Forkball

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,948
Rinoa as Ultimecia makes sense with enough corroborating evidence to back it up.

Squall is dead is F-tier theory crafting along with "Ash is in a coma".

Though to be real Kitase and crew weren't really thinking about it that deep and were making it up as they went along. I remember someone asking him if the Knights of the Round were the Cetra that originally imprisoned Jenova and he essentially said nerds think about this stuff too deeply.
 

The Unsent

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Oct 25, 2017
19,621
And that's fine, it's not wrong to come away thinking that just from playing FFVIII, but it's not what it's trying to say and not how the mechanics of its universe works. It's an interpretation with no basis beyond your own feelings.

Like I remember years ago talking with a NieR fan, either here or on GAf and probably the latter, and it's impossible to actually say this without spoiling the entire game but to give it a go they were very insistent the characters had Certain Things that the story was actually pretty adamant they did not and it didn't matter that the story was clear on this, that the Certain Things belonged to other people, and the people with that Certain Thing weren't who this particular fan thought they were, but there was no point where they'd accept this. It doesn't matter what the game said, they were right, because that's how they felt the game was trying to say even though it demonstrably was not.



She's compressing time so that people don't kill her like they already have and will. It's a desperate gamble to avert her destiny that ends up fulfilling it.
I think that the ending is meant to be, with all the surreal imagery, the images breaking into glass, is meant to encourage that, to engage their imaginations with what's going on, and to inspire some passion within the fans. And ideally I think it should open up the discussion. I don't know why anyone might want to put a foot down there.
 

Weiss

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I think that the ending is meant to be, with all the surreal imagery, is meant to encourage that, to engage their imaginations with what's going on, and to inspire some passion within the fans. And ideally I think it should open up the discussion. I don't know why anyone might want to put a foot down there.

The ending's surreal because it's supposed to be a visual representation of Squall losing his memories, because that's another part of how Time Compression works. It's not inexplicable, it's actually quite textual; Ultimecia explains it as doing that much in the Japanese version and this text was altered for the English release.

Again, you're arguing for things we know aren't true. There's an explanation here for everything, which is not to say you're at all required to enjoy it or that you have to think your own ideas wouldn't be better.
 

Raonak

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,170
She's compressing time so that people don't kill her like they already have and will. It's a desperate gamble to avert her destiny that ends up fulfilling it.
That's not a reason to compress time though.

Why would she compress time when the reason she died was because she compressed time in the first place?

I also don't buy the idea that FF8 didn't end on a happy ending. I think it totally does. Squall and Rinoa have a wonderful life. But eventually squall dies and well... Sorceress have a tendency to go a bit mad. She uses her magic to keep herself alive until she can learn to send her consciousness back in time.

It's a theory that actually makes the FF8 story better than it is in it's original form.
 

Weiss

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That's not a reason to compress time though.

Why would she compress time when the reason she died was because she compressed time in the first place?

I also don't buy the idea that FF8 didn't end on a happy ending. I think it totally does. Squall and Rinoa have a wonderful life. But eventually squall dies and well... Sorceress have a tendency to go a bit mad. She uses her magic to keep herself alive until she can learn to send her consciousness back in time.

Yes it is. It is the reason to compress time because as far as Ultimecia is aware it's the only way to avoid her destined killing at the hands of the Legendary SeeD, only in a bit of irony it turns out that Time Compression was always going to happen in the first place. FFVIII runs on a fixed timeline where change is impossible (Ellone actively tries to do this using her powers sending Squall and co. into the minds of Laguna's group) and everything already has happened and will happen.

Anyway another part of Rinoamecia is that it assumes Sorceresses are immortal, which of course we would assume that when they're magical witch people and Adel herself is kept in cryo-sleep instead of just popping a bullet in her head, and then instead of doing that to Rinoa when she awakens they also put her into cryo-sleep. The game makes it extremely easy to come away thinking that a Sorceress can't die in a conventional manner, but there's nothing outright concrete saying they're immortal.

It's also contradictory to the fact that Ultimecia became who she is because of persecution for the crimes she would eventually commit. Her motivations just plainly aren't that she's gone mad and wants to see Squall again.
 

Balfour

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,746
That's not a reason to compress time though.

Why would she compress time when the reason she died was because she compressed time in the first place?

I also don't buy the idea that FF8 didn't end on a happy ending. I think it totally does. Squall and Rinoa have a wonderful life. But eventually squall dies and well... Sorceress have a tendency to go a bit mad. She uses her magic to keep herself alive until she can learn to send her consciousness back in time.

It's a theory that actually makes the FF8 story better than it is in it's original form.
The point is she doesn't know she causes her own death by compressing time. When Squall reaches her, she can't do anything about it. She doesn't know who kills her until its too late

The point in the irony is she compressed time to never be killed but ended up making a loop that ensures her demise by transferring her powers to Edea in the past, causing the events to unfold anyway
 

The Unsent

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Oct 25, 2017
19,621
The ending's surreal because it's supposed to be a visual representation of Squall losing his memories, because that's another part of how Time Compression works. It's not inexplicable, it's actually quite textual; Ultimecia explains it as doing that much in the Japanese version and this text was altered for the English release.

Again, you're arguing for things we know aren't true. There's an explanation here for everything, which is not to say you're at all required to enjoy it or that you have to think your own ideas wouldn't be better.
There's the imagery of the clouds opening, it's from Rinoa's perspective as well. They may say it's simply returning to the original time but I think there should be room to interpret whether there's more beyond that surface level, interpret the connection between reality and memories being compressed, and how characters are spring out of time compression and the ripples that may have been caused. Being unconstructive, to encourage people to say it has to be that, could make the product less engaging.
 

Weiss

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There's the imagery of the clouds opening, it's from Rinoa's perspective as well. They may say it's simply returning to the original time but I think there should be room to interpret whether there's more beyond that surface level, interpret the connection between reality and memories being compressed, and how characters are spring out of time compression and the ripples that may have been caused. Being unconstructive, to encourage people to say it has to be that, could make the product less engaging.

I'm less saying "it has to be that" because the game is already saying it for me and instead focusing on the game saying "it's definitely not that" because:

- Rinoa can't be Ultimecia and then spared from this fate because it is impossible to change the timeline.

- Rinoa can't be Ultimecia because Ultimecia's stated motivations aren't Rinoa's and the only way to connect the two in this way involves having Rinoa go mad and lose her memories over a centuries long lifespan, which is to say she isn't Rinoa anymore either way.

- Rinoa probably isn't Ultimecia because, coupled with the above fact that time cannot be changed, it would mean Squall's journey to learn to open his heart would end with him murdering the love of his life who turned evil because she lost him and none of this would have happened had Squall just remained isolated and miserable for the rest of his life.

I'll say it again, you're asking for something the game doesn't have.
 

Darkstorne

Member
Oct 26, 2017
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England
? The theory was shot down by the devs numerous times
Once, but what I've been arguing here is that devs doing that with fan theories isn't a good idea. If different people can come away from a story with different interpretations, then that's a really good thing. It drives a lot of discussion, and means a story can be important to a wider audience.

For devs (and indeed, certain posters in this thread) to declare their interpretation is correct and everyone else's is wrong, is just a bizarre thing to say, because it shuts down discussion and attempts to rubberstamp their own interpretation as superior when it's just that - an interpretation. Being open to a story having the potential for both happy and sad endings (like Pan's Labyrinth, or games that deliberately have multiple endings) takes absolutely nothing away from your own interpretation of the art. It's just more inclusive. It's why I'll always be confused when devs do it (including Mass Effect's IT) and why I'll always face-palm when other posters do it. It's counter productive. It's also why The Elder Scrolls has such an amazing lore community.
 
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Taruranto

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Oct 26, 2017
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Once, but what I've been arguing here is that devs doing that with fan theories isn't a good idea. If different people can come away from a story with different interpretations, then that's a really good thing. It drives a lot of discussion, and means a story can be important to a wider audience.

For devs (and indeed, certain posters in this thread) to declare their interpretation is correct and everyone else's is wrong, is just a bizarre thing to say, because it shuts down discussion and attempts to rubberstamp their own interpretation as superior when it's just that - an interpretation. Being open to a story having the potential for both happy and sad endings (like Pan's Labyrinth, or games that deliberately have multiple endings) takes absolutely nothing away from your own interpretation of the art. It's just more inclusive. It's why I'll always be confused when devs do it (including Mass Effect's IT) and why I'll always face-palm when other posters do it. It's counter productive. It's also why The Elder Scrolls has such an amazing lore community.
Devs shut down theories all the time, it's part of telling a story. Someone asked him if he meant to writer something, and he answered he didn't.

You are basically asking to lie so you can keep your fanfiction that isn't even compatible with the game's theme, rather than accept your take of the story is wrong.
 

Weiss

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Once, but what I've been arguing here is that devs doing that with fan theories isn't a good idea. If different people can come away from a story with different interpretations, then that's a really good thing. It drives a lot of discussion, and means a story can be important to a wider audience.

For devs (and indeed, certain posters in this thread) to declare their interpretation is correct and everyone else's is wrong, is just a bizarre thing to say, because it shuts down discussion and attempts to rubberstamp their own interpretation as superior when it's just that - an interpretation. Being open to a story having the potential for both happy and sad endings (like Pan's Labyrinth, or games that deliberately have multiple endings) takes absolutely nothing away from your own interpretation of the art. It's just more inclusive. It's why I'll always be confused when devs do it (including Mass Effect's IT) and why I'll always face-palm when other posters do it. It's counter productive. It's also why The Elder Scrolls has such an amazing lore community.

The difference between Pan's Labyrinth and Final Fantasy VIII is that one is supposed to be interpretative and the other is a straightforward ending that was poorly told.

I guess I can say something like "Link died at the start of Majora's Mask and he's going through the five stages of grief" because the game uses a lot of surreal fantasy imagery to tell its story, so that's an interpretation one could make even if I don't see value in it. As a matter of fact the Hyrule Encyclopedia made it canon that Termina doesn't actually exist and was just dreamed up by Skull Kid which I sure as hell reject because it makes no sense from within the game and has nothing to do with it as a story, so it's very easy for me to come to the conclusion that I know better than whoever the hell it is wrote that piece of lore.

What you're asking for is that we accept an interpretation of the text (Rinoa is Ultimecia) that goes against the main theme of the game that is so prominent it is advertised on the back of the jewel case, and sometimes this gets intermingled by other posters with Squall changing history so that Rinoa never becomes Ultimecia, except that isn't at all how the game explains how time travel works. You're asking for a change to the text to suit an interpretation that the game was never interested in making, so I don't know why it needs to be accepted. You can believe it, that's fine, but I don't see why you expect it not be argued against on the grounds of "it makes the story more interesting if you can come to any conclusion about it" when FFVIII isn't a story that's open to that particular interpretation.

Like FFVII ends in an ambiguous manner, that's one where any interpretation of whether Holy stopped Meteor or let it wipe humanity out is perfectly fine because the game was built for that open ending and let the audience decide for themselves whether the people of Gaia deserved another chance after Shinra's decades long exploitation of the Lifestream. Even if later FFVII media clarified that humanity survived (and this is actually pretty evident from the Lifestream rising up to support Holy juxtaposed with a vision of Aerith, because the other main theme of FFVII was that even if a loved one dies they're never really gone) you can still turn to the original game and say "this is what I feel it was conveying" and that just isn't something you can do with Final Fantasy VIII in this particular instance.
 

Quacktion

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 27, 2017
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Honestly as someone who never played the game or had much interest in it I heard this theory repeated as fact so many times by different people that I thought it was an actual plot point in the game, so this topic is kinda eye opening.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever™
Member
Sep 24, 2019
35,021
Honestly as someone who never played the game or had much interest in it I heard this theory repeated as fact so many times by different people that I thought it was an actual plot point in the game, so this topic is kinda eye opening.
lmao that's kinda great. The whole debate reminds me of the "Toby is the Scranton Strangler" fan theory from The Office honestly where the interpretation is clear, but the fan theory gains enough traction to where it muddies the waters for outsiders.
 

Keym

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
9,287
The game is not written to be compatible with this theory but it would've been a more interesting plot than what we got if it had been developed from the start.
 

Weiss

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Honestly as someone who never played the game or had much interest in it I heard this theory repeated as fact so many times by different people that I thought it was an actual plot point in the game, so this topic is kinda eye opening.

It took root because if you just played the game by its lonesome without any other knowledge or context you probably would come away thinking Rinoa is Ultimecia.

- Rinoa and Squall's big romantic moment on the Ragnarok has Rinoa state she wants to keep this moment in place forever, the literal definition of Time Compression.

- Ultimecia uses Griever as a Guardian Force in the final battle and there is an actual explanation for this: She created it on the spot by drawing from Squall's mind his ultimate expression of power but that's not clearly stated in the English version so it's extremely easy to assume that Griever is tied to Ultimecia because she's Rinoa, since Squall and Rinoa had that little scene together at the battle of the Gardens where Squall explains the symbolism of Griever (his necklace). I think, not entirely sure, that if you rename Griever to something else then the Griever boss fight will also have a different name.

- The ending sequence, where Squall's memories are stripped away as he's lost in Time Compression (again, something not clearly stated in the English version) features some juxtaposition of Rinoa and Ultimecia at one point and has lots of surreal nightmarish imagery surrounding Rinoa (because in this scene Squall is losing his memories of her).

- Ultimecia's Castle floats above the flower field at Edea's Orphanage in the far future where Ultimecia resides, and this flower field is where Rinoa and Squall promised to reunite (and indeed do in the ending when Rinoa saves Squall from Time Compression).

- Rinoa and Ultimecia are both Sorceresses and while the game never outright states they are immortal their lifespans are kind of up to interpretation. Adel was locked away in cryo sleep and shot into space and she was still completely conscious and broadcasting her thoughts so hard she scrambled radio communication across the entire planet (this is seen in Timber; the creepy red text on the outdoor TV is Adel demanding to be brought back), Rinoa becomes a Sorceress so they also elect for the cryo sleep treatment, and in the ending Edea makes a remark about the dying Ultimecia that she can't truly die until she passes her powers on to another person.

- Tying into the above there's a lot of theming around the Sorceress and her knight. Seifer leaps at the opportunity (with maybe some brainwashing) to be Ultimecia's protector because his dream is to be a knight to a Sorceress, and Squall promises to Rinoa that even if the entire world turns on her for being a Sorceress, he will always be her knight. From here, because of all the above, the theory goes that Squall passes away at some point and Rinoa is still alive and still being persecuted for being a Sorceress and will herself never die, so she eventually becomes the feared Sorceress.

- Something I just came up with now writing this out is that since Time Compression does cause memory loss, you could then easily explain that Ultimecia's study of it to enact her spell came at the cost of her memories of Squall and that's why she has nothing to say when they finally meet face to face at the end.
 

Darkstorne

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Oct 26, 2017
7,064
England
Devs shut down theories all the time, it's part of telling a story. Someone asked him if he meant to writer something, and he answered he didn't.

You are basically asking to lie so you can keep your fanfiction that isn't even compatible with the game's theme, rather than accept your take of the story is wrong.
I don't know why I have to explain this so many times. I'll make this my last time I guess, because it clearly isn't getting through. If a writer wants to shoot down various different interpretations of a story, or tell observers of their art that they're looking it at wrong, then that's their prerogative. I'm not even remotely upset that what I may or may not think is my preferred interpretation of a story is "wrong". I'm just always disappointed when a creator or observer of art thinks it's a good idea to tell people their interpretation is "wrong", rather than recognizing that art can mean different things to different people, and that's kind of a beautiful thing.
 

Kain

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
7,802
Rinoa = Ultimecia makes sense. Hence why the writers don't support it.
 

Taruranto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,080
I don't know why I have to explain this so many times. I'll make this my last time I guess, because it clearly isn't getting through. If a writer wants to shoot down various different interpretations of a story, or tell observers of their art that they're looking it at wrong, then that's their prerogative. I'm not even remotely upset that what I may or may not think is my preferred interpretation of a story is "wrong". I'm just always disappointed when a creator or observer of art thinks it's a good idea to tell people their interpretation is "wrong", rather than recognizing that art can mean different things to different people, and that's kind of a beautiful thing.
I already explained it to you, writers do it all the time when they tell a story. In the story itself and with sequels, spin-off and extra material, fan theories and personal theories get proven wrong all the time. Someone who played up to CD1 may have all kind of theories about Edea's motive and Squall's background, but in the end the story will either prove these theories right or wrong.

Also not all stories are meant to be interpretative, a lot of stories are straight to the point and clear cut with their messages, to the point some characters even deliver it themselves in the story (Which FFVIII does to some degree). There is no reason for Kisate to not shut down a theory that isn't even compatible with the script or the story's main theme under any kind of critical analysis and he never meant to write in the first place. The story itself explains (poorly) Ultimecia's motives, the extra material reinforce them, you can't be mad because decide to not subscript to a theory that doesn't even make sense with the game's script and would outright contradict the characters' motives and established material (FFVIII Ultimania came out in 1999 according to google, that's over 20 years ago).
 
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Slaythe

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,194
I was always partial to the Serge = Magus theory. The hair color, the eye color, and
the ultimate quest of saving Schala
. It all works.

It's not canon, of course, but you can't convince me they didn't toy around with the idea during development.

You see Serge marrying Kid in another timeline so uh ... yeah ...

We don't know what the link between Magus and Serge is since they removed him from the story.