
The bits from the FTC trial that make that hard to reconcile is Phil's proposal to buy Sega and keep it multi-plat back in 2020 (before the gen even started) and then his FTC testimony that there was no console growth built into the model for the ABK acquisition. That means as far back as late 2021 and working things out with Amy Hood's team to justify the acquisition that they were looking beyond their own console for growth.

Maybe they were betting big on the cloud being that big avenue of growth and not competing consoles?

It's that and mobile. They prototyped a cheap streaming box (Spencer has even had it in his backgrounds before and spoken about it) but the costs (especially with the pandemic) never got low enough for them to feel it would land in the market. And then with mobile, the elephant in the room is CoD Mobile. Supposedly Apple Arcade has tens of millions of subs, that's definitely a pie that Nadella wants a piece of with a Game Pass Mobile service of some kind.

Also consoles as an overall market are flat so they definitely wouldn't plan for growth there either way at that time.
 
Feb 16, 2022
15,063
Buying up IPs and closing their original studios down, Xbox's future is as an IP vulture I guess

Embracer on steroids, but at least Embracer is still open to selling the IPs out again
 

Eamon

Prophet of Truth
Member
Apr 22, 2020
3,620
So, my take:

Nadella's really into subscription-based cloud software. It was his opening salvo to get the CEO job, it brought Microsoft a ton of recent success, and Spencer managed to convince him of the idea of Game Pass by pointing out how well it dovetails with what Nadella likes. That way, they could sell Game Pass as a service to Samsung and TCL and Nintendo and so forth.

(It's also worth noting that Nadella absolutely loves that Spencer bet on Mojang and considers him a visionary in the gaming space because of that.)

My suspicion is that Game Pass was always supposed to be an argument for cloud gaming. They start with downloadable, make a cloud service, and then the audience (in their minds) moves entirely over to playing Like a Dragon on a phone. But adoption wasn't quick and game pass numbers — which they always say are satisfactory but they love to pick and choose by what metrics — were pretty slow as well.

Which meant that Game Pass could not satisfy the goals they had for it.

1) Make enough off subscription costs to offset traditional sales
2) Be a bridge to a cloud service that is on everything
3) Drive hardware with separate Game Pass environments

When you don't satisfy those goals, that means the entire software development strategy has to fall without that cornerstone. You can't afford to make huge games that don't benefit from people buying them to recoup development costs and you cannot take away any of the constantly marketed core tenets of game pass (easy in-out subscriptions for consumers and day one first-party releases) either. Thus, the multiplatform strategy.

In theory, I think it's actually smart. They give up an edge on hardware (where they were doing poorly anyway) in exchange for games that they can sell anywhere to different audiences. But in order to make games that sell on other systems, they have to wait years they do not have and spend money they do not want to spend to get them there. Outside of Call of Duty, I don't see that happening from every arm of XGS.

This is all a very long way of saying they're stuck between a rock and a hard place and my bet is that they load the cannon with everything they've got rather than being precious about exclusivity. This is not inside information, but yes, I suspect the Gears and the Forzas and all that will eventually get ported because they are not getting any cheaper to make and Game Pass is strangling them more than they will admit. Hell, the Coalition was making another game before Gears that they were then ordered to pivot from because Microsoft could not afford to wait that long for a new Gears game (again, that's public, not inside information).
Great post!
 

Watershed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,929
I really hope the rumored Banjo game survive to completion in the current clusterfuck that seems to be Xbox situation.
Maybe I'm jaded but Banjo does not seem like the kind of high impact IP Xbox heads are talking about prioritizing with these studio closures. If anything it feels more like a Vicarious Visions situation.
 

Gavalanche

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 21, 2021
18,436
Maybe I'm jaded but Banjo does not seem like the kind of high impact IP Xbox heads are talking about prioritizing with these studio closures. If anything it feels more like a Vicarious Visions situation.

Nah but if it is already in development they might let it come out and then do nothing with it afterwards unless it is a huge hit. If a project is far enough along I don't think k they will just cancel projects willy nilly.
 

mentok15

Member
Dec 20, 2017
7,530
Australia
It's that and mobile. They prototyped a cheap streaming box (Spencer has even had it in his backgrounds before and spoken about it) but the costs (especially with the pandemic) never got low enough for them to feel it would land in the market. And then with mobile, the elephant in the room is CoD Mobile. Supposedly Apple Arcade has tens of millions of subs, that's definitely a pie that Nadella wants a piece of with a Game Pass Mobile service of some kind.

Also consoles as an overall market are flat so they definitely wouldn't plan for growth there either way at that time.
Apple Arcade numbers are probably overinflated a bit because it's part of the Apple One sub. I have arcade through that but wouldn't if not bundled with other subs.
 

DJtal

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,504
Capetown / South Africa
The only momentum left or going on for Xbox has been more and more crushed since the beginning of the year. None of my friends cared about Xbox now you can certainly feel they don't even want to hear about it.

Well done, guys at the helm!!! At least you got your millions and can live the rest of your life making stupid decisions, it won't matter....
 

Darmik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
716
I think it's maybe not all that great of a sign that both times Sarah Bond has talked about future hardware recently it's solely been about power, backwards compatibility and cloud saves between different devices.

At this point I think the audience will want something a bit better. I can maintain my library just fine by keeping the Xbox I have today. Why would I buy the next thing?

I get it's early days but it doesn't exactly sound like an exciting vision for the future. If it happens at all.

Xbox continues to sorely lack some sort of creative or artistic voice to be a face for their brand. Of course it's evident that this isn't talent that Xbox sees inherent value in considering their history. So instead we'll continue to see executives talking about empowering visions that rarely seem to pan out.
 

Ostrav

Member
Feb 14, 2023
368
I'm gonna take that with a pinch of salt, Sarah.
It'll be interesting to see how things play out over the rest of the year.

I think she seems keen to move onto the next generation sooner rather than later.
 

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,167
Considering Xbox strategy is an evermorphing blob at this point, nothing she says really matters honestly. It's hard to believe anything when it might change in two months completely.
 

Zep

Member
Jul 12, 2021
1,510
How much overruling does Phil take before everything comes to a head? Like is he someone that's adamant about Starfield staying exclusive to Xbox (console wise) and is willing to fight that? Curious where he draws the line before he just…leaves.
 

Tmespe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,506
I'll buy the next hardware if they open it up and put Steam on there. If not I'm never touching their hardware again.
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,987
Microsoft lost trust so now it should be "show, don't tell" instead of more promises.

And someone should have asked her about offline patch for Redfall that was apparently almost ready if she is so into game preservation.
 

OldBritBloke

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,251
Their next console will inevitably be focused on trying to force AI into your lifestyle in the same way that Xbox One was originally focused on being your home entertainment hub.

"When I said our next hardware would be a giant technological leap, I meant it. Xbox Series couldn't write a song for you. But Xbox Copilot can."
 

neoak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,439
Their next console will inevitably be focused on trying to force AI into your lifestyle in the same way that Xbox One was originally focused on being your home entertainment hub.

"When I said our next hardware would be a giant technological leap, I meant it. Xbox Series couldn't write a song for you. But Xbox Copilot can."
If only they had kept the Cortana name. Sigh.