incogneato

Self Requested Ban
Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,119
I said exactly that....
Then it's good that we both understand that having a discussion on an enthusiast forum that prides itself on sales, public reception, and general fanboyism is most likely not the venue to have a nuanced, respectful discussion on opinions. I've learned this a few days ago that I should know when and where to pick my battles online, it takes a lot of time and effort to make a meaningful post without my efforts being immediately dismissed with crappy one-liners or snark.
 

Tophat Jones

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,946
Then it's good that we both understand that having a discussion on an enthusiast forum that prides itself on sales, public reception, and general fanboyism is most likely not the venue to have a nuanced, respectful discussion on opinions. I've learned this a few days ago that I should know when and where to pick my battles online, it takes a lot of time and effort to make a meaningful post without my efforts being immediately dismissed with crappy one-liners or snark.
I get it. But in other threads dissenting opinions I feel are more often met with "oh that did work for me because...." the best I've heard for the Poe and Finn story is "everyone fails that's the point." Which is weak as hell for me. No one has to do it. But with so much conversation I would expect to see more of it.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,323
No one owes you an academic analysis of why they considered something "just fine" from their perspective, especially considering internet communication and sharing opinions always devolves into shout fests and "proving the other side's opinions wrong."

Conversely, those who disliked the movie should be allowed to express that opinion without being shouted down as anti-feminist, right wing, basement dwelling 4chan nerds.

Which isn't to say that the dissenters aren't made up of people like that, but to broad brush all those who disliked this movie in that way (as some in this thread have done) is a great way to build an echo chamber but not so good for open discussion.

Edit: For the record, I haven't seen the movie yet. I'm going tomorrow.

I'm excited. I loved TFA and was pretty meh on RO, but this looks good from the ads so I'm game.
 

disparate

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,096
The storytelling isn't particularly bold so I'm not really clear as to why people would take exception to it.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,323
The storytelling isn't particularly bold so I'm not really clear as to why people would take exception to it.

Not bold as a movie, or not bold as a Star Wars movie?

Because as long as it's not a nostalgia-fest or a bunch of cardboard cutouts sleepily reciting dialog written by a hermit, I'd say it's likely bolder than the five most recent Star Wars movies.

And I talk about the issue with too much nostalgia as someone who loved TFA. But even I rolled my eyes by the time it made its thirty-fourth reference to the OT.
 

Drexion

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
268
Saw this today. 1/3 poor, 1/3 average, and 1/3 great.

1/3 poor: One third of the film felt like it belonged in the spinoffs, like pointless dialogue, pointless attempts at humor, and pointless awkward pauses or one liners. (some of the humor was ok, definitely not all)
1/3 average: One third of the film was average, meaning it was neither better or worse than what you would expect from a modern film in the Star Wars franchise. (Around TFA quality).
1/3 great: One third of the film was great - but it's not a good sign that some of the great parts had the benefit provided by nostalgia, using actors/characters from the original trilogy who are being killed off and wont be involved with this franchise anymore.

This film was more ambitious than TFA but TFA felt more refined and polished mostly because almost every scene and line of dialogue had a purpose. IMO Disney shouldn't have been pushing for a yearly release alternating between the spinoffs and the main series, doesn't allow enough time for polishing, quality assurance and re-shoots if necessary. In the short run it makes them more money but in the long run it's going to end up with audience burnout and lower quality of releases.
 

disparate

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,096
Not bold as a movie, or not bold as a Star Wars movie?

Because as long as it's not a nostalgia-fest or a bunch of cardboard cutouts sleepily reciting dialog written by a hermit, I'd say it's likely bolder than the five most recent Star Wars movies.

And I talk about the issue with too much nostalgia as someone who loved TFA. But even I rolled my eyes by the thirty-fourth reference to the OT.
The former; the latter is such an extraordinarily low bar that it's not even fair.
 

catboy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,322
This film definitely suffers from middle film syndrome tho. Like the entire time you knew it was just setting up Ep 9. A Two Towers tea.
 

Kin5290

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,391
One things for sure . Justice league and last Jedi critics vs audience reviews provides all the ammo needed against rottentomatoes and such websites. Twice in one year. One they were told not to see it but many said reviews undersold movie and then this tune they were told to see it but many said reviews oversold the movie
Justice League was a bad movie. The audience agreed, which is why audience surveys were so bad, and it flopped at the box office. Audiences disliked Justice League and voted with their wallet.
 

Calm Killer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
824
I can tell you why I didn't like it. Stories and mysteries in the first movie were discarded without any real explanation or care. The story didn't feel epic at all to me, it was kind of a slog. They had a chance to make it interesting and go in a new direction and went with the predictable direction. I was disappointed, personally and I would not rank this Star wars movie in the top 6 for me personally.

Acting was amazing. The story was not. I enjoyed TFA way more. I saw it 3 times in theatre. I don't want to see this one again.
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,376
I wasnt directly speaking about online though. More word of mouth. The people that I care about were in the same boat as me, not liking it.

I can agree that online ratings can be crap.
Not to discount your opinions but it seems as if now the general audience reception is positive but we will have to probably wait for a few days before saying anything definitive
 

Deleted member 268

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,611
Defenders of this movie get so lost in the themes and subversive storytelling of the movie that they conflate "different" with "quality."

Yes, TFA was a safe movie, but it set things up nicely for the universe going forward.

I think it's safe to say the majority of fans were okay with TFA being a safe movie so long as going forward these sequels would carve out an identities more distinctly of their own.

TLJ is certainly different, and it certainly has an identity of its own, but that came at a cost, and simply because it tried something different does not mean fans have to be happy with the direction Rian Johnson took the franchise or be accused of being hypocrites that don't know what they want. Different is worthless if it's not good, and The Last Jedi is not good. It's abysmal.
 

Calm Killer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
824
Not to discount your opinions but it seems as if now the general audience reception is positive but we will have to probably wait for a few days before saying anything definitive

I could see that. My mom loved it, coworkers kid loved it, coworker and daughter loved it. Me and my coworker disliked it. It can all be related to personal expectations and how you enjoy movies. I love the mystery aspect of JJ and his writing. Most people that I have seen that love it enjoyed Rian discarding those mysteries because they don't like JJ and his mysteries. Complete eample of taste I believe.
 

Lebron

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,619
I mean, if ERA and reddit are any indication the fandom isn't going to get over this for a minute.
This is like the CoD crowd throwing tantrums and sending Activision a message. Don't mean shit. General audience impressions are positive and the thing is pulling in money like TFA. You would see day to day drops like a DC film if people "hated" it.

Disney ain't changing shit lol
 

Deleted member 135

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,682
I saw it a second time again today and I've mellowed on it a bit, I still think it's not as good as any of the OT or as TFA, but it's better than RO and miles better than the PT.

The Finn subplot was still pointless, Phasma was still pointless, I still don't like how the legacy of the OT heroes has been demolished, Snoke getting no exposition was a bad choice, story pacing was off, having Luke project instead of showing up in his X-Wing wasn't the choice I'd make in that context, Yoda instead of Anakin wasn't what I'd do.

I'd initially have it a 6/10, now I'd give it a 7.5/10. TFA is an 8/10, ESB is a 10/10 and ROTJ and ANH are both 9/10.
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,047
I mean, if ERA and reddit are any indication the fandom isn't going to get over this for a minute.

Were you around during TFA, there were endless threads about Mary Sues. With a base as large as Star Wars some segment of the fans will be upset. The people most upset appear to be internet trolls and people on 4 chan.

Besides, if you've visited places like TheForce.net's Jedi Council forums, the place was already a hot mess of bickering and antagonism weeks before the film's release because everyone wanted their 'theory' to be the right one and viewed people who disagreed as enemies. It got so bad the mods had to make a post about it.
Those people are toxic and this film could be the GOAT and you'd still get the same reactions from the same people.

I'd take a step back and asses the situation before jumping to conclusions.
 

disparate

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,096
Unless I'm missing something it seems like the criticisms levied in this thread seem to point at almost everything except for Rey.
 

dang0

Member
Oct 28, 2017
245
Auckland, New Zealand
I can tell you why I didn't like it. Stories and mysteries in the first movie were discarded without any real explanation or care. The story didn't feel epic at all to me, it was kind of a slog. They had a chance to make it interesting and go in a new direction and went with the predictable direction. I was disappointed, personally and I would not rank this Star wars movie in the top 6 for me personally.

Acting was amazing. The story was not. I enjoyed TFA way more. I saw it 3 times in theatre. I don't want to see this one again.

I can understand the unepic complaint a bit, though I don't fully agree, but I don't get the point about it being predictable. I thought the exact opposite. Could you elaborate?
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,376
Unless I'm missing something it seems like the criticisms levied in this thread seem to point at almost everything except for Rey.
If you're talking about the "sjw" stuff people are talking about a lot of the user scores on rotten tomatoes and apparently some trolls 4chan organising mass votes not people on era
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,047
Yep. the tragedy of these mass vote bombing by fringe elements is that people with legit concerns about the movie get swept up in it, but then again I've seen more than a few ERA posters cite the same low audience score on RT as proof of their position. So some people seem to revel on it and see it as vindication.
 

disparate

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,096
If you're talking about the "sjw" stuff people are talking about a lot of the user scores on rotten tomatoes and apparently some trolls 4chan organising mass votes not people on era
I'm saying that you have people including myself that find the film unremarkable or worse- but few if any criticisms involve Rey or her storyline at least here.
 

Deleted member 176

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
37,160
Oct 27, 2017
351
Australia
short answer...its basically a poor mans cgi version mad max in space with laser swords.

Without getting into spoiler territory they could basically cut one of the plotlines from the movie and it would make no difference to the story...they focused on the wrong thing and the part which people wanted to see...was explained through a long and drawn out set of short flashbacks that adds nothing to the surrounding mystery
i get the feeling we are going to get a really fat and overloaded part 3 if they want to address all the plot holes they tried to skim over
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,428
Whatever your opinion of the film, I can't have been the only one who was actually surprised by how much stuff happened in the movie, even as they played the "Fuck what you think you know." card over and over again.

I kept waiting for some sort of standoff cliffhanger, but it continues which I like because I have absolutely no expectations of what they'll do next.
 

Calm Killer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
824
I can understand the unepic complaint a bit, though I don't fully agree, but I don't get the point about it being predictable. I thought the exact opposite. Could you elaborate?

Sure, without posting spoilers, when Kylo did what he did with the lightsaber and Rey was there, I want him to leave. That wouldn't be predictiable. Who's the villian at that point? That would be amazing. But it was predictable for him to stay and be the villian. I wanted him to leave, that would have been full filling to me
 
Last edited: