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Square announces FFBE will be inaccessible in Belgium

Musubi

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,627
From the FFBE Facebook page:

• An important notice for all players residing in Belgium

We regret to inform you that due to the present uncertain legal status of "loot boxes" under Belgian law, "FINAL FANTASY BRAVE EXVIUS" will be withdrawn from service in Belgium in 30 days, on December 3rd at the earliest.

What this means for our players:

You will be able to continue playing until the next update scheduled on December 3rd. After the update, you will no longer be able to access or play the game, or spend any unused in-game currency or items. We recommend you use them all in their entirety and enjoy the game before December 3rd. We want to thank you for your understanding and most importantly for playing and having fun with "FINAL FANTASY BRAVE EXVIUS."
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https://www.facebook.com/ffbeen/photos/a.591516477676903/1239145919580619/?type=3&theater

I feel like were going to be seeing way more of this with companies opting to just pull entirely out of a region due to newly enacted laws surrounding loot boxes and "gambling". That really sucks for anyone in Belgium who has really invested in the game.
 
ASaiyan

ASaiyan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,228
This will keep happening, until lootboxes are given no quarter in any country. Keep the pressure up.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
As someone who spent a crazy amount of money on this game mostly due to gamblers fallacy and my own stupidity, the Belgium players are better off. I really hope that someday these mobile games are designed differently than what they are now. They truly do prey on certain behaviors.
 

Tomasdk

Banned
Apr 18, 2018
910
SMT Dx2 is doing the same thing. It's bad news for anyone who spent money on the game but if more countries do what Belgium did, it will be good in the long run as publishers will have to adapt since withdrawing from a county won't be a viable option anymore for them.
 
Lagamorph

Lagamorph

Wrong About Chicken
Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,355
No surprise. Belgium will have been a tiny market for them so it's easier to just pull the game from the region entirely. Not to mention they know that people in Belgium who are really addicted will just find other ways to play, such as installing the game through something like QooApp rather than the Play Store.

Until we start seeing larger markets, like the entire EU, the USA and Japan enacting regulations like this though then there won't be any change.
 
LAA

LAA

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,343
Yeah, SE showing their true colours.
They'd rather pull the game (As changes they implement could make the game actually better in Belgium.. or worse actually if they wanted to do that).
But yeah hope more countries follow suit, probably won't happen, but can hope.
 
Sheepinator

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,051
As Square says, the law is uncertain in Belgium. What happened was the Belgian Gaming Commission decided based on a small study which may or may not have been handled well, that lootboxes apply to an existing 1999 law. Some publishers turned off purchases there, figuring that was the quick and easy solution. EA seems to be fighting it, as they should, since currently it looks like government over-reach. It needs to be tested in court and either become legal precedent or get ignored.

Now instead of simply ignoring a lootbox, nobody there even has the option to play the game. That doesn't sound like a win to me.
 
Last edited:
Ossom

Ossom

Member
Oct 31, 2017
821
Nirolak said:
So far, basically all the other EU countries that have weighed in, including the biggest markets, have said they're legal, so this looks like it will mostly end with less games in Belgium.
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Do you mean they concluded the investigation by Austria, Czech Republic, France, Gibraltar, Ireland, Isle of Man, Jersey, Latvia, Malta, The Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Spain, and the UK, or is your statement based on what was said prior to this?


https://metro.co.uk/2018/09/17/15-c...ces-to-tackle-loot-boxes-7952253/?ito=cbshare
 
BernardoOne

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
LAA said:
Yeah, SE showing their true colours.
They'd rather pull the game (As changes they implement could make the game actually better in Belgium.. or worse actually if they wanted to do that).
But yeah hope more countries follow suit, probably won't happen, but can hope.
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There's no changes they can really implement at all, no
 
Thrill_house

Thrill_house

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,632
Oh probably better off for it. Game seemed to be fun but the gacha shit made me uninstall it off my phone pretty quick. Shame too as it was a fun time waster
 
Nirolak

Nirolak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,660
Ossom said:
Do you mean they concluded the investigation by Austria, Czech Republic, France, Gibraltar, Ireland, Isle of Man, Jersey, Latvia, Malta, The Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Spain, and the UK, or is your statement based on what was said prior to this?


https://metro.co.uk/2018/09/17/15-c...ces-to-tackle-loot-boxes-7952253/?ito=cbshare
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I mean, read the actual statement: http://www.arjel.fr/IMG/pdf/20180917CPEN.pdf

It's an information sharing coalition, and each gambling commission will act according to their own legal purview and national laws.

They note that they're hoping the coalition and information sharing will raise parental and consumer awareness and let them have an easier time talking to product vendors.

This is not a new investigation about legality of issues they already weighed in on within their own countries. It's a resource pooling arrangement so they can have full information quicker and act upon issues as they emerge by their own legal frameworks, while also upping their consumer advocacy communication.
 
RedAhmed

RedAhmed

Member
Jan 9, 2018
3,289
Multiple games are becoming inaccessible for Belgium players, if I remember right, Dragon Ball Dokkan Battle made it impossible for Belgium players to spend money in the game.

I doubt the rest of Europe or the world will follow, considering lots of countries decided loot boxes are not gambling.
 
Zafir

Zafir

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,049
Yeah, Shin Megami Tensei Dx2 did the same thing, which sucks for anyone from there who had spent money previously. In Dx2's case, the sad thing was, they could have come up with a solution for Belgium since they also sold packs for other items and a currency which actually allows you to fuse the majority of the demons in the game directly without the need of RNG. So in theory they could have just removed the gacha part and they could have still earned money. I guess the amount of people playing from there was so low, that even doing that wasn't worth the effort.
 
Wereroku

Wereroku

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,259
I'm confused couldn't they just disable currency purchases like other similar games instead of removing the game entirely? So this is just SE not wanting to cover the cost of the game while everything is decided. Kind of a shit decision for their customers.
 
Dust

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,311
I think most of gacha games are bailing from Belgium.
I know Bandai pulled all of their games.

Wereroku said:
I'm confused couldn't they just disable currency purchases like other similar games instead of removing the game entirely? So this is just SE not wanting to cover the cost of the game while everything is decided. Kind of a shit decision for their customers.
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Because they want P2P players, F2P are kinda "just there" like in every gacha model. If they do not have the money stream, the game is deemed pointless.
 
Cokesouls

Cokesouls

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,350
Nirolak said:
So far, basically all the other EU countries that have weighed in, including the biggest markets, have said they're legal, so this looks like it will mostly end with less games in Belgium.
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And just completely preventing a game from being available in a country is not the answer at all.
 
MegaXZero

MegaXZero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jun 21, 2018
5,079
Yeah unless USA and Japan decide to ban lootboxes (they won't), then the only casualty of this lootbox war will be the players of the few countries banning them, while the anti-lootbox people celebrate their "victories".
 
Ge0force

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
Well, at least our government tried. This will hurt SE more than Belgian gamers, which have plenty of other games to buy/play.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Sheepinator said:
What does that mean? What, the industry should stop doing things that have been legal because... ?
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The industry dragged its heels kicking and screaming to absolutely any self-reflection around paid RNG that it brought about the whole globe doing investigations/inquiries and is ultimately going to end up with a fragmented WW market. All in the pursuit of getting filthy amounts of money off people well above any $60 entry point.

Self-reflection would be attempting to do things to stem the tide of concern such as ALL games with known drop rates, warning messages/links to gambling awareness, possibly spending caps built in, parental controls above an beyond just relying on Sony/MS and possibly the ESRB/PEGI long before now introducing another sticker/label for MTs. ESRB and PEGI outright refused to do fuck all because they're in the pockets of the industry. So the self-regulating mechanisms did fuck all the stem the tide of Governments looking into consumer complaints.

Just two nights ago Fornite made it onto Watchdog in the UK because of kids yet again running up bills of thousands of £. Parents are responsible for their own kids/CCs, but as always the industry slips and slides around not wanting to educate buyers properly/make everyone aware of their uncapped paid RNG/MT mania.

Not many other places in life can you literally spam a buy button to spend hundreds under a minute, or within a few minutes.
 
Sheepinator

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,051
Audioboxer said:
The industry dragged its heels kicking and screaming to absolutely any self-reflection around paid RNG that it brought about the whole globe doing investigations/inquiries and is ultimately going to end up with a fragmented WW market. All in the pursuit of getting filthy amounts of money off people well above any $60 entry point.

Self-reflection would be attempting to do things to stem the tide of concern such as ALL games with known drop rates, warning messages/links to gambling awareness, possibly spending caps built in, parental controls above an beyond just relying on Sony/MS and possibly the ESRB/PEGI long before now introducing another sticker/label for MTs.

Just two nights ago Fornite made it onto Watchdog in the UK because of kids yet again running up bills of thousands of £. Parents are responsible for their own kids/CCs, but as always the industry slips and slides around not wanting to educate buyers properly/make everyone aware of their uncapped paid RNG mania.
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So basically you expect game publishers to self-regulate to standards above and beyond countless other industries.

Watchdog you say. I see the blurb is about "parents who didn't realise their children could buy in-game purchases, without parental consent". In 2018. Never mind that was an issue on iOS games like a decade ago. Where is common sense? I'm not sure about other platforms, but I know on PSN a child account can't add money to wallet and by default can't spend a cent. If the parent set up their little kid with an adult account and also gave them access to a credit card with thousands of dollars, and didn't watch their kid... where the hell does personal responsibility start there?
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Sheepinator said:
So basically you expect game publishers to self-regulate to standards above and beyond countless other industries.

Watchdog you say. I see the blurb is about "parents who didn't realise their children could buy in-game purchases, without parental consent". In 2018. Never mind that was an issue on iOS games like a decade ago. Where is common sense? I'm not sure about other platforms, but I know on PSN a child account can't add money to wallet and by default can't spend a cent. If the parent set up their little kid with an adult account and also gave them access to a credit card with thousands of dollars, and didn't watch their kid... where the hell does personal responsibility start there?
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I don't expect anything. I simply stated why this is happening and like it or not it's off the industries own ass because it brought the heat on itself. ESRB/PEGI originally came about as a self-regulatory method to stop too much Government intervention around violence/sex in video games.

With paid RNG and hysterical MTs littered through games with uncapped spending amounts/no displayed winning odds (in most games), it may well be the case this industry had to self-regulate just a little better to stop many Governments saying this is turning into some sort of feeding frenzy.

Regulation often comes about to try and stop stupid people from "hurting" themselves. Whether it be gambling or it be lacking information/education. The question always starts with how much effort did the provider put in to try and help the consumer from hurting themselves.

In very few other industries do I see as much of a resistance to any sort of progress/regulation than the games industry. I put that down to out of control fandoms where you cannot say a single thing about a specified company without some gamers getting their jimmies rustled.
 
Illusion

Illusion

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,407
At least their not telling their players to overturn Belgium's laws. Or being pieces of shit like EA and trying to fight in court to prove loot boxes aren't gambling.

I hope more countries follow soon.
 
Sheepinator

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,051
Illusion said:
At least their not telling their players to overturn Belgium's laws. Or being pieces of shit like EA and trying to fight in court to prove loot boxes aren't gambling.

I hope more countries follow soon.
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Are you referring to 2K's statement? Because that's not at all what they actually said.

https://www.2k.com/myteaminfo/be/

It's interesting that challenging government over-reach is "being a piece of shit". I wonder if you'll think the same if the govt ever does something that makes your life or your finances harder.
 
DevilMayGuy

DevilMayGuy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,579
Texas
Yeah this seemed inevitable. Rather than take loot boxes out, they're just going to skip the few, small markets that have made them illegal. Until other markets put similar restrictions in place, it's going to result in less games.
 
Ghostsonplanets

Ghostsonplanets

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,499
Ge0force said:
Well, at least our government tried. This will hurt SE more than Belgian gamers, which have plenty of other games to buy/play.
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This will not hurt SE. Even if EU as a whole ban lootbox/gacha, if Japan and US continue to be ok with them, nothing changes. EU is nearly irrelevant to gacha games as whole in terms of revenue.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Ghostsonplanets said:
This will not hurt SE. Even if EU as a whole ban lootbox/gacha, if Japan and US continue to be ok with them, nothing changes. EU is nearly irrelevant to gacha games as whole in terms of revenue.
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True for these kinds of RPGs, but Ultimate Team is EA's cash-cow in Europe. At least with FIFA. I guess NBA might be mostly American.

It should come as no surprise EA scrambling to now disclose winning odds for Ultimate Team, but of course it had to have the usual EA slimeyness of just declaring all the cards anyone wants as "less than 1%". Rather than specific odds. Quite a large difference between 0.9% and 0.015%.

Anyone know the status of UT in Belgium? I haven't read it has been removed.
 
Skyfireblaze

Skyfireblaze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,257
Maybe I'm missing something here, I'm not from Belgium but will they actively IP-block players? If not one could simply grab the latest .apk for Android or make an Apple account from another region.
 
Sheepinator

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,051
Audioboxer said:
True for these kinds of RPGs, but Ultimate Team is EA's cash-cow in Europe. At least with FIFA. I guess NBA might be mostly American.

It should come as no surprise EA scrambling to now disclose winning odds for Ultimate Team, but of course it had to have the usual EA slimeyness of just declaring all the cards anyone wants as "less than 1%". Rather than specific odds. Quite a large difference between 0.9% and 0.015%.

Anyone know the status of UT in Belgium? I haven't read it has been removed.
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You want them to self-regulate, and when they do, which they don't have to, you still attack them. I bet they could bend over backwards to do everything you could possibly ask, and you'd still attack them.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Sheepinator said:
You want them to self-regulate, and when they do, which they don't have to, you still attack them. I bet they could bend over backwards to do everything you could possibly ask, and you'd still attack them.
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Because this attempt at self-regulating wasn't sufficient for me. When I want winning odds displayed, I want accurate odds. Not obfuscation. Not much to ask.

A feared concern with digital drop rates rather than say a pack of cards which is static, is the potential for companies to change odds, pity timers or other systems. Static odds stop any of that meddling.

The house shouldn't be able to meddle with the winning odds and the house should have to display accurate odds, not leave people guessing.

That's a pro-consumer system which still involves gambling/paid chance, but please, tell me how I'm being totally unfair towards EA.
 
Sheepinator

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,051
Audioboxer said:
Because this attempt at self-regulating wasn't sufficient for me. When I want winning odds displayed, I want accurate odds. Not obfuscation. Not much to ask.

A feared concern with digital drop rates rather than say a pack of cards which is static, is the potential for companies to change odds, pity timers or other systems. Static odds stop any of that meddling.

The house shouldn't be able to meddle with the winning odds and the house should have to display accurate odds, not leave people guessing.

That's a pro-consumer system which still involves gambling/paid chance, but please, tell me how I'm being totally unfair towards EA.
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Do you even buy or play FIFA? Just curious, since you say that level of self-regulation wasn't enough for you.

Citations needed for these supposed examples of drop rates being manipulated.

I notice you totally dodged my question about where personal responsibility starts in post 33.
 
Dr. Mario

Dr. Mario

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,891
Netherlands
Sheepinator said:
As Square says, the law is uncertain in Belgium. What happened was the Belgian Gaming Commission decided based on a small study which may or may not have been handled well, that lootboxes apply to an existing 1999 law. Some publishers turned off purchases there, figuring that was the quick and easy solution. EA seems to be fighting it, as they should, since currently it looks like government over-reach. It needs to be tested in court and either become legal precedent or get ignored.

Now instead of simply ignoring a lootbox, nobody there even has the option to play the game. That doesn't sound like a win to me.
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A commission doing the one job they were instated to do is not government over reach.
 
Kouriozan

Kouriozan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,144
Most mobile games (and AAA) to be illegal in Belgium soon?
Honestly it should have been an EU wide decision, suck that one country has to suffer alone.

I heard Mobius Final Fantasy was also affected.
 
Ocean

Ocean

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,692
If you don't like a business model, don't support it. No need to ban it, removing choice for adults who are able to make this kind of decision for themselves.

I won't spend money on any service where there isn't transparency about what I'll get in return. Give me the probability distribution for winning, the way casinos and lotteries are obligated to. Otherwise I'll just not buy in. That simple. If somebody doesn't mind paying money on a blind gamble, that's ok too. It's their money.

No need to outlaw it, it just takes adults making reasonable choices.
 
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