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JCG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,544
Regardless of any other issues with Sterling's video content, which isn't the subject of this thread as per the staff post, it seems quite clear the decline suddenly accelerated right after coming out and expressing themselves in an open manner. Which is a sign of how much intolerance and discrimination stil remains in the world. That's more than a little depressing.
 

DJKippling

Member
Nov 1, 2017
923
Yes let's ignore all the obvious issues the gaming community has because everywhere has issues

wow nice logic jumping there, I'm not saying ignore it, in fact i'm saying the opposite. I'm saying stop making it out like the gaming community is the only one with the problem, It should be about stamping it out all over not just going the gaming community is pure scum.
 

Croc Man

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,546
Because those channels are having mild to moderate positive growth vs James Stephanie's which is seeing negative growth. It also doesn't help that the algorithm doesn't promote LGBTQ+ content because it often gets flagged as adult or gets demonetized, so this actively works against LGBTQ+ creators.

The algorithm's machine learning component is heavily biased toward the interests of cis, hetero, white users, so that probably doesn't help.

You can Google articles about LGBTQ+ content and YT's algorithm actively working against their content to get a better idea of how YT is trash to LGBTQ+ creators.
How would that work in this case? Other than wearing a wig not much has changed and they did that before to a degree anyway, not like it's a LGBT+ focused channel. Is it literally people reporting it as "adult" for no real reason?

I think their channel is demonitised anyway so that wouldn't make a difference.
 

Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
Because those channels are having mild to moderate positive growth vs James Stephanie's which is seeing negative growth. It also doesn't help that the algorithm doesn't promote LGBTQ+ content because it often gets flagged as adult or gets demonetized, so this actively works against LGBTQ+ creators.

The algorithm's machine learning component is heavily biased toward the interests of cis, hetero, white users, so that probably doesn't help.

You can Google articles about LGBTQ+ content and YT's algorithm actively working against their content to get a better idea of how YT is trash to LGBTQ+ creators.
I heard about that years ago, i kinda thought that it improved, seems i was to optimistic.

Kindad weird how bad google is with Machine learning, with how much they invest in research...
 

Ashlette

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,254
I really hate this pinpointing on the gaming community as the problem. This is a problem in every part of life in general, doesn't matter what sector you look at you'll get the same results. Until you can solve the problem in general the gaming community will be the same as all the others. it sucks big time but don't say its the gaming community specifically, its nearly every community sadly and that's what needs to change.

Yeah transphobia is everywhere. But the gaming community has a sector full of people who actively harass LGBTQIA+ members and even work together to find their target's personal information. See the people who target streams with the LGBTQIA+ tag on Twitch and a whole site dedicated to doxxing people.
 

Dolce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,256
The reality is that their focus, through history, on general "outrage" is something that right wing gamers love. You see a lot of British YouTubers, but also YouTubers in general, who constantly focus on these kinds of things. Their transition towards social issues, or moreso, more focus on them, goes against why a lot of those types originally subscribed. Gamers, and far right gamers, love to be outraged and dogpile a publisher, or a game, or an idea. Of course now these people are going to be mad for stupid reasons. Because Jim is being more of themself, now the "outrage" is going to be aimed more at Jim.

Outrage culture, and I don't mean justified outrage over racism, sexism, etc, but this constant rallying of gamers against perceived sleights, is always dangerous because of what it brings about. Anytime I see a game with a suspiciously lower score on Steam, in the past, I just knew gamers were angry about something dumb.
 

PaperSparrow

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,024
wow nice logic jumping there, I'm not saying ignore it, in fact i'm saying the opposite. I'm saying stop making it out like the gaming community is the only one with the problem, It should be about stamping it out all over not just going the gaming community is pure scum.
This has been the go-to argument for anything critical of gaming since I was a wee child. What is the end goal of what you are trying to get across here? Because the end goal doesn't improve anything for anyone anywhere, I'll tell you that much. Anita Sarkeesian accomplished more change with calling out sexism in games than the gamers telling her "it's not just us, tho!"

The gaming community has many issues, we are on a gaming forum, we can talk about it without paralyzing the discussion with "look over there".
 

Jombie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,392
I think there will always be a large section of the community that will be mired in bigotry and sexism. These people live incredibly insular lives; the social landscape has changed and they feel threatened by it. So they lash out the only way they see fit - bitching in game comments sections and falling further down the anti-woke rabbit hole.

I'm sure James expected this, but it still has to be depressing.
 

DJKippling

Member
Nov 1, 2017
923
This has been the go-to argument for anything critical of gaming since I was a wee child. What is the end goal of what you are trying to get across here? Because the end goal doesn't improve anything for anyone anywhere, I'll tell you that much. Anita Sarkeesian accomplished more change with calling out sexism in games than the gamers telling her "it's not just us, tho!"

The gaming community has many issues, we are on a gaming forum, we can talk about it without paralyzing the discussion with "look over there".

My point is its not the community its individual people, being a gamer or whatever you want to call it does not mean i'm transphobic etc but when you paint the whole community like that people start to associate gamers with that. I think it does more damage then good saying its a whole community then challenging individuals who are actually the problem. its not going "look over there" its about focussing on the real issue and not generically blaming entire communities.
 

Marmoka

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,068
For me it's quite clear that people are leaving because they are all transphobic. nothing has changed in Jim Stephanie's videos or their behavior, everything is the same.

Unfortunately the transphobic discourse and TERFs are very present in leftist movements, and it's disgusting. Many people consider themselves very progressive, very open minded,... But in reality they are not.

I hope Jim Stephanie can still keep their channel alive, doing what they like the way they like.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,458
I really hate this pinpointing on the gaming community as the problem. This is a problem in every part of life in general, doesn't matter what sector you look at you'll get the same results. Until you can solve the problem in general the gaming community will be the same as all the others. it sucks big time but don't say its the gaming community specifically, its nearly every community sadly and that's what needs to change.
There is an issue with the general gaming community and racism, misogyny, transphobia and other bigotry though. It is distinct from a lot of other communities across hobbies and is a lot more prevalent to come across. The discussion around that is frequently held in tandem with discussions around broader issues. Both are important.
 

PaperSparrow

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,024
My point is its not the community its individual people, being a gamer or whatever you want to call it does not mean i'm transphobic etc but when you paint the whole community like that people start to associate gamers with that. I think it does more damage then good saying its a whole community then challenging individuals who are actually the problem. its not going "look over there" its about focussing on the real issue and not blaming entire communities.
The gaming community is a cesspool as a whole. We are on a gaming forum and I'm sure anyone criticizing the community is aware that not every individual is bigoted. But keep in mind for a lot of people here, this is the first online gaming space where we aren't afraid of saying who we are. That's how bad the gaming community is and the only one I've had to worry about that for. I can't speak for trans people and their experience in other areas, but there is a very gamer branded type of transphobia, that can be adressed at the gaming community's feet and, yes, that includes you and me, even if we aren't the source of the problem.
 
Dec 27, 2019
6,110
Seattle
Being subscribed to Jim, I used to get recommended YongYea vids and shit like that, with "Jim Sterling viewers also watched this" as a subheader. I thought that was odd: how can people regularly watch a leftist channel and also a conservative shitlord? I still don't understand.
Think there's a tendency for some folks here to gloss over the years Sterling spent dressed in Nazi regalia for their videos, satirizing the popular "Angry X" rightwing youtubers of the day. And to ignore some of the rightwing fans they almost certainly picked up during that time.

Sarcasm, irony, and satire don't always read for people, especially rightwing people. The Colbert Report for example, rather famously had a large conservative audience despite Colbert's actual politics.

It's not a huge surprise that Sterling would have some rightwing subscribers, and that those subscribers would start bailing as they transitioned.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,269
Gentrified Brooklyn
My point is its not the community its individual people, being a gamer or whatever you want to call it does not mean i'm transphobic etc but when you paint the whole community like that people start to associate gamers with that. I think it does more damage then good saying its a whole community then challenging individuals who are actually the problem. its not going "look over there" its about focussing on the real issue and not generically blaming entire communities.

I would say that the gaming community has a particular issue considering

1)How wide reaching the hobby is, particularly by age and how it can be a tool to push someone towards these views

2)The abysmal way it self polices those behaviors, It's gotten better on this front, but it's kind of fascinating to see various defense forces pile out of the woodwork. At least in other in groups there's often a power dynamic and a benefit to defending those behaviors (an well paid/protected underling defending his boss). Here people cover up and defend the behavior for no reason then…we are all in the same hobby?
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
The reality is that their focus, through history, on general "outrage" is something that right wing gamers love. You see a lot of British YouTubers, but also YouTubers in general, who constantly focus on these kinds of things. Their transition towards social issues, or moreso, more focus on them, goes against why a lot of those types originally subscribed. Gamers, and far right gamers, love to be outraged and dogpile a publisher, or a game, or an idea. Of course now these people are going to be mad for stupid reasons. Because Jim is being more of themself, now the "outrage" is going to be aimed more at Jim.

Outrage culture, and I don't mean justified outrage over racism, sexism, etc, but this constant rallying of gamers against perceived sleights, is always dangerous because of what it brings about. Anytime I see a game with a suspiciously lower score on Steam, in the past, I just knew gamers were angry about something dumb.
I think there is some truth to this. There is a genre of gamer outrage videos that really appeals to reactionaries (see for example Angry Joe and The Quartering). Obviously Jim has always been smarter than the rest, but that audience did cary over somewhat, it seems.
 

DJKippling

Member
Nov 1, 2017
923
I would say that the gaming community has a particular issue considering

1)How wide reaching the hobby is, particularly by age and how it can be a tool to push someone towards these views

2)The abysmal way it self polices those behaviors, It's gotten better on this front, but it's kind of fascinating to see various defense forces pile out of the woodwork. At least in other in groups there's often a power dynamic and a benefit to defending those behaviors (an well paid/protected underling defending his boss). Here people cover up and defend the behavior for no reason then…we are all in the same hobby?

Who could possibly defend transphobia?

The hobby itself is also not the problem.
 
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Surakian

Shinra Employee
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
10,927
How would that work in this case? Other than wearing a wig not much has changed and they did that before to a degree anyway, not like it's a LGBT+ focused channel. Is it literally people reporting it as "adult" for no real reason?

I think their channel is demonitised anyway so that wouldn't make a difference.
It's the combination of followers leaving, machine learning based on the change from being more traditionally male-presenting look to a more female-presenting look, and bad actors probably flagging the channel regardless of its actual content.

But my comment about flagging content was adult and demonetizing in regards to how the algorithm has learned to perceive content put out by LGBTQ+ creators. If some are getting flagged and getting demonetized, then other LGBTQ+ creators who may or may not be monetized or do not experience the same issues are still also negatively affected because the algorithm has learned to make the association between LGBTQ+ content creators and these sorts of negative actions against them.
 

Mr. Shakedown

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,112
Cincinnati, OH
Male, Female, Non-binary....doesn't matter to me since the strong anti-capitalist messaging stays the same. This sucks, but I'm glad that JSS can be themselves now at least.
 
Nov 17, 2020
145
The drop seems normal. They had 1 mil subscribers and lost 10%. It's that 10% that doesn't agree with the gender preference and Steph wig instead of James wig probably, so they unsubscribed.

But I think some of them will reconsider and will come back
 

Fliesen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,259
there's certainly a high share of unsubscribers who did so for transphobic reasons, but I wouldn't exactly disagree with the sentiment that their content has become less … uhm … punchy(?) as of late and I also cannot deny that some of the intro bits (like those weird old commercial bits) are a brand of umor that really doesn't do it for me.

and yes, the explanation that they're repeating themselves over and over again is due to the fact that the gaming industry keeps being shitty. Guess we've grown a bit numb to that fact though, sadly.

Also, I have no doubts that the YouTube algorithm considers Sterling a persona non grata, so there's no stream of new subscribers that might compensate for the organic and inorganic loss of subscribers…

still subscribed because each video is well worth a watch and part of my Monday morning routine
 

ExoExplorer

Member
Jan 3, 2019
1,249
New York City
It's that 10% that doesn't agree with the gender preference
So transphobic people. Let's not sugarcoat this.

Edit: I see you're not an native speaker, so I can understand the strange phrasing. Just saying gender preference makes it seem as though James had a choice here. That's not really true. James was always NB it was only recently they decided to present that part of themself publicly.
 
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ElectricBlanketFire

What year is this?
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,913
This isn't complicated. You don't lose 10% of your audience that quickly because they suddenly got sick of the content at the same time.

It's transphobia.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
116,178
This isn't complicated. You don't lose 10% of your audience that quickly because they suddenly got sick of the content at the same time.

It's transphobia.

Basically. A 10% drop all at once is too sharp to blame on content exhaustion. Content exhaustion subscriber decay is slow and gradual, not WOMP all at once like this. It's very clear that transphobia is factoring into this pretty fuckin' heavily.
 

Ocean

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,694
I had no idea about any of this. It's been a *long time* since I've watched a Jimquisition video, but they still show up on my YT feed.

I guess wearing a wig is so on-brand for Jim that it never would've caught my eye on a preview thumbnail as "oh, something's changed".

I'll definitely go check out some of the channel's recent content. Anyone who would unsub over something like this is beyond trash.
 
Nov 17, 2020
145
So transphobic people. Let's not sugarcoat this.

Yup
Fair enough, I will edit my post as well. Apologies its hard to tell at times with how these topic go sometimes.


Thanks,
So transphobic people. Let's not sugarcoat this.

Edit: I see you're not an native speaker, so I can understand the strange phrasing. Just saying gender preference makes it seem as though James had a choice here. That's not really true. James was always NB it was only recently they decided to present that part of themself publicly.


I understand! Thanks for the clarification!
 

nintendoman58

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,116
We're saying that the hobby does have a distinct issue with various forms of bigotry.

A better way to word this would be that it's less the hobby itself and more the association of said hobby as the sole forefront of one's identity that's the core influx of the problem. I abandoned the mantra of "gamer" long, long ago. Long before Gamergate came to the forefront of online gaming discourse in 2014. There was always a general sense of negativity associated with that title, even before I knew of all the bigotry.
 

Haikira

Member
Dec 22, 2017
1,297
Northern Ireland
Seems like it's pretty clear why the subscribers dropped off at that very precise moment, and to put it bluntly, Sterling is better off without those fuckers on their channel.

Thank god for Sterling!
 

anariel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
961
Not sure how anyone can look at that graph and say it's anything other than transphobia, honestly.

It's a huge problem in general, but especially so in the gaming community. Not exactly a bastion of tolerance and understanding, by and large.
 

MindofKB

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,080
Bay Area
A 10% drop because of transphobia is sad, but not surprising.

I wouldn't be shocked if Jim didn't see this coming. As time goes on, their audience numbers will probably bounce back from the dip.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,458
A better way to word this would be that it's less the hobby itself and more the association of said hobby as the sole forefront of one's identity that's the core influx of the problem. I abandoned the mantra of "gamer" long, long ago. Long before Gamergate came to the forefront of online gaming discourse in 2014. There was always a general sense of negativity associated with that title, even before I knew of all the bigotry.
Sure, but colloquially speaking I don't really see the affront in saying that the gaming community has an issue with various forms of bigotry. There was a longer response prior to that one but we're talking about someone repeatedly trying to shine the spotlight away from the community's issues so I was being brief more for my own benefit than concern for reiterating the nuance again you know.
 

Griffith

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,585
1) Youtube's algorithm stopped recommending JSS's videos to new watchers. This means that they can no longer cancel out unsubscribers.

This had, unfortunately, been going on before Jim altered their gender expression. There are plenty of videos before they made the announcement where they commented on it and asked for viewer engagement because, without it, their videos were hardly getting any exposure at all or even reaching people's subscription lists (including my own).

Now, it certainly doesn't help that Youtube did, and continues to, do that but at that point Jim's subscriber numbers were still rising, so that's not the reason for the subscriber count loss, at least not the main one.

2) Youtube's algorithm demotes LGBTQIA+ content in general. Which makes its "let's celebrate pride month!!" nonsense even more hollow than usual.
3) Transphobes being transphobes.

In my experience, and from anecdotes I've seen or heard from LGBTQIA+ creators, this seems to be most likely case, at least as far as Youtube is involved, the rest is just viewer bigotry at work.
 

Woodbeam

Member
May 6, 2019
691
Wasn't it just about a year ago when the constant complaints here about each Jimquisition getting its own thread (despite those threads generally getting little engagement) finally got moderation to force the creation of an OT... which lost steam, bringing things back to how they were before because a single OT to bury all of JSS' content in was clearly a terrible idea from the start? That really wasn't the best.

The complaints about JSS being negative always strike me as funny. Not only have they addressed this time and time again in episodes of the Jimquisition itself, pointing to other stuff they do that's broadly speaking more positive in tone (Jimquisition is far from the only thing they do, but it's their most prominent, which understandably helps create this negative image), the "negativity" has been, from the very start, in service of positive movement in the industry and its surrounding culture. JSS has been doing this for a really long time at this point, and it couldn't be clearer that their willingness to continue to call out abusive behavior despite the industry's general resistance to change and resistance from the consumer side, even from JSS' own audience, speaks to an abiding faith that things can be better, and in particular, faith in the people that make games and game culture special. Their very personal, idiosyncratic style has always shown a sense of joy that elevates them far beyond the shitty "angry gamer" archetype, and their open expression of their identity has elevated that joy even further. Being this staunch in one's belief and self expression doesn't come from a place of hate, it's exactly the opposite.

...and I was never even subscribed to their channel, until the video this thread is about! I'm glad their Patreon is still solid, and I hope they'll be able to continue doing what they do for as long as they want to.
 

Vampirolol

Member
Dec 13, 2017
5,839
That was very depressing to watch yet it's so good to see them feeling more alive than ever. I used to dislike Jim Stephanie's content for the most part but after watching the latest videos I decided to subscribe, such a quality improvement (and also FUCK transphobes!).
 

Ukumio

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,415
Australia
I tend to stay away from Jim's videos because I've disagreed heavily with some videos they made in the past. Despite that, it sucks to see a creator discriminated against not because of their content but because of who they are. People are the worst.
 

steejee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,687
The sad reality of society in all forms, presented in subscription numbers.

On the pure bookkeeping side, and because I can't watch the video atm, did they breakdown Youtube subscribers vs Patreon numbers? Like I don't even use a Youtube account, but Sterling is on my patreon list.
 
Aug 10, 2019
2,053
I would like to point out that the loss of only 100,000 subscribers because of their transition is a great departure from what would have happened had they done this 10 years ago. Sterling only lost 10 percent of their subscriber base, while not perfect, this is a win in my book.

People have become exponentially more accepting of the Trans community than in the past.
 

Soph

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,503
I subbed after the vid about under 900k, I bet a lot of others did as well. Means the actual subscribers they lost is even higher than what we can see in the percentages.
 

Nida

Member
Aug 31, 2019
11,261
Everett, Washington
This really sucks. I haven't avidly watched their content in a long time, but anyone who was surprised he was LGBTQ+ wasn't paying attention.

Edit: Fucking misgendered like an idiot.
 

Ishmael

Member
Oct 27, 2017
676
Seeing posts that somehow missed the large staff posting in this thread is like watching trucks trying to squeeze under the 11 foot 8' bridge.
 

SĂ­riocaz

Member
Oct 19, 2019
345
If people are unsubscribing because of the change, well, that's unfortunate. I was a regular viewer maybe until last year, (or two?), and, I'll be frank, I'm not sure why I I stopped watching. The show hadn't changed much, I guess I just grew out of it for whatever reason. I'll give them another shot to see what's up.
 

That1GoodHunter

My ass legally belongs to Ted Price
Member
Oct 17, 2019
10,872
The hell is wrong with people casually dismissing this?

Computer Science Degree (in 6 months 🤞) here, "At least they are clearing the bigots from their channel" aint how it works with algorithms. That sharp of a downturn in your metrics shreads your placement on the algorithm. It's a steep upward climb to recover in the placements, likely the reason why their content is being hidden now more than ever.

I feel awful for them
 
Nov 4, 2017
7,391
The hobby itself is also not the problem.
Nobody is saying your console is beaming transphobia into your head (I think?). But if our trans friends are telling us that there's a problem, I think it's better for us to listen and see what we can do to help, rather than try to justify or dismiss the issue as not being a gaming issue.

Gaming being as transphobic as the rest of society just isn't good enough for me. I don't want my hobby and community surrounding it to just accept a certain level of exclusion and bigotry. Gaming was the one area where I felt empowered and agentic during some very dark times in my childhood and teen years. Through games I met some of the best friends I have ever had, who were a significant part of my support network over the years. I'm not OK with people feeling excluded or mistreated by something that has brought me a lot of comfort and joy.