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Bundy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,931
I step into this thread for five seconds and people are fighting, yeesh.

I think if Killzone does come back it needs a hard reboot. I prefer the colorful campaign and setpieces of 3 over the grittiness of two personally.
But it needs better characters, like in Killzone 1 (-Rico tho). Imo it's better to start a new IP. Start fresh. New gen, new IP.
The "aggression" is me speaking bluntly when faced with people who would rather defend Sony's lack of marketing budget being spent (oh no, the horror!) rather than simply acknowledging that maybe a small AA game wasn't marketed well by our lord and savior, Sony.
You don't need to defend Sony on every god damn thing.
Some people already explained to you that the marketing was fair enough for such a small niche game like Concrete Genie. Concrete Genie is a small game. A small niche game. A small niche game with a boy painting cute monsters on walls. It was never supposed to be a million seller. Sony knows that. So it received a nice little marketing campaign and that's about it.
Some small niche games simply aren't big sellers. Even with a Detroit: Become Human marketing budget. Not every AA game will automatically be a "Journey" wonder, just because you threw some marketing cash on the wall. Time to accept reality and stop being angry.
 

Gerwant

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,044
I can't wait to see how shocked some people here will be when they will see how poorly Dreams will do at launch.

But it needs better characters, like in Killzone 1 (-Rico tho). Imo it's better to start a new IP. Start fresh. New gen, new IP.

Yeah, just let Killzone die. I would also want to say to let The Order die, but it actually never lived lol.
 

Saint-14

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
14,477
Something is wrong with you if you see everything as defending.

Anyways, CG has had more pages of discussion now than the entirety of the time before release, that should tell you how much people cared about it, this result isn't surprising if you've been paying attention and know a little about sales, I guess some people just now will learn that not every game will do well.
 

hubertuss03

Banned
Oct 9, 2018
1,182
There's nearly no example of digital sales "saving" a low selling physical release afaik (not counting games that just had a limited edition for physical release obviously).
I doubt we'll see it on any other market charts considering most of those stop at 20 (or less) anyway.
Yes, you maybe right. But its small game with small budget. So no need multi-million sales.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,347
Again, the game had shit marketing. Reviews came out when it launched. Why would the review thread be any different than the OT?

Then how about the preview thread which was less than a page .
Marketing is not the answer to everything and sometimes people just don't care .
Hell i know that all to well since housemarque had to stop making the type of games i really like.

EDIT even CG reviews could not help it since it was on the lower side overall.
 
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Tratorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
709
I can only help but laugh at this pathetic outlook on AA games.

You drink the Sony kool-aid way too much.

Sorry, but the fact that you're generalizing AA games as much as you do shows that you just don't know what you're talking about. No, CG doesn't have a high potential customer base. It wouldn't have sold much more with more marketing but it would have lost money instead. You practically want Sony to lose money with games like those mentioned instead of giving them the chance to make some.
Sony is really good this gen in chosing what games could make more money with more marketing and which couldn't. They got some seriously good decision makers up there when it comes to financial things, that's for sure.

But that fact makes it just even more funny when some forum users freak out and think they know things better than them.
 

Bundy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,931
Yeah, just let Killzone die. I would also want to say to let The Order die, but it actually never lived lol.
Yep. We had 6 Killzone games and they all sold okay to good. It's really time to move on.
Rico was a terrible character, way too edgelord for my taste.
Yeah. I thought he was "okay" in KZ1, because the beef between him and Hakha was kinda funny. But then he kept going on and on in KZ2, KZ3.... ugh.
 

Jawbreaker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,426
New York City
Honestly, I can't think of any marketing strategy that would have increased Concrete Genie's sales by much. It's a game with super niche appeal that doesn't have a particularly strong hook or memorable characters. It's pretty, sure, but without a memorable character, great first impression, or hook (for a recent example, think of the goose), it's destined to failure and obscurity.

There are a lot of small factors that add up, but ultimately, it's just not an appealing game, even for those who are generally into smaller, artsy games. It doesn't present well in marketing.
 

Bundy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,931
Sorry, but the fact that you're generalizing AA games as much as you do shows that you just don't know what you're talking about. No, CG doesn't have a high potential customer base. It wouldn't have sold much more with more marketing but it would have lost money instead. You practically want Sony to lose money with games like those mentioned instead of giving them the chance to make some.
Sony is really good this gen in chosing what games could make more money with more marketing and which couldn't. They got some seriously good decision makers up there when it comes to financial things, that's for sure.

But that fact makes it just even more funny when some forum users freak out and think they know things better than them.
Well said.
 

nolifebr

Banned
Sep 1, 2018
11,465
Curitiba/BR
As I said before, Sony really needs to start thinking about putting these smaller games on PS Now at launch. It would be much easier to advertise a game that costs "only $10" a month, and would also be very good for the service that would have a recent release in its catalog.

It would also be a plus if such a game brought new fixed subscribers to the service. $10 could end up turning $60 per year for Sony.
 

JediEagle

Member
Oct 17, 2018
267
Slovenia
Is it worth playing through MediEvil if I played the PSP version back in the day .... I remember being happy that it's over and I actually sold it off. For which I don't feel any regret like for some other games from my childhood.
 

Malkier

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,911
My expectation is simple.

I see 2 games coming out in October - both developed and published by Sony. Both are lower budget endeavours, so the natural expectation is that they will have small to modest marketing at best.

I see Medievil, in spite of it not having being revealed at a big event like PGW/E3 - having marketing beats that employ things like:
- expectation setting with its first proper reveal - timing it with Halloween last year to bring awareness to the game
- timed demo that gives a special item in-game
- things like the vol.1 and vol.2 trailers that keep awareness of the game, and sell gimmicks.

And I already see a game that is more effective - at the very least, making sure that you pay attention to what it's trying to sell you with Medievil, by the appeal of coinciding with timings where it could have its own space for awareness + giving some sort of reason for you to download a demo that otherwise most people would ignore to at least try the game + constant pre-release update on weekly basis to pitch the game to you.

And I don't even think Medievil marketing is all that great. But it's far better. And expecting games of relatively equal product calibre by the same publisher to get the same level of marketing isn't some sort of rocket science.

The games themselves though are very different. I'm sure Sony realized CG is not going to be a lot of people's cup of tea. I don't think a CG demo would help at all it's not a traditional game and there really isn't that much meat to bite in to give a demo. And to be completely honest if there was a CG demo before launch I probably would have cancelled my preorder.

Not a fan of Medievil and won't be buying it, no idea what these vol 1/2 videos are even after trying to Google it. Medievil is a bigger game (i think?) and a remake so they are definitely showing much more of the game itself. Medievil thematically ties in with Halloween, do you think they should have tied CG to a holiday?

Definitely shouldn't ignore they are completely different types of games and lend themselves to marketing tactics in different natural ways.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,246
But it needs better characters, like in Killzone 1 (-Rico tho). Imo it's better to start a new IP. Start fresh. New gen, new IP.

Some people already explained to you that the marketing was fair enough for such a small niche game like Concrete Genie. Concrete Genie is a small game. A small niche game. A small niche game with a boy painting cute monsters on walls. It was never supposed to be a million seller. Sony knows that. So it received a nice little marketing campaign and that's about it.
Some small niche games simply aren't big sellers. Even with a Detroit: Become Human marketing budget. Not every AA game will automatically be a "Journey" wonder, just because you threw some marketing cash on the wall. Time to accept reality and stop being angry.

Dude, don't think I'm angry just because I'm blunt with you.

And don't think constantly repeating the same justifications for why a small game must be small means anything.

But whatever. You always go to the opposite extreme, thinking that me asking for good marketing means breaking out the bank or some shit.

Sorry, but the fact that you're generalizing AA games as much as you do shows that you just don't know what you're talking about. No, CG doesn't have a high potential customer base. It wouldn't have sold much more with more marketing but it would have lost money instead. You practically want Sony to lose money with games like those mentioned instead of giving them the chance to make some.
Sony is really good this gen in chosing what games could make more money with more marketing and which couldn't. They got some seriously good decision makers up there when it comes to financial things, that's for sure.

But that fact makes it just even more funny when some forum users freak out and think they know things better than them.

And see, this is my problem with the entire attitude.

What is this nonsense: "No, CG doesn't have a high potential customer base."

You cannot state that as a fact, without any backup, proceed to prove the latter assertions as correct as if you have a logical argument. No, the entire disagreement stems from the premise that you state as a matter of fact.

Who said CG doesn't have a higher potential base than #35 on UK charts? Who? Where is the data?

Was it Sony? Is Sony a corporation incapable if making mistakes?

I asked for better marketing and y'all go crazy like I'm asking Sony to spend millions of dollars marketing the game to the point of losing money.

How about read, stop assuming my argument and present a counter to what is stated rather than some fucking absolutely crazy extreme example I haven't uttered.
 

Bundy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,931
Is it worth playing through MediEvil if I played the PSP version back in the day .... I remember being happy that it's over and I actually sold it off. For which I don't feel any regret like for some other games from my childhood.
MediEvil: Resurrection? Resurrection was terrible. We MediEvil fans won't acknowledge that it exists :P
So yeah... I don't know. MediEvil is great, but it's still an oldschool PS1 action adventure. Controls aren't the best. So if you can ignore that, it's worth getting it imo. The MediEvil world (and it's characters/creatures) have so much charm :)
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
Forget the masses .
People talk about marketing and on this board CG OT was 3 pages last time i check .
It showed that not even the hardcore gave a fuck which this board full off.

That does say it all really.

I wonder if the problem with Concrete Genie was marketing or the game itself being simply destined for obscurity.

Like the above poster said, if even an enthusiast forum couldn't muster much excitement it might just be the game twelfths to blame.
 

Bundy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,931
Dude, don't think I'm angry just because I'm blunt with you.

And don't think constantly repeating the same justifications for why a small game must be small means anything.

But whatever. You always go to the opposite extreme, thinking that me asking for good marketing means breaking out the bank or some shit.
It's not about it being a small game. It's because it's a niche game. Even a niche-looking game.
But whatever. You always go the opposite extreme, thinking that if it didn't get huge marketing dollars, it basically didn't get any marketing at all. And that's simply not true at all ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It got the marketing you expect for such a small niche game. And it wasn't bad either.
 

SilverX

Member
Jan 21, 2018
13,132
My favourite Killzone was 1 tho. Templar, Luger and Hakha were awesome (fuck Rico) ;) But seriously, if they wanna make a new FPS game, it's time for a new IP.

I can't see Sony investing in a new FPS game that isn't more of a first person action adventure or RPG than a shooter. The reaction would be "Huh?" if they were doing something entirely new in regards to a competitive FPS, that just isn't what their main audience expects or demands. It would probably cause concerns of a change of direction for Sony's first party even lol.

If they were rebooting Killzone, Resistance, or even a TPS like SOCOM though, I believe the reaction would be "I'm listening..." since it would be revisiting something familiar at an attempt to make it better.

They have the franchises, they just need to be re-imagined.

I think if Killzone does come back it needs a hard reboot. I prefer the colorful campaign and setpieces of 3 over the grittiness of two personally.

Killzone 3 was just amazing to me with the direction it took. We got to see Helghan jungles and the snowy mountains, all along with adding a lot more personality to even the more standard Killzone settings like you can see here

Killzone-3-Combat-Scene.jpg


I would kill for another Killzone like KZ3
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,246
It's not about it being a small game. It's because it's a niche game. Even a niche-looking game.
But whatever. You always go the opposite extreme, thinking that if it didn't get huge marketing dollars, it basically didn't get any marketing at all. And that's simply not true at all ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It got the marketing you expect for such a small niche game. And it wasn't bad either.

Thanks for proving that you don't actually read any of what I say.
 

Bundy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,931
I can't see Sony investing in a new FPS game that isn't more of a first person action adventure or RPG than a shooter. The reaction would be "Huh?" if they were doing something entirely new in regards to a competitive FPS, that just isn't what their main audience expects or demands. It would probably cause concerns of a change of direction for Sony's first party even lol.

If they were rebooting Killzone, Resistance, or even a TPS like SOCOM though, I believe the reaction would be "I'm listening..." since it would be revisiting something familiar at an attempt to make it better.
Nah, I don't think so. Fans expect new IPs from Sony. And they will get them. Just build a new universe (lore) around your FPS. Some cool looking, interesting characters. And then, of course, make the multiplayer fun. Well we have to wait and see. But if they are going to make a new FPS, I bet it's gonna be a new IP. I hope so at least :P
 

Bundy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,931
Thanks for proving that you don't actually read any of what I say.
Oh I did. In this thread, you said:
No, it shows the marketing was fucking trash. The marketing for the game was down right pathetic.
And I said:
You always go the opposite extreme, thinking that if it didn't get huge marketing dollars, it basically didn't get any marketing at all. And that's simply not true at all ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It got the marketing you expect for such a small niche game. And it wasn't bad either.
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
Eh I blame both. All in all tho that's pretty much why AAA outside Nintendo is so "Stale" apparently. Ppl say that but they really don't mean it at all. Even something like death which follows the sane type of AAA formulas but differently gets shit because it's different is too different

It is frustrating how people put down DS because it's slightly different.
 

Malkier

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,911
Nobody talks about dreams either. The "limited" early access is still up for sale. Fanbase don't give a fuck it is what is. On to the next AAA cinematic adventure

I think Dreams could be cool in the future after some dedicated people stick with it. Dreams right now is very much a slap in the face to arm chair devs on how time consuming it is to make things.
It's definitely has potential but the time invested to the quality of output has me on the fence if it will take off.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,246
Oh I did. In this thread, you said:

And I said:

I'm gonna help you out here.

Thinking that marketing is bad =/= thinking that it needs more money thrown at it.

I said the marketing is bad. I didn't say throw wads of cash at it.

Money is a factor in big, good marketing campaigns. But throwing money at a game isn't, by itself, good marketing. Thus, you can absolutely criticize that a game is marketed poorly, despite the amount of money being thrown behind it (big or small).

For example, I think MediEvil has good marketing. And that marketing budget isn't exactly big either.
 

Elandyll

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,875
Nobody talks about dreams either. The "limited" early access is still up for sale. Fanbase don't give a fuck it is what is. On to the next AAA cinematic adventure
I think it remains to be seen what exactly Sony's strategy (in terms of marketing) is, as I think it could go two ways:

Either Sony is using its early access to accumulate an insane amount of high quality (mostly community created) content, before capitalizing on it + word of mouth to launch a big campaign in 2020, then I think it is rather smart.

If it ends being a mere footnote on the PSBlog ala "oh btw Dreams is going full release today, enjoy", then I think they will have nearly fully squandered a ton of potential, and Dreams will die a very slow (community sustained) but painful death.

It will also depend on the kind of attention and support it gets around the PS5 release I guess, between "it's compatible. Be glad" and "full 4k version and advanced physics/ AI with its own browsable asset/levels/games in the PS5 store".

Yup nothing special here
Historically speaking, this is absolutely untrue.
Sony has been far more risk prone on financing and even creating indie/ weird titles.
MS usually shopped for titles that were visibly going to be successful, and purchased (often limited) exclusivity, until recently when they bought studios whose output we still have to see.
 
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Ascenion

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,281
Mecklenburg-Strelitz
But it needs better characters, like in Killzone 1 (-Rico tho). Imo it's better to start a new IP. Start fresh. New gen, new IP.

I am inclined to agree actually. The strength of Killzone was the characters and the fact the campaign was all of them going around together. It was pretty awful going into Killzone 2 and 3 never seeing Hakha or Luger again. Just Rico and Jan. I don't think Killzone needs to go it just needs a reboot when the horizon team can do it. Killzone 2 to Shadowfall has been a steady decline in quality.
 

Omnistalgic

self-requested temp ban
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,973
NJ

Looks good why doesn't Sony make this themselves? Seems designed for shooters though and PS5 is around the corner now.

Loudninja yeah, agreed. When I saw that duck walking around MGS style in Dreams I said to myself "this game is going to do just fine"...

I doubt it takes off like Minecraft or anything (or maybe with a PC release!) but it should be very successful if Mm nails a fun campaign.
 

Bundy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,931
I am inclined to agree actually. The strength of Killzone was the characters and the fact the campaign was all of them going around together. It was pretty awful going into Killzone 2 and 3 never seeing Hakha or Luger again. Just Rico and Jan. I don't think Killzone needs to go it just needs a reboot when the horizon team can do it. Killzone 2 to Shadowfall has been a steady decline in quality.
And I really liked the idea behind Killzone 1. Four different characters with different abilities. It was interesting. And then KZ2 happened and it was just the ordinary soldier dude shooting things. In the end, we had 6 Killzone games. The IP name has some "baggage". I really think it's time for a new IP if another 1st party FPS is necessary.
 

Herey

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Jan 10, 2019
3,416
Bit off-topic but it's pretty shit that the only time big publications actually talk about Dreams is when someone recreates something rather than the ton of cool original creations that get posted in here all the time.
 

Jawbreaker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,426
New York City
I think more devs should focus on creating a strong playable character in terms of at least visual design, and they should offer plenty of customization options. When you think about it, the main character is what you control and see for the entirety of the game. People want to control something that appeals or is to their liking. They want to self-insert in whatever way possible. If you're not a predefined, incredibly well-written character like a Nathan Drake or Ellie, having character customization is a great idea.

To use Dreams as an example, it's currently lacking that hook. LittleBigPlanet had the brilliant, charming Sack Boy/Girl that allowed you to customize it to your heart's content, and it's a big reason for its appeal and success.
 

BadWolf

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,148
Bit off-topic but it's pretty shit that the only time big publications actually talk about Dreams is when someone recreates something rather than the ton of cool original creations that get posted in here all the time.

That applies in general.

The same thing happens when artists post original artwork compared to fanart. It's usually way easier to get people's attention with fanart.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,347
I think it remains to be seen what exactly Sony's strategy (in terms of marketing) is, as I think it could go two ways:

Either Sony us using its early access to accumulate an insane amount of high quality (mostly community created) content, before capitalizing on it+ wors of mouth to launch a big campaign in 2020, then I think it is rather smart.

If it ends being a mere footnote on the PSBlog ala "oh btw Dreams is going full release today, enjoy", then I think they will have nearly fully squandered a yon of potential, and Dreams will die a very slow (community sustained) but painful death.

It will also depend on the kind of attention and support it gets around the PS5 release I guess, between "it's compatible. Be glad" and "full 4k version and advanced physics/ AI with its own browsable asset/levels/games in the PS5 store".

I really wonder what they plan is with PS5 so close .
If they plan to sell it or maybe they will make a F2P version for PS5 later on .
 

Omnistalgic

self-requested temp ban
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,973
NJ
I think more devs should focus on creating a strong playable character in terms of at least visual design, and they should offer plenty of customization options. When you think about it, the main character is what you control and see for the entirety of the game. People want to control something that appeals or is to their liking. They want to self-insert in whatever way possible. If you're not a predefined, incredibly well-written character like a Nathan Drake or Ellie, having character customization is a great idea.

To use Dreams as an example, it's currently lacking that hook. LittleBigPlanet had the brilliant, charming Sack Boy/Girl that allowed you to customize it to your heart's content, and it's a big reason for its appeal and success.
I do agree with this, Dreams needs a better avatar. But lets see what the campaign brings. I still think they should just make it sackboy/sack girl and call it Little Big Dreams. I really love that IP and hope it doesn't lie dormant.
 

Herey

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Jan 10, 2019
3,416
That applies in general.

The same thing happens when artists post original artwork compared to fanart. It's usually way easier to get people's attention with fanart.
It makes sense that people are drawn to things they've already got an emotional connection to, like the PT demo or whatever. Just a bit annoying.
The kaiju game blew up at least
They should make that the Dreams mascot.
 
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