Moose the Fattest Cat

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Hard conversations are hard to have. It's easy to sit from where you are and backseat drive on what people should have done and when they should have done it, but that's not a time, place, or perspective that people on the inside had. Blaming victims gives more power to the abusers.

The fact of the matter is, weeks have passed and you're still dragging this whole thread through mud over the actions of people who are already thrown out on their ass and have been for some time now.

Why do you suppose the bolded is true? Do you suppose your actions are helping hard conversations to happen, or are you stamping out what you'd rather not have to think about because you're just... tired of it?

It's funny how no other conversation about SRB2's development has been considered waste of time, isn't it? Only when the game's development change invites the conversation to talk about the human cost involved to your favorite Sonic game, then it's really just a massive inconvenience. Oh sure, not that you don't agree with the point, yes you are very sympathetic to the abused, you just don't like how the point is being made.
 
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Moose the Fattest Cat

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Dec 15, 2017
1,439
I've been dodging the repeated question from multiple of why does this bother you so much? In part because the answer ought to be obvious, inherently. It's not a big enough game to warrant attention beyond message boards, but to that end, here we are on page 10, and I've probably -- before even just the last two pages -- contributed almost as many posts to it as anyone with the earlier expressed enthusiasm or thoughts on the game mechanics, mods, etc. So it's on one level just merely addressing here what was addressed on the game's specific forum/community, and again, providing the counter-weight "for the record." It doesn't strike me as a controversial opinion, that the abuse described - vaguely - from the developers, is offensive as hell. It compounds on the already obvious toxic stank that emanated from their tone online, and to a degree, in the game design -- although this is harder to elucidate as it's attempting to put to words a feeling on an intuitive level where language fails us, but here I go because I remarked a few times, in whichever thread, how it felt like there was a certain strand of nerd humor in the levels, but not a friendly or self-effacing or goofy humor for the most part, but the kind of "edgy" tone that's hard to describe exactly except by way of comparison to the Something Awful or early 4chan years where you can detect a level of sadism. It was just the tone of the times, too, the mid-00s when Mystic apparently reshaped the community.

I still haven't answered. I'll just say it is impossible that I am the only person who has seen this behavior pattern elsewhere and has been affected by it, as in, someone in your life or you yourself. There is a community complicity that goes unacknowledged, unaddressed, and unchanged and it is infuriating to see it perpetuate in seemingly every aspect of culture, from Catholic churches in small towns and everybody apparently knowing but not saying anything to the people who would need to hear it most, to Shane Dawson, to this crap. Beyond that, I don't know what else to say that I haven't already.
 

Warszawa

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Sep 30, 2018
334
What I wouldn't give for somebody to make a version of this for the Saturn. But I think this has progressed beyond just a simple Doom .Wad. The technical requirements to get this on Saturn are so out of reach it would be impossible. The Doom port on Saturn was also already pretty botched.
 

BlazeHedgehog

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Oct 27, 2017
702
Oh, yeah, there's no way this would run on the Sega Saturn anymore. Heck, even Doom itself barely ran on the Saturn, though there is a bit of controversy regarding what happened to the Saturn port of Doom.



I remember there was a Dreamcast port of SRB2, but it had performance problems. As the game grew, I think it became impossible to run even on the Dreamcast. SRB2 has very, very big levels, with way more entities in them than the standard Doom map.
 

Warszawa

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Sep 30, 2018
334
Oh, yeah, there's no way this would run on the Sega Saturn anymore. Heck, even Doom itself barely ran on the Saturn, though there is a bit of controversy regarding what happened to the Saturn port of Doom.

I remember there was a Dreamcast port of SRB2, but it had performance problems. As the game grew, I think it became impossible to run even on the Dreamcast. SRB2 has very, very big levels, with way more entities in them than the standard Doom map.

Nothing on paper would suggest the Saturn couldn't run a decent version of Doom, most consoles just lacked the memory, although the 3DOs slow CPU hindered its own port. I mean you have two CPUS in the Saturn, that are probs each about as fast as an FPU-less 486, you could do it in software.

But then who wants to do that, when the Saturn was a pain to code on.
 

BlazeHedgehog

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Oct 27, 2017
702
Nothing on paper would suggest the Saturn couldn't run a decent version of Doom, most consoles just lacked the memory, although the 3DOs slow CPU hindered its own port. I mean you have two CPUS in the Saturn, that are probs each about as fast as an FPU-less 486, you could do it in software.

But then who wants to do that, when the Saturn was a pain to code on.

Well SUPPOSEDLY, if you believe everything you hear on the internet (and you shouldn't), Doom on the Saturn was running nearly 60fps because they were in the process of converting all of its levels over to use proper 3D rendered polygons, sort of like what was done with the Saturn port of Duke Nukem 3D. But as the story goes (that I heard), John Carmack put his foot down and told them they had to render it in software or else "it wasn't Doom"

That and the port was rushed, as most console versions were
 

Solid SOAP

One Winged Slayer
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What I wouldn't give for somebody to make a version of this for the Saturn. But I think this has progressed beyond just a simple Doom .Wad. The technical requirements to get this on Saturn are so out of reach it would be impossible. The Doom port on Saturn was also already pretty botched.
I really don't think a Saturn version could truly work... the best you'll get is using a Saturn controller on PC, I think. Even so, I can't imagine playing this without camera controller, and the Saturn didn't have a 2nd stick or Dpad I dont believe.

I'm really excited for the OLDC to breathe some life into this game. Many custom-made levels have surpassed the game's main campaign levels, imo. Take a look at the Neo Palm Tree Zone for example. Its gigantic and full of great platforming.
 

Warszawa

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Sep 30, 2018
334
Well SUPPOSEDLY, if you believe everything you hear on the internet (and you shouldn't), Doom on the Saturn was running nearly 60fps because they were in the process of converting all of its levels over to use proper 3D rendered polygons, sort of like what was done with the Saturn port of Duke Nukem 3D. But as the story goes (that I heard), John Carmack put his foot down and told them they had to render it in software or else "it wasn't Doom"

That and the port was rushed, as most console versions were
Yeah I heard that story, also that John Romero was on holiday the week they received information about the Port from the dev team working on it, Romero was usually the one who green light ports, provided objections etc, but Carmack was the one who veto'd rendering the game with Polygons. Romero said in a later interview he would have let them experiment had he been in the office when the request came through.

Carmack was irked about Affine Rendering, which is how the PS1 and Saturn Displays processors worked. The reasons why the PS1 version worked so well is because they used a function in the PS1 display processor which could do hardware accelerated vertical 'stripes', VDP1 didn't have the same function so everything was in software, and also rushed.

I really don't think a Saturn version could truly work... the best you'll get is using a Saturn controller on PC, I think. Even so, I can't imagine playing this without camera controller, and the Saturn didn't have a 2nd stick or Dpad I dont believe.
Thats besides the point, thats an objection based on wether you think the game would be worthwhile to play based on controller functions, it doesn't determine wether the Saturn could run a half decent port or not. I mean if thats an issue, both the Jaguar, 3D0 and PS1 ports shouldn't exist, the PS1 dual analogue hadn't even been demo'd before the mid-November 1995 release on PS1.

E'gad have you seen the Jaguar controller?
 

Solid SOAP

One Winged Slayer
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Yeah I heard that story, also that John Romero was on holiday the week they received information about the Port from the dev team working on it, Romero was usually the one who green light ports, provided objections etc, but Carmack was the one who veto'd rendering the game with Polygons. Romero said in a later interview he would have let them experiment had he been in the office when the request came through.

Carmack was irked about Affine Rendering, which is how the PS1 and Saturn Displays processors worked. The reasons why the PS1 version worked so well is because they used a function in the PS1 display processor which could do hardware accelerated vertical 'stripes', VDP1 didn't have the same function so everything was in software, and also rushed.


Thats besides the point, thats an objection based on wether you think the game would be worthwhile to play based on controller functions, it doesn't determine wether the Saturn could run a half decent port or not. I mean if thats an issue, both the Jaguar, 3D0 and PS1 ports shouldn't exist, the PS1 dual analogue hadn't even been demo'd before the mid-November 1995 release on PS1.

E'gad have you seen the Jaguar controller?
Just stating my opinion my dude! Regardless though, with the vastness of SRB2's levels, I struggle to fathom it running well, if at all, on a Saturn.

I like to thinking of this though as lost Saturn game regardless, though. It fits the aesthetic and if I were a kid I wouldn't bat an eye about this existing on a console at the time.

Wow this game looks sega saturn as fuck 😍
Forreal. Have you played it yet? It really fits that niche desire to see an "early 3D" Sonic game. It's so fully realized that it's essentially a full game, even if its still being worked on (there are STILL new zones to be worked into the game!).

The optional 3D models really bring the Saturn aesthetic to life, though. Peep these models:

EQ-G5MNX0AAXHit.png
 
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Warszawa

Member
Sep 30, 2018
334
Just stating my opinion my dude! Regardless though, with the vastness of SRB2's levels, I struggle to fathom it running well, if at all, on a Saturn.

I like to thinking of this though as lost Saturn game regardless, though. It fits the aesthetic and if I were a kid I wouldn't bat an eye about this existing on a console at the time.

I think were both missing each others points, I'm talking about the Doom engine as is and the Saturn being able to run it fine albeit with some cut corners like the other console versions of the time.

And I think your referring to the idea of getting whatever Doom derivative SRB2 is running on Saturn, which I initially eluded to but understood would be nigh on impossible without massive cuts because of how much the SRB2 engine and level size has has no doubt gone beyond the original Doom IDTECH engine.
 

Solid SOAP

One Winged Slayer
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I think were both missing each others points, I'm talking about the Doom engine as is and the Saturn being able to run it fine albeit with some cut corners like the other console versions of the time.

And I think your referring to the idea of getting whatever Doom derivative SRB2 is running on Saturn, which I initially eluded to but understood would be nigh on impossible without massive cuts because of how much the SRB2 engine and level size has has no doubt gone beyond the original Doom IDTECH engine.
Gotcha!
 

Solid SOAP

One Winged Slayer
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These models look great, better than anything Sega attempted with the character on the DC and beyond.
I love them. They really boost the game's "lost Sonic game for SEGA Saturn" appeal for me. They also kinda highlight how there was a bit of charm lost from the move to 3D for Sonic. I love the simplistic aesthetic of the characters with minimal details and eye-popping colors.

You can download them here if you want:

Jeck Jims' 2.2 3D Models v1.6

V1.45 Shadow the Hedgehog I feel like I have less and less to say with each update. Here's Shadow. Huge shout-outs to Inazuma obviously, I wouldn't have been able to reach the quality in animations and poses without his sprites. This shadow supports all the bells and whistles supported in...

The 3DS or Android version? Won't be able to try it before tonight though.
Either one! I'm mostly curious about the 3DS one though.
 

Deleted member 20429

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Oct 28, 2017
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Finally got round to trying this the weekend thanks to this thread. I fell in love with it so hard. It has by far become my favourite Sonic game, and probably is in my top 3 favourite games I've played this year. I love how it encapsulates the look and feel of old school Sonic while doing 3D better than any attempt Sega has done.

There was a learning curve with the controls, but getting to grips with it by the end of the game just made me want to go back and play through the whole thing again, and enjoyed it even more doing so.
 

Solid SOAP

One Winged Slayer
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Finally got round to trying this the weekend thanks to this thread. I fell in love with it so hard. It has by far become my favourite Sonic game, and probably is in my top 3 favourite games I've played this year. I love how it encapsulates the look and feel of old school Sonic while doing 3D better than any attempt Sega has done.
Definitely. It feels like the 2D game with its vastness of level design and ability to speedrun, but it accomplishes new things too that none of the other Sonic games, 2D or 3D, have accomplished.

There was a learning curve with the controls, but getting to grips with it by the end of the game just made me want to go back and play through the whole thing again, and enjoyed it even more doing so.
Def! Replayability is through the roof with this game, just like the old ones. The controls through really highlight just how tough it is to make a good 3D Sonic game, though. They're really not intuitive and I can't see kids picking up and playing this as easily as the classics, or modern Sonic for that matter. I can see why SEGA have been struggling for so long.
 

alphacat

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Oct 27, 2017
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Just stating my opinion my dude! Regardless though, with the vastness of SRB2's levels, I struggle to fathom it running well, if at all, on a Saturn.

I like to thinking of this though as lost Saturn game regardless, though. It fits the aesthetic and if I were a kid I wouldn't bat an eye about this existing on a console at the time.


Forreal. Have you played it yet? It really fits that niche desire to see an "early 3D" Sonic game. It's so fully realized that it's essentially a full game, even if its still being worked on (there are STILL new zones to be worked into the game!).

The optional 3D models really bring the Saturn aesthetic to life, though. Peep these models:

EQ-G5MNX0AAXHit.png

gonna download this on my pc. is it playable with a controller?
 
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Unknownlight

Unknownlight

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Say I'm wondering is there a way to play the latest version of this on a Vita, 3DS or PSP?

No, sorry, modern SRB2 can't run on any of those. The existing ports in the link from earlier are for years-old versions. Currently, SRB2 is playable for PC, Mac, Linux, Android, Nintendo Switch, and web browser.

Yes, really, web browser. It's a shockingly impressive port.

mazmazz.github.io

Sonic Robo Blast 2 for Web

Play this 3D Sonic the Hedgehog fangame in your web browser! Works on PC, Chromebook, iPhone, and Android.

The optional 3D models really bring the Saturn aesthetic to life, though. Peep these models:

EQ-G5MNX0AAXHit.png

A new model pack is in developments that I'm really liking the look of.

 

Skyfireblaze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,257
I love them. They really boost the game's "lost Sonic game for SEGA Saturn" appeal for me. They also kinda highlight how there was a bit of charm lost from the move to 3D for Sonic. I love the simplistic aesthetic of the characters with minimal details and eye-popping colors.

You can download them here if you want:

Jeck Jims' 2.2 3D Models v1.6

V1.45 Shadow the Hedgehog I feel like I have less and less to say with each update. Here's Shadow. Huge shout-outs to Inazuma obviously, I wouldn't have been able to reach the quality in animations and poses without his sprites. This shadow supports all the bells and whistles supported in...


Either one! I'm mostly curious about the 3DS one though.

I didn't feel like firing up Android on my Switch but I did try the new 3DS version and while it's an old build like Unkownlight said, it runs really well and the 3D effect looks amazing!

No, sorry, modern SRB2 can't run on any of those. The existing ports in the link from earlier are for years-old versions. Currently, SRB2 is playable for PC, Mac, Linux, Android, Nintendo Switch, and web browser.

Yes, really, web browser. It's a shockingly impressive port.

mazmazz.github.io

Sonic Robo Blast 2 for Web

Play this 3D Sonic the Hedgehog fangame in your web browser! Works on PC, Chromebook, iPhone, and Android.



A new model pack is in developments that I'm really liking the look of.



I see, thanks for clearing that up, the browser-port looks really impressive!
 

HustleBun

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Nov 12, 2017
6,077
This game is such a gift. Bravo to the team who work on this, this is the Sonic game that could have moved Saturns back in the day.

And I want to high five the person who did the music. As soon as I reached Green Flower Act 2, I had such a smile on my face. I heard little bits that reminded me of Jazz Jackrabbit 2, Sonic Adventure and the og One Piece theme all rolled into one sweet little package.

Really enjoying this.
 
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Unknownlight

Unknownlight

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And I want to high five the person who did the music. As soon as I reached Green Flower Act 2, I had such a smile on my face.

What I love so much is how the game is a tribute to its own history. So much of the music is incredibly old. You can go back to the early experimental 2D builds from early 1998, and... yep, there's the Greenflower 2 music. It's been massively improved, but it's basically the same song even 20+ years later.



@4:10, if the timestamp doesn't work.

And the current version:

 

HustleBun

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Nov 12, 2017
6,077
What I love so much is how the game is a tribute to its own history. So much of the music is incredibly old. You can go back to the early experimental 2D builds from early 1998, and... yep, there's the Greenflower 2 music. It's been massively improved, but it's basically the same song even 20+ years later.



@4:10, if the timestamp doesn't work.

And the current version:


That's incredible, thank you for that.
 
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Unknownlight

Unknownlight

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It's always a treat when this game gets coverage from bigger YouTube channels, in this case Digital Foundry. :)

 

Deleted member 3010

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It's always a treat when this game gets coverage from bigger YouTube channels, in this case Digital Foundry. :)


Yeah, after seeing this I jumped on my PC and DL'd it.

This is 3D Sonic done right. I can't believe that I'm playing a game so polished, so good and that's a fan game and free. This feels first party as fuck, and speaks volume of the love that's crafted into it. This feels like what Sonic could've been on Saturn.

Even the water levels are good and fun, the water levels folks. The music is excellent and carries that Sonic-ish vibe all the way.

I've never been this focused and amazed by a game in some time, as I've been in a dark place lately by losing a close family member. This game is doing wonders, amazing job. Thanks to everyone involved.
 
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Aaron

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Oct 25, 2017
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Yeah, after seeing this I jumped on my PC and DL'd it.

This is 3D Sonic done right. I can't believe that I'm playing a game so polished, so good and that's a fan game and free. This feels first party as fuck, and speaks volume of the love that's crafted into it. This feels like what Sonic could've been on Saturn.

Even the water levels are good and fun, the water levels folks. The music is excellent and carries that Sonic-ish vibe all the way.

I've never been this focused and amazed by a game in some time, as I've been in a dark place lately by losing a close family member. This game is doing wonders, amazing job. Thanks to everyone involved.
To be fair they've also been working on this for literally 22 years lol. It better feel polished.

However that doesn't take away from the achievement, and if anything the dedication makes it even more impressive. It's pretty remarkable to find the same game I dicked around with with my friends back in like, 2000 on our crappy, slow Windows 98 PC has consistently been worked on and receiving updates all this time.
 
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Unknownlight

Unknownlight

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To be fair they've also been working on this for literally 22 years lol. It better feel polished.

Despite "It's been in development for over 20 years!" being one of the game's selling points, it's actually somewhat misleading. SRB2 is Scope Creep: The Video Game. Both the game and the dev team from the early 2000s are completely different from the current game and dev team. It just keeps on getting more ambitious over time, resulting in previous work constantly getting scrapped and remade.

In terms of stuff like raw art/music/animation assets and level design, modern SRB2 quote-unquote "started development" mid-2016. Most of what you see and hear and play was made during that time.
 

BlazeHedgehog

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Oct 27, 2017
702
I don't know if SRB2 got that much more ambitious over time, really. Most of the levels in the game right now were in the design document I saw all the way back in 2003/2004. I think the only truly "new" addition was Castle Eggman, which was originally just a quick-and-dirty bonus level for one of the demos that ended up being adopted in to the lineup because people grew attached to the concept.

Then again, I suppose it's pretty ambitious to redesign 75% of your entire level roster three times. The levels SRB2 has today are almost completely different from the levels it had, say, five years ago. But that was necessary as more features came online (horizontal moving platforms, proper slopes, etc.)

And the thing is, those are features that to some extent always felt like they were eventually going to be added anyway, given enough time and enough people working on the game. For as far back as I can remember, there was always talk of what the Build Engine (and later GZDoom) could do versus what Doom Legacy could do in terms of features, with lots of "wouldn't it be cool if we could make real slopes instead of weird stair sectors?" talk

Even then, I don't think SRB2 necessarily was that weird in terms of development. Look at, like, the Gigaleak and all the stuff Nintendo threw away, or the Half-Life 2 leak, and how many levels Valve made that never ended up in the retail version of the game. Those are companies that employ hundreds of people, so they can prototype and implement whatever they want in days or weeks whereas SRB2's active team has always been a revolving door of maybe ten people at maximum. Many are hobbyists who aren't paid and don't work on the game as a job.

It's always been more impressive to me that SRB2 built a community that's lasted this long and is strong enough to carry the game when the chips are down. A lot of big budget retail games would kill for that kind of dedicated fan base.
 

lazygecko

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Oct 25, 2017
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One thing that sort of bothers me is how the levels actually end up feeling flatter visually than the 2D games. I think it's probably down to the 2D games' extensive use of parallax background layers to convey a great sense of depth in the surroundings and you just don't get the same feel with a simple 3D skybox. But another crucial thing I feel is missing is how the ground/walls in the 2D games use lots of highlight and shadow shading to imply all these protrusions and crevices, and when you just have these extensive flat walls with repetitive tiles in the Doom engine it just doesn't feel the same. I'm wondering how you could approach the level design and art assets differently to accomodate these elements better in 3D.
 
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Unknownlight

Unknownlight

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I don't know if SRB2 got that much more ambitious over time, really. Most of the levels in the game right now were in the design document I saw all the way back in 2003/2004. I think the only truly "new" addition was Castle Eggman, which was originally just a quick-and-dirty bonus level for one of the demos that ended up being adopted in to the lineup because people grew attached to the concept.

Yeah, SRB2 has remained remarkably faithful to the design document a 13-year-old wrote in 1998. Like you said, it's the features and level design itself that's gotten so much more ambitious.



It's always been more impressive to me that SRB2 built a community that's lasted this long and is strong enough to carry the game when the chips are down. A lot of big budget retail games would kill for that kind of dedicated fan base.

100%. I trust that SRB2 will still be around 10 years from now in some form or another, and that's wild.
 

Solid SOAP

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A pretty interesting patch has released!

SRB2 Version 2.2.7 Patch Release « Sonic Robo Blast 2 – Official Website

Hello everybody! We’ve got another new update for you! Since we had so much help from public testing, we were able to fix a lot of bugs. Thank you so much! We’ve also added some cool new features, such as: Built-in skincolors may now be changed. Added the netticbuffer cvar. This stores some...

SRB2 Version 2.2.7 Patch Release
SeventhSentinel - September 30, 2020
Hello everybody! We've got another new update for you!
Since we had so much help from public testing, we were able to fix a lot of bugs. Thank you so much! We've also added some cool new features, such as:
  • Built-in skincolors may now be changed.
  • Added the netticbuffer cvar. This stores some inputs in a buffer in case the network is slow, exchanging netcode induced lag for input delay.
  • (OpenGL) Model Lighting now works when shaders are enabled.
  • Added a menu option to show joiner's IP addresses.
  • New Master Server technology, bringing more uptime and smoother menus.
  • Optimized loading of PNG graphics, greatly reducing the load time of levels that happen to use PNGs.
  • Players can no longer change their name more than five times per minute.
  • Added a new Black Eggman sprite render by SuperPhanto.
  • 3D models made by Jeck Jims are now included with the game.
You can read the full changelog here.
Windows users: we have also changed from the stinky old 7-zip self extracting archive to a shiny new professional installer that supports four languages. Patching the game from here on out should be faster and easier. We are also including full installers for every single update moving forward. (We will still provide zip archives for those that need/prefer them.) We hope these changes benefit new players and our non-English communities. We would like to extend our thanks for ACStriker and yfyfyfyfyfy for the Spanish and Russian translations of the installers, respectively.
That's it! What are you waiting for? Head to the Downloads page already!
One of the big things about this patch is that it makes some of the community's finest 3D models integrated officially into the game! What that means is that all you have to do to turn on 3D models is go to the settings menu and turn models on. For those who don't know, this is a sample of some of the game's 3D models:

EQ-G5MNX0AAXHit.png


They're super charming and provide a great pseudo-Saturn vibe to the game.

So yeah... once again it's a great time to jump into this game if you haven't yet. One of if not THE best 3D Sonic game, etc.
 

stan423321

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Oct 25, 2017
8,676
that kinda depends on definition of "could"

as in, I think if they dropped everything else in the world, they could probably get it running on DC with few compromises, but it would be ridiculous to demand trying that
 

Solid SOAP

One Winged Slayer
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Do you know how to select those 3D models within the game?
Yes. First, obviously make sure you downloaded the latest version (2.7); it should indicate on the bottom left of the title screen if you have done so.

Next, go to the Options menu, then go to Video Options. Go to the bottom of the menu and click "Opengl Options..."

Turn 3D Models on from that menu. Id also recommend turning off ambient lighting, makes the models look a bit odd!
 

IronicSonic

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Yes. First, obviously make sure you downloaded the latest version (2.7); it should indicate on the bottom left of the title screen if you have done so.

Next, go to the Options menu, then go to Video Options. Go to the bottom of the menu and click "Opengl Options..."

Turn 3D Models on from that menu. Id also recommend turning off ambient lighting, makes the models look a bit odd!
Thanks a lot! Models look great!