Vanillalite

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,709
These are people who actually GET IT....

I always hated the comparison as college courses, subject matter, scheduling, maturity level expectations ect... for someone 18 or 19 vs an 11 yo in middle school with piles of hw doesn't equate.

I say this as someone who took all of the usual top flight crap in hs, who's wife was valedictorian of her hs, who's kids go to top magnet schools around here, and I'm an adjunct college professor.

Meanwhile my daughter is on hour 5 of her nightly hw with at least another hour to go.
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,488
Maybe it should tell you something if people keep telling you that. But have fun being a shitty teacher anyway.


I'll go ahead and join him in reporting this post. He is absolutely right.

While I agree with the notion that homework shouldn't be piled on just for the sake of giving kids copious amounts of busy work, it is often an invaluable way to practice the skills that are introduced in the classroom.

Teaching is not telling. It takes guided, then group, then independent practice. A teacher's day is often broken into prescribed blocks of time which are themselves abbreviated by testing, behavior issues, and other things.

Again, there is NO TEACHING METHOD THAT OUTDOES PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT. And where are parents? At home.
 

Nazo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,848
I'll go ahead and join him in reporting this post. He is absolutely right.

While I agree with the notion that homework shouldn't be piled on just for the sake of giving kids copious amounts of busy work, it is often an invaluable way to practice the skills that are introduced in the classroom.

Teaching is not telling. It takes guided, then group, then independent practice. A teacher's day is often broken into prescribed blocks of time which are themselves abbreviated by testing, behavior issues, and other things.

Again, there is NO TEACHING METHOD THAT OUTDOES PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT. And where are parents? At home.

I've cooled off a bit, and yeah, I can see that. and I do apologize but if you feel the need to report please do. I'm not going to pretend what I just did wasn't wrong and accept my appropriate punishment.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
12,309
I always hated the comparison as college courses, subject matter, scheduling, maturity level expectations ect... for someone 18 or 19 vs an 11 yo in middle school with piles of hw doesn't equate.

I say this as someone who took all of the usual top flight crap in hs, who's wife was valedictorian of her hs, who's kids go to top magnet schools around here, and I'm an adjunct college professor.

Meanwhile my daughter is on hour 5 of her nightly hw with at least another hour to go.
Nod. Excessive and mandatory homework should be drastically reduced in my opinion. With that being said, it would impossible for me to adequately prepare my AP students for the College Board exam without requiring outside class time for reading/notes/practice/etc. I typically assign 5-8 pages of outside of reading per week. Doing so allows them to come to class to engage in a discussion with a partner, practice writing skills in class, peer grade, etc.

I think the days of giving 1-30 odd/even problems each night is archaic. Not all students need the practice. I would never assign something like that for homework.
I've cooled off a bit, and yeah, I can see that. and I do apologize but if you feel the need to report please do. I'm not going to pretend what I just did was wrong and accept my appropriate punishment.
You made a blanket statement that if teachers couldn't educate students in the allotted time in the classroom then that means they are a failure. It is absurd and fully shows a lack of understanding of the reality that teachers are dealing with on a daily basis.

I have students that are special education, gifted and talented, 504, LEP, and traditional all in the same classroom. This is the reality of education in this country. As such I replied that the expectation that all students are going to arrive with the same needs is crazy. Some of those students are fundamentally going to need to work on abilities in either tutorials or via homework.

You also said that "most jobs don't have you working after hours". Again, I fundamentally disagree, I also find it to be hilarious given that this is a thread about education and teachers as a whole work more outside of traditional work hours than the majority of professions. With that said, I think more and more professions are requiring people to work "off the clock".

You then called me a shitty teacher because I didn't agree with your opinion. How would you feel if I called someone a shitty parent because they didn't agree with me?
 
Last edited:

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,236
This thread made me remember that I basically never did homework at home. I pretty much always finished it at school. For instance if 1st period science assigned HW, i'd do it during 4th period english. Then I'd do my english homework in 6th period history. If I didn't finish my history HW that day, I'd just do it on the bus or in 1st period the next day.
 

Swauny Jones

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,863
I always hated the comparison as college courses, subject matter, scheduling, maturity level expectations ect... for someone 18 or 19 vs an 11 yo in middle school with piles of hw doesn't equate.

I say this as someone who took all of the usual top flight crap in hs, who's wife was valedictorian of her hs, who's kids go to top magnet schools around here, and I'm an adjunct college professor.

Meanwhile my daughter is on hour 5 of her nightly hw with at least another hour to go.

And is she knew how to manage her time properly she wouldn't be in hour 5 of her home work. She'd be done it all.
 

Calamari41

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,172
Nod. Excessive and mandatory homework should be drastically reduced in my opinion. With that being said, it would impossible for me to adequately prepare my AP students for the College Board exam without requiring outside class time for reading/notes/practice/etc. I typically assign 5-8 pages of outside of reading per week. Doing so allows them to come to class to engage in a discussion with a partner, practice writing skills in class, peer grade, etc.

I think the days of giving 1-30 odd/even problems each night is archaic. Not all students need the practice. I would never assign something like that for homework.

Yeah this sounds like a good way to do it. Less what people traditionally think of when they think of homework, and more like guided studying.

And btw, which AP course do you teach? Some of those can be absolute monsters. AP Bio in particular was more intense than any college course I ended up taking, including higher level bio courses. Bless you for taking it on, whichever one it is. None are anywhere close to easy, either on the students or the teachers.
 

BrickArts295

GOTY Tracking Thread Master
Member
Oct 26, 2017
14,061
I would agree with most subjects but how do you deal with subjects like Math or Chemistry if you don't practice the formulas?
Not that I'm complaining since I always hated math homework from the books. I swear the teachers always used the easiest examples leaving us to solve the harder ones for housework and if you didn't learn to solve those you were pretty much screwed come test time.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,309
Yeah this sounds like a good way to do it. Less what people traditionally think of when they think of homework, and more like guided studying.

And btw, which AP course do you teach? Some of those can be absolute monsters. AP Bio in particular was more intense than any college course I ended up taking, including higher level bio courses. Bless you for taking it on, whichever one it is. None are anywhere close to easy, either on the students or the teachers.
It has gotten better, but this is something that parents must get involved in. You want a longer school day? You want slightly less of a summer break and more breaks (think spring break) around September/October? Block scheduling? Built in study hall, drafting of particular students, etc.? Please contact your district and go to school board meetings, as a whole they listen to you guys far more than they listen to educators.

I teach AP World History to 10th grade students, it is absurd if I'm being blunt. College Board has made a drastic redesign this year in an effort to alleviate some of the content. I have talked to my students that have went off to college and they openly state that the AP class was harder than their college level history courses. With that said, they also say that nothing better prepared them for the reading/writing requirements than AP courses.
 

Truly Gargantuan

Still doesn't have a tag :'(
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,034
If homework was gone when I was in school I would have had almost straight A's. I never did my heckin HW and my grades paid for it.
 

Nazo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,848
You made a blanket statement that if teachers couldn't educate students in the allotted time in the classroom then that means they are a failure. It is absurd and fully shows a lack of understanding of the reality that teachers are dealing with on a daily basis.

I have students that are special education, gifted and talented, 504, LEP, and traditional all in the same classroom. This is the reality of education in this country. As such I replied that the expectation that all students are going to arrive with the same needs is crazy. Some of those students are fundamentally going to need to work on abilities in either tutorials or via homework.

You also said that "most jobs don't have you working after hours". Again, I fundamentally disagree, I also find it to be hilarious given that this is a thread about education and teachers as a whole work more outside of traditional work hours than the majority of professions. With that said, I think more and more professions are requiring people to work "off the clock".

You then called me a shitty teacher because I didn't agree with your opinion. How would you feel if I called someone a shitty parent because they didn't agree with me?
And you're 100% correct. I was being a complete shit head. I have no excuses.
 

Vanillalite

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,709
And is she knew how to manage her time properly she wouldn't be in hour 5 of her home work. She'd be done it all.

This is crazy ignorant as that presumes you already know what her homework is, how long it should take her, and that somehow her time management is bad.

This is ignorant at best and down right malicious at worst.
 

Swauny Jones

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,863
This is crazy ignorant as that presumes you already know what her homework is, how long it should take her, and that somehow her time management is bad.

This is ignorant at best and down right malicious at worst.

No teacher gives 5 hours worth of homework that's expected to be completed daily so the ignorant part is your exaggeration of your story to prove your point. Kids are also given plenty of time in class to complete a lot of the work given so if their home work is taking up most of the evenings when they get home you dam sure have a time management problem on your hands. This is exactly the thing I prepare my kids for so it is not an issue.
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,463
I don't know what the 5+ hours of homework is on but I really hope that's highschool and that's AP classes. AP classes are basically the equivalent of college credit so abolishing homework in those seems absurd anyway. But if your kid has 5 hours of homework regularly, that seems like a gigantic problem, like either they took on too many high level classes at the same time or the expectations are ridiculous.

Now if it was like me in highschool and I just procrastinated, then so be it. But regularly? Ridiculous.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,435
So like we are taught a concept in calculus for example, and go over some problems in class, everyone gets it. But we have to go home and literally do pages of problems that night.

This is literally how you learn math.

I can always tell when my students (this is at the college level) didn't get into a good homework mindset in high school. "How can I get faster with these trig concepts? It takes me way longer to get the answer. I know how to do it, but it takes me awhile." Stuff like that.

Homework! There are 168 hours in a week, and they're in my class for 3 of them. Literally like 2% of their week. That simply isn't enough. It's like trying to learn an instrument, or a foreign language by only using it for 3 hours a week (an hour at a time too).

What's killing certain places in education is the idea that school is like work. A thing you clock into, do the barest requirements, and clock out. When that mindset takes hold, good fucking luck. I imagine the same is true for reading (how are you gonna have them read books without homework?), and really, most subjects. Getting educated and wanting to learn isn't a dumb check mark that you put down to get the govt off your back. It's how you get good citizens.

I'd be a complete failure as an educator if I let a class off the hook after "everyone gets it" one time in front of me (assuming they're even telling the truth). If they really "got it," then their homework should be a free grade buffer. It often isn't. And thinking "well, if you cancel it because they're bad at it, won't their grade go up?" isn't how it works either. They just find out they didn't really "get it" when they fail a full exam instead of a single HW assignment.
 

Swauny Jones

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,863
This is literally how you learn math.

I can always tell when my students (this is at the college level) didn't get into a good homework mindset in high school. "How can I get faster with these trig concepts? It takes me way longer to get the answer. I know how to do it, but it takes me awhile." Stuff like that.

Homework! There are 168 hours in a week, and they're in my class for 3 of them. Literally like 2% of their week. That simply isn't enough. It's like trying to learn an instrument, or a foreign language by only using it for 3 hours a week (an hour at a time too).

What's killing certain places in education is the idea that school is like work. A thing you clock into, do the barest requirements, and clock out. When that mindset takes hold, good fucking luck. I imagine the same is true for reading (how are you gonna have them read books without homework?), and really, most subjects. Getting educated and wanting to learn isn't a dumb check mark that you put down to get the govt off your back. It's how you get good citizens.

I'd be a complete failure as an educator if I let a class off the hook after "everyone gets it" one time in front of me (assuming they're even telling the truth). If they really "got it," then their homework should be a free grade buffer. It often isn't. And thinking "well, if you cancel it because they're bad at it, won't their grade go up?" isn't how it works either. They just find out they didn't really "get it" when they fail a full exam instead of a single HW assignment.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Thanks for this
 

ElMexiMerican

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,510
A lot of my high school classes were basically structured around "Here's homework for the material you're going to learn as you do it, and then in class the next day we will go over it and I'll explain how the material works." Now, my school's size was very small (<100 people in each graduating class), so I thought the way I learned was okay because if a student was struggling teachers had ample time to attend to multiple students. I can see how that structure wouldn't be possible in a lot of places.

I also remember usually having a lot of homework every day (it would be close to 3-5 hours of my night). Some nights I would just be overwhelmed by the amount of homework I would have and I would get really bad anxiety attacks from it (which I feel like I've carried on in to my life post-school). That much homework is not beneficial for any individual, regardless of the classes you take imo. There needs to be time to decompress from schoolwork every day.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,309
I'd be a complete failure as an educator if I let a class off the hook after "everyone gets it" one time in front of me (assuming they're even telling the truth). If they really "got it," then their homework should be a free grade buffer. It often isn't. And thinking "well, if you cancel it because they're bad at it, won't their grade go up?" isn't how it works either. They just find out they didn't really "get it" when they fail a full exam instead of a single HW assignment.
Yah this is exceptionally on point. Students as a whole are good as displaying basic understanding in class when we are discussing a topic. Oh yah, we all get it. See, look here, I provided an accurate and coherent response to this short-answer question from CB. Get to the actual exam and they completely ignored the prompt and failed to address the theme that was being asked. I can only imagine how much worse this is in a math class.
 

Kuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,193
I'm glad I learned to not do homework and just social engineer my way through life. Helps I got a massive 12 inch brain too.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,435
Yah this is exceptionally on point. Students as a whole are good as displaying basic understanding in class when we are discussing a topic. Oh yah, we all get it. See, look here, I provided an accurate and coherent response to this short-answer question from CB. Get to the actual exam and they completely ignored the prompt and failed to address the theme that was being asked. I can only imagine how much worse this is in a math class.

Honestly, you get a lot of blank answers. They "totally got it" during class*

*When they had me there**
**And my notes***
***And it didn't count****
****And they had 49 classmates. I can't ask them all to individually explain to me how to do it.


Then on the exam, they see the problem and totally blank. And it's because they never bothered to practice. The difference between doing something (math, reading, history DBQs, anything) where you have various assistive tools around and doing that same thing in a test environment is massive.

I give my students a practice exam, and I'm adamant that they aren't truly prepared for the real one unless they can get a good score on the practice one with zero notes and a timer. So many of them can get a perfect 100% on my practice exam but only by peeking at notes or taking 5 hours (for a one hour exam). It just doesn't work that way. You can't drift through the lecture and then just suddenly be good at the subject. No skill works like that for most people.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,309
I also remember usually having a lot of homework every day (it would be close to 3-5 hours of my night). Some nights I would just be overwhelmed by the amount of homework I would have and I would get really bad anxiety attacks from it (which I feel like I've carried on in to my life post-school). That much homework is not beneficial for any individual, regardless of the classes you take imo. There needs to be time to decompress from schoolwork every day.
Everyone seemingly remembers having 3-5 hours of homework every day, me too, but if I'm being honest I think it is a inaccurate representation of education then much less now. I distinctly remember during all these nights of having 3-5 hours of homework that I played Magic and videogames for a solid 3-5 hours each night. Somehow I got home around 4pm did this stuff for 6-10 hours and was in bed by 9-10pm every night. The point is I think when we look back on this stuff we exaggerate to a great degree.
 

Ricelord

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,499
i really don't recall homework taking a lot of time to do in highschool. pretty sure most of the time i do it doing lunch and sometime doing another class.
 

Vanillalite

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,709
It has gotten better, but this is something that parents must get involved in. You want a longer school day? You want slightly less of a summer break and more breaks (think spring break) around September/October? Block scheduling? Built in study hall, drafting of particular students, etc.? Please contact your district and go to school board meetings, as a whole they listen to you guysI teach AP World History to 10th grade students, it is absurd if I'm being blunt. College Board has made a drastic redesign this year in an effort to alleviate some of the content. I have talked to my students that have went off to college and they openly state that the AP class was harder than their college level history courses. With that said, they also say that nothing better prepared them for the reading/writing requirements than AP courses.

The last part is true. My AP Euro History class was crazy compared to my college history courses lol


No teacher gives 5 hours worth of homework that's expected to be completed daily so the ignorant part is your exaggeration of your story to prove your point. Kids are also given plenty of time in class to complete a lot of the work given so if their home work is taking up most of the evenings when they get home you dam sure have a time management problem on your hands. This is exactly the thing I prepare my kids for so it is not an issue.

This is the exact kind of presumption I'm talking about. She has a different teacher for all of her subjects.

Also maybe where you live they have extra free time in class but my kids don't. I didn't either at the private school I was sent to and neither did my wife at the private school she went to too.

Hell at orientation for the magnet school they literally said expect long nights of hw, mental breakdowns, crying, lying, and everything in between due to the course load.

What do I know? I'm just the involved parent of the actual child in question at the actual school in question.
 

ElMexiMerican

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,510
Everyone seemingly remembers having 3-5 hours of homework every day, me too, but if I'm being honest I think it is a inaccurate representation of education then much less now. I distinctly remember during all these nights of having 3-5 hours of homework that I played Magic and videogames for a solid 3-5 hours each night. Somehow I got home around 4pm did this stuff for 6-10 hours and was in bed by 9-10pm every night. The point is I think when we look back on this stuff we exaggerate to a great degree.
And there probably are a lot of instances of that, but I also feel like at least some of those days were very much real because I remember the times I would have an anxiety attack at like 8 PM because I would hit a wall on my homework and my parents weren't ever able to help me.

I know my teachers never tried to pile on the homework because they knew the workload was more intensive, but there were definitely points where it was unavoidable, whether it was because we were halfway through the grading period or there were the state tests coming up.
 

Swauny Jones

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,863
The last part is true. My AP Euro History class was crazy compared to my college history courses lol




This is the exact kind of presumption I'm talking about. She has a different teacher for all of her subjects.

Also maybe where you live they have extra free time in class but my kids don't. I didn't either at the private school I was sent to and neither did my wife at the private school she went to too.

Hell at orientation for the magnet school they literally said expect long nights of hw, mental breakdowns, crying, lying, and everything in between due to the course load.

What do I know? I'm just the involved parent of the actual child in question at the actual school in question.

So they warn you of what you're getting your child into and yet you're complaining??? That's how that place is run and I'm sure it's more than effective for them. That's like saying you'll get hurt sparring without pads and proceeding to do it anyways and then complaining about it once you get hurt. My kids get a lot of work and whip through it. Mine are taught to earn the time to have fun and that when all important tasks are completed they can do whatever they want basically. It works like a charm in my household. They learn the importance of responsibility and how to prioritize what's important over mindless nonsense. Then they have their fun and have a sense of accomplishment to go along with it. You can't complain about your kids homework when you literally put them into an environment where 5 hrs + of homework is expected daily
 

Boiled Goose

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,999
Less education? No thanks. Things like math and writing require practice and repetition you can't really execute during school hours.
 

Calamari41

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,172
This is literally how you learn math.

I can always tell when my students (this is at the college level) didn't get into a good homework mindset in high school. "How can I get faster with these trig concepts? It takes me way longer to get the answer. I know how to do it, but it takes me awhile." Stuff like that.

Homework! There are 168 hours in a week, and they're in my class for 3 of them. Literally like 2% of their week. That simply isn't enough. It's like trying to learn an instrument, or a foreign language by only using it for 3 hours a week (an hour at a time too).

What's killing certain places in education is the idea that school is like work. A thing you clock into, do the barest requirements, and clock out. When that mindset takes hold, good fucking luck. I imagine the same is true for reading (how are you gonna have them read books without homework?), and really, most subjects. Getting educated and wanting to learn isn't a dumb check mark that you put down to get the govt off your back. It's how you get good citizens.

I'd be a complete failure as an educator if I let a class off the hook after "everyone gets it" one time in front of me (assuming they're even telling the truth). If they really "got it," then their homework should be a free grade buffer. It often isn't. And thinking "well, if you cancel it because they're bad at it, won't their grade go up?" isn't how it works either. They just find out they didn't really "get it" when they fail a full exam instead of a single HW assignment.

I get what you're saying, but that just wasn't really what I experienced. My friends and I used to cheat on our math homework by splitting it up (mindlessly doing like two or three problems each) and sharing the answers before class, and we never had a problem acing every test. Even in college, my math professors didn't give grades for homework, so I just did a few problems until I was comfortable that I understood it. Didn't have any problems with the tests at the college level, either. It was way easier in college actually because the professors are so much better, they made it very easy to learn. Anecdotal, sure, but I was asked about my specific case by the other poster so I answered with it.

And my argument wasn't that zero students need to do math work all night at home in order to learn it. I don't doubt that a lot of kids need hundreds of hours of rote practice with math. But not everyone does, and it's annoying when you're forced to do it even when you don't need it. The other poster asked if anybody felt that they didn't benefit from homework, and I answered with my experience. I was assigned hours worth of math homework constantly, and I didn't benefit from it. And I had entire classes full of fellow students who didn't, either.

Edit: I'm not trying to brag or anything, I just paid deep attention in class and asked questions when I didn't understand something. We worked on problems together as a class, and I made sure I got it before leaving. I'm not trying to say that I like saw a formula written on the board and mastered calculus just by looking at it or something. Maybe some of these kids who are failing tests after hours of homework are in too advanced of a class for them?
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
fanboi

fanboi

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,702
Sweden
Less education? No thanks. Things like math and writing require practice and repetition you can't really execute during school hours.

Why not? It is all about planning. And I agree you need to practice, but let say you don't have a good home to actually practice this in a good way, hence why I think school should provide this.
 

Lakeside

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,319
This topic irritates me to no end. I have 13 year old twins and it pisses me off so much when they bring home assignments "due tomorrow!" and the kids or family have another commitment. Sometimes I'm scooping them up right after school and not returning home until time for dinner/shower/bed.
 

Yesterday

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,285
I liked homework, I was that kid that reminded the teacher that they didn't assign the reading
 

Golden

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Dec 9, 2018
928
As a parent of two kids (10 and 12) I say this, homework should be removed fully.

Reasoning?
  • School work should be done in school, leaving more time for hobbies and other activites
  • Kids don't have the same possibilities at home, where either parents might be non-caring or just can't help, leaving the affected kid at a disadvantage
  • Building a culture where it is expected to take work with you later in life (I have NO basis for this :P)
School should provide neccessary education without the need to have homework, this can be either be within the school hours, or add a couple of hours per week (which goes against my first bullet).

Above is not including higher education as university.

Shall we get the pitchforks?
As a teacher (and a parent) I agree. The most important hw should be revising, and the occasional essay.

If we don't set homework, we regularly get complaints from parents! If they want their kids to do extra learning at home, then the parents should take an active role in this rather then complaining!
 

Boiled Goose

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,999
Why not? It is all about planning. And I agree you need to practice, but let say you don't have a good home to actually practice this in a good way, hence why I think school should provide this.

Yes. Schools would ideally provide tutoring support options to ensure children get the education they need.

But that means more schooling, not less. For kids that can do this on their own time, I don't think it's necessary to reduce their time at home.
 

THErest

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,181
As a high school math teacher:

As a HS teacher (NYC), I disagree. We only get 45 minutes with students each period. The educational process needs students to refresh themselves at home or even do readings at home so we can discuss in class.
Also it's not only about content but teaching people to be responsible adults where you have deadlines. Funny you say this doesn't change homework in college. So do you want students to just adjust to having homework in college without the gradual buildup to setting time aside from their daily lives to do tasks. There's a huge reason why some schools see a large college dropout rate, among many reasons is the difference in workload and independent time management. It's about self-efficacy and being able to say in society to your friends that maybe I can't go hang out I have some things to get done for school. Priorities and time management are key.
Education is about gradual release but if you hold their hand the whole time people won't learn on their own and be independent.
This!

I'll go ahead and join him in reporting this post. He is absolutely right.

While I agree with the notion that homework shouldn't be piled on just for the sake of giving kids copious amounts of busy work, it is often an invaluable way to practice the skills that are introduced in the classroom.

Teaching is not telling. It takes guided, then group, then independent practice. A teacher's day is often broken into prescribed blocks of time which are themselves abbreviated by testing, behavior issues, and other things.

Again, there is NO TEACHING METHOD THAT OUTDOES PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT. And where are parents? At home.
This!

This is literally how you learn math.

I can always tell when my students (this is at the college level) didn't get into a good homework mindset in high school. "How can I get faster with these trig concepts? It takes me way longer to get the answer. I know how to do it, but it takes me awhile." Stuff like that.

Homework! There are 168 hours in a week, and they're in my class for 3 of them. Literally like 2% of their week. That simply isn't enough. It's like trying to learn an instrument, or a foreign language by only using it for 3 hours a week (an hour at a time too).

What's killing certain places in education is the idea that school is like work. A thing you clock into, do the barest requirements, and clock out. When that mindset takes hold, good fucking luck. I imagine the same is true for reading (how are you gonna have them read books without homework?), and really, most subjects. Getting educated and wanting to learn isn't a dumb check mark that you put down to get the govt off your back. It's how you get good citizens.

I'd be a complete failure as an educator if I let a class off the hook after "everyone gets it" one time in front of me (assuming they're even telling the truth). If they really "got it," then their homework should be a free grade buffer. It often isn't. And thinking "well, if you cancel it because they're bad at it, won't their grade go up?" isn't how it works either. They just find out they didn't really "get it" when they fail a full exam instead of a single HW assignment.

And this! So much this! These kids think they are going to work and getting paid in grades. They see every interaction as a transaction.

"Can I get extra credit points for that?" You are here to learn. Grades are an indicator of your mastery of the subject, not a payment. So no, I will not award points because you erased the board. I will never "award" points.

"I don't get points for trying the test?" No. You have to show me that you know what you're doing, at least a little bit. You will not achieve a passing grade simply by scribbling down some nonsense.

"I get what we're doing today! If only I didn't have homework, I could pass the class!"

If you understand today, but not tomorrow, then you did not do your part. I have taken you as far as I can here, our time is up. You must take steps to ensure that you remember what we've done here today, because even though I can and will give you reminders and reviews in class, we cannot spend every day on the same topic. Our time together is limited.

I am of the firm belief that taking six days to solve six equations (that you claim to totally understand) should not be an issue for you. Yet you do not do your homework. You do not practice. You do not study. You do not remember. You do not pass the test.

You let the zeros pile up in the gradebook until the last week of the quarter, then you come to me desperate for extra credit. No, I want the original credit. I'll take it. I won't even penalize you. You'll scrape by on late homework and test retakes and then you'll forget all of this next quarter when you pull the same shit. I suppose failing for months but being allowed to fix it at the end is not excruciating enough for you to learn that, maybe, you should just do your damned work on time for once.



You do learn something, though. Maybe not consciously, but you can sense it. You think you benefit from it, but that's only true in your twisted perspective in which school is work and grades are pay.

You learn that there is an invisible safety net. You learn that the principal will only permit so many students to fail. Teachers are told by their administrators to fix grades. Guidance counselors straight up change grades in teachers' gradebooks. After all, graduation rates must be maintained (and boosted). Growth must be demonstrated (on paper). The budget must be secured. The budget is more important than education.

So go. Play. Eventually this bullshit will catch on in college too, and we'll all be quite fucked.
 

giallo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,325
Seoul
You should see the homework kids get in East Asia. My Taiwanese niece and nephew do homework until 11pm most nights. It's insane.
 

ThorHammerstein

Revenger
Member
Nov 19, 2017
3,523
IIRC Finland doesn't have homework and they seem to be doing quite well with it... Though I have no idea how they do it.
 

BlinkBlank

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,226
Depends on the person.
Word up. Some kids can knock that stuff out easily, other kids it is hard for them to sit still, hard for them to follow through bringing all books and materials home to completely homework, etc.

I'm not saying get rid of it, just limit. Some of the homework I have seen kids bring home is obnoxious to get done on a nightly basis if you have a busy week with other things going on.
 

nanskee

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 31, 2017
5,075
I think there should be less amount. I remember the days my math teacher used to give me pages upon pages. But I guess it's less than college, well sorta
 

grandmastashi

Member
Nov 6, 2017
143
Agree with this 100%

Back at my high school between 1994 - 1999, they used to create a homework timetable so the idea was you would never have more than two pieces issued on any one day. Within 24 hours of it being issued on the first day back after summer, teachers were totally ignoring it, rendering the effort of putting it together utterly useless.

I can remember coming home one Thursday night from my five lessons that day with five pieces of homework, three of which were due the following day, the other two on the Monday (on top of others that had been issued before). My mum (who was a teacher herself at a different school ended up ringing and saying you're burning them out with the sheer amount you're giving, there's no time for anything else).

The problem in the main were the teachers who couldn't get through everything they needed to cover in the lesson, so they'd palm off that work to home.

School is for schoolwork, home is for everything else.

Also (and this is not a joke), for the last three years I was in school, my French/German teacher would frequently put films on in the class during the day - I watched From Dusk Till Dawn about five times in school in that time.
 

Deleted member 283

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,288
I agree. I tried to be the model student in high school, taking multiple AP courses and all that because y'know from counselors, television, society in general, etc, that's what I heard universities wanted and would give me the best shot and so that's what I did.

And so I took multiple AP classes at the same time. Like AP Government, AP Composition, AP Chemistry, etc. And while individually each teacher tried not to give out too much homework even as such, no more than say 30 min-1 hour, when u have 6 different classes when you're in school that adds up to 3-6 hours each night pretty quickly. And good that's something that annoyed me so much in high school, because that refrain of teachers saying they don't give out that much was so common. Yeah, well, maybe. But you're not my only teacher, and I know you know that, but just not their problem and something that just went unsaid.

In any case, I thought I could nonetheless hack it and did my best because it's just something you had to do for the best shot at university, but I couldn't. That was all too much for me, and my grades and performance suffeeree even in stuff I enjoyed st the time like chemistry.

Especially since it's not just the homework I was worried about. Indeed, again because if university pressure, I understood how important extracurricular activities we're. And so I signed up for stuff like Quiz Bowl. And oh God, Quiz Bowl nightsm. Quiz Bowl itself was fun and I really liked it! But I also didn't actually get home until like 6:00, 6:30 PM on Quiz Bowl nights and my amount of HW was the same whether I had Quiz Bowl or not, and so Quiz Bowl nights themselves became a constant source if anxiety because I just somehow had to swuueze more into less on those nights.

And then speaking of universities, there's the applications themselves and college scholarships and all that on top of it all. And man, on that I have to say my mom was awesome because she was constantly looking for so much stuff for me, and I appreciated that so much. But at the same time, when they each wanted their own essays as part of the application process and obviously if you wanted to win with the amount of applications those things get it's not like any rush-job would cover it, with what time left over was I supposed to write all these other essays just for so much as a chance, JUST A CHANCE, of winning and the much greater probability that effort would be wasted? And so I begrudgingly ignored them because there just weren't hours in the day left for all that.

Suffice it to say that high school was a miserable experience for me, largely because of homework.

So yeah, that bring said, I agree, homework should be as close to being abolished as possible. Because I understand that each individual teacher only has a very limited time with students, but that goes two ways, and the students' free time at home is also valuable and can't be assumed to be unlimited. And indeed, because of that limited amount of time, the benefit of homework is questionable. Because if you want understand it it's probably fine. But what if you don't actually understand it,bbut just think you do? Then you're just wasting time reinforcing bad habits, but it will take until the assignment is graded and you get it back to realize that,vat which point the class has almost certainly moved on to other subjects and it's very hard to go back to that and look it over and realize what you actually did wrong so you can correct those mistakes because like all the other students you're expected to keep up with the latest material and do that now, so making the time to reach out to understand old mistakes just isn't in the cards at all, and so things can easily just snowball. And then you have the students who have limited to no parental support at all because they have bad home lives or their parents are just working 2-3 jobs and don't have time to make ends meet even if they'd likely love nothing but to have that time, and so of you have a student like that who just flat out doesn't understand the material at all, things can get bad that much faster.

That's all to say that homework is something that only even helps those most likely to succeed anyway, those students who more or less did understand the material, who have good home lives with readily accessible parental support, etc. For everyone else,it's questionable at best if not outright harmful in certain situations (as in addition to the scenarios I've outlined above, you also have people like myself, who was a straight A student who did great in school and was great at understanding material when I had proper time, but I just burned myself out trying to keep up with what I perceived to be the expectations of the universities I'd be applying to and ended up hating school as a result).

My thoughts on this are this ultimately very similar to what I feel should be worker's rights as a result. Because like most people I imagine, I've forgotten lots of what I learned in history classes over the years, just because I had no use for it even if I did find it interesting because it really is true what they say, if you don't use it, you lose it.

But anyway, the point being that one of the things I DO remember from history class for whatever reason is that one of the motor for the worker's rights movement here in the United States was "8 HOURS FOR WORK, 8 HOURS FOR REST, 8 HOURS FOR WHAT WE WILL."

And indeed, among other things, that motto was based on what was already being learned about workforce productivity at the time, that after about 40 hours of work a week productivity starts to very quickly drop off a cliff.

And well, students aren't workers obviously but they're still hunsn beings and they're still in school for about 7 hours or so each day as it is. And while that may not be much time for any individual teacher, any individual class, that's just the problem with the school model in general, that we try to pack so much into the day but spend such little time on any given thing that a lot of it is just wasted unfortunately due to focusing do much on breadth instead of depth and comprehension and understanding.

But nonetheless, regardless of how efficient or inefficient or anywhere in between, those 7 hours or so students are in class are what they are regardless. And indeed being younger and growing and all that, with large need for sleep as well especially for adolescents, well, what I'm getting at is if anything that "8 hours for work, 8 hours for rest, 8 hours for what we wil" should apply to students just as much if not more so because due to that, if not the very same, being human beings themselves, if anything their limits for truly being the most productive would be lower than the adult workforce due to all of that.

Yet, while l hear a lot about productivity to defend and if anything lower the 8 hour workday for adults and rail against stuff like forced overtime/crunch in the gaming industry for instance, it's very interesting that I almost never year the same concepts that would logically apply just as much if not more so to students, well, actually being applied to them and it's just inherently assumed that they can jack it/it's good for them or whatever and even when it comes to homework critics it's interesting that's very rarely directly part of the picture at all to me.

Be ause again, I want to make this clear, I understand that teachers themselves are under huge time constraints. But that itself is a critique of the structure if schools, how we try to squeeze so much into do little, and doesn't change what people's linirs are or how much time is already spent in schools.

And I don't know what the answer is to that, I'll be the first to admit it. But at the sane time, what I do know is that sudents already spend 7 hours or so in school as it is, and expecting them to just do more on top of that certainly isn't the answer, that's for sure, especially with other obligations and stuff once they get to the high school level anyway like extracurricular activities, college admissions essays, scholarship essays, part-time jobs, etc. I don't know what the answer is, I can admit that, but expecting students to do even more when they're already doing they're best 7 hours a day isn't it, or at least it in no way should be, IMO.
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,922
When you are young thats the age you get to work on the person you are going to be. From high school onwards I always kind of loved school and learning about new things so I didn't and still don't mind homework. I think they need to chill for kids in elementary school but otherwise I still think homework has a place. Life shouldn't be all about primary school, you want kids to be well developed individuals. I don't think back and say I wish I had more homework, but I do wish I had read more books, learned an instrument, been more serious about learning more about languages, arts, and more adventurous socially in meeting different types of people.

And on the other side of the coin is pissing your life away as a child doing nothing but playing games, watching movies and fucking around on your phone. You don't get that time back and you are not improving as a person if you spend too much time consuming entertainment.
 

Chan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,334
When you are young thats the age you get to work on the person you are going to be. From high school onwards I always kind of loved school and learning about new things so I didn't and still don't mind homework. I think they need to chill for kids in elementary school but otherwise I still think homework has a place. Life shouldn't be all about primary school, you want kids to be well developed individuals. I don't think back and say I wish I had more homework, but I do wish I had read more books, learned an instrument, been more serious about learning more about languages, arts, and more adventurous socially in meeting different types of people.

And on the other side of the coin is pissing your life away as a child doing nothing but playing games, watching movies and fucking around on your phone. You don't get that time back and you are not improving as a person if you spend too much time consuming entertainment.
Do your kids have iPhones or tracfones?