Square-Enix just pulled a "Han shot first" in the Final Fantasy VII Remake / Spoilers.

Merc_ · Mar 2, 2020

ZeoVGM said:
The player knowing they didn't do it changes that.

For the third time: there is no reason to change this. If you can think of a valid reason, I honestly want to hear it.

I guess we're just going to have to disagree on that because it doesn't as far as I'm concerned.

As far as I've seen it's going to play into Shinra's framing of avalanche for the normal citizens and possibly drumming up support for another war. Beyond that, I've no clue since we haven't seen what else they're going to do with it.

Deleted member 925 · Mar 2, 2020

KernelC said:
I feel like a lot of people online really want to be angry or dislike the game. Like, more than other games but they have less to work with so they are pulling straws

I hate how people say this to try and dismiss criticism. Sorry, but that doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of things that are falling flat for those people that have played the demo. The people who are upset are long time fans of the game, who grew up on it. I think they're in their right to complain or praise it. Don't just hand wave how people feel because you want to stan.

I played the game when I was 13 years old and got a PlayStation just to experience 7. I was always skeptical given Square's poor track record of FF7 compilation choices.

I've also had a problem with Square Enix the past 5 years or so, I just don't care for their narratives anymore. So I knew I was going to struggle with some changes made. But the changes to the music, which are not for the better and decrease the impact of the original score, to the clunky battle system... I'm just not feeling it. And I have every right to say so. Just as you have every right to praise what you've seen or played.

trikster40 · Mar 2, 2020

Did it really Fitz out? Cloud set the timer, then before he started the countdown, the robot attacked. After they beat it, it went haywire and shot up the place which caused some debris to fall on the bomb and start the countdown. The bomb still blew it up. If it didn't, I missed something. I just finished with the demo a couple of hours ago.

Bundy · Mar 2, 2020

Kakihara said:
So I know its pretty crazy to make a own thread about this, but I just played the demo and this made my blood pumping. I have to adress this.

Cloud and Barret set up the bomb in the first reactor. As soon as the counter runs down, the bomb just gets "kaput" and radiates some smoke. Nothing more, no explosion. Then Heidegger orders shinras robot army to go berserk and just shoot up the whole reactor so that it explodes.

What does that mean? That just f***** means that our noble terror heroes didn't kill all these people in the first reactor explosion. No it was shinra! The bad guys! Cloud and his crew don't have any blood on their hands. They think they have blood on their hands, but there will come some stupid story point about, how bad shinra is and they exploded the reactor to find an enemy for midgar population. Its just the same as "Han shot first". -> No no no, the bad space pirate smuggler didn't kill greedo coldblooded, he just killed greedo because he first shot at Han Solo.

WTF. This is bullshit. This is typical disney bullshit. I hate this. If this is a sign that all this stuff which doens't flow well today will just get eliminated in the Remake, I am not interested in it. This is a joke and just as bad as the star wars special editions. F* Square Enix.

(I know it just a game and I am gonna play it anyway, but seriously this is some grad a bulls***. Its this disneyfication of everything now.)

EDIT: Just to be clear: I didn't want the come of as a hurt, rambling fanboy. (Maybe a little bit to full the discussion.) Tomorrow is another day and everything is gonna still be the same. But I just love it, that there is place where you can be passionate about your "blip and blop games" hobby.
EDIT2: The swear words a censored, because as far as I can tell, there are a lot of american people on here and I am not sure, if its okay for them, if I go on full curse mode...

If true, it's actually a good change. And btw. again, this is a full on remake. They already said they will change and add a lot of stuff. Deal with it ;P

Solobbos · Mar 2, 2020

I'm way more mad that they removed the bomb priming sound effect. It's in the top 5 video game sounds of all time.

Vagrant717 · Mar 2, 2020

Eeyore said:
Hmm, it's an interesting read of events that the company that employed both Gast and Hojo who were directly responsible for the birth of Sephiroth are the saviors of anything when they caused the issues in the first place between that and their mako reactors. By interesting I mean disingenuous at best :).

I'm not saying that Shinra is the bastion of good. I'm saying that their actions in the end helped saved the world whether you like it or not.

Also, it's kind of silly to paint Professor Gast in the same light as Hojo. Gast left the project once he realized that he made a terrible mistake and found out that Jenova wasn't really an Ancient. He also tried to save Aerith and her mom from horrible experiments.

Deleted member 27471 · Mar 2, 2020

Merc_ said:
I guess we're just going to have to disagree on that because it doesn't as far as I'm concerned.

As far as I've seen it's going to play into Shinra's framing of avalanche for the normal citizens and possibly drumming up support for another war. Beyond that, I've no clue since we haven't seen what else they're going to do with it.

Didn't they blame the destruction of sector 7 on avalanche? There was also the mention of Jesse claiming that the bomb wasn't supposed to be as destructive in the original. Thought that was always alluded to, just made more obvious now.

Anyways, I'm sure the reason will be seen with the full game. There's obviously more story elements going on here.

Hzsn724 · Mar 2, 2020

No. It's already known from the og game that Jesse can't make bombs right or really handle any of this tech, she even says in 7th Heaven that she put more punch in that bomb than she remembers..

So, i always wondered if Avalanche did fail and if Shinra nuked it to make them out to be the bad guys as they did..Later in the game.... don't want to spoil.......

It's established in the og game that Shinra doesn't care about it's citizens or the planet. This is just a little more frosting on that cake.

The plot device to "break an egg to make an omelette" has been done to death today and I like that they answer that question I've had for decades.

Swift_Gamer · Mar 2, 2020

I'm honestly baffled to see people defending shinra.

RagnarokX · Mar 2, 2020

Vagrant717 said:
I'm not saying that Shinra is the bastion of good. I'm saying that their actions in the end helped saved the world whether you like it or not.

Also, it's kind of silly to paint Professor Gast in the same light as Hojo. Gast left the project once he realized that he made a terrible mistake and found out that Jenova wasn't really an Ancient. He also tried to save Aerith and her mom from horrible experiments.

Gast didn't just help Aerith and Ifalna. He's Aerith's biological father.

Jimmypython · Mar 2, 2020

I think it's a good change. The heroes still think they did it and got what they wanted (nothing changed really for them). Think about it, they went in fully intending to blow everything up and If the bomb didn't go off they would do it again anyway.
This change made Shinra extra evil which I think is a good thing.

Vagrant717 · Mar 2, 2020

RagnarokX said:
Gast didn't just help Aerith and Ifalna. He's Aerith's biological father.

Good point.

Eeyore · Mar 2, 2020

Vagrant717 said:
I'm not saying that Shinra is the bastion of good. I'm saying that their actions in the end helped saved the world whether you like it or not.

Also, it's kind of silly to paint Professor Gast in the same light as Hojo. Gast left the project once he realized that he made a terrible mistake and found out that Jenova wasn't really an Ancient. He also tried to save Aerith and her mom from horrible experiments.

It's a real head scratcher to state that without giving context. They are shown to be an immoral company that only does things for themselves. This is like commending Donald Trump for giving a million dollars to Hurricane relief without a qualifier.

Gast had no issue doing what he did until he fell in love with Aerith's mother as far as I understand it. He's basically the Jurassic Park scientists in a nutshell.

Yeah Hojo is worse but Hojo is probably the worst person in the game. It's not saying much.

Deleted member 21411 · Mar 2, 2020

Honestly it makes alot of sense to me. It feels very shinra and Barret is so in over his head he doesn't even notice that wasn't intentional. It's pure emotion

Nanashrew · Mar 2, 2020

Merc_ said:
Not for me when the character rationalize it away anyway. They're clearly willing to see those people as acceptable losses.

Of course the characters are going to accept it, they have no idea of the events that occurred when they weren't in the room. This is normal for storytelling. But the viewer knows differently and leaves open the possibility to reveal to the characters much later in the story of what happened on that horrific day. This can cause a change in story and character development. It would be a relief for the characters to know that they were not at all responsible.

Arthoneceron · Mar 2, 2020

ShinRa: "Maclunkey!"

newmoneytrash · Mar 2, 2020

Eeyore said:
Shinra didn't do it to save anyone but themselves. Commending them is legitimately terrible.

they're not being commended they're being recognised. their motives don't detract from their actions

Crossing Eden · Mar 2, 2020

Merc_ said:
Not for me when the character rationalize it away anyway. They're clearly willing to see those people as acceptable losses.

Only Barret rationalizes it.

Eeyore · Mar 2, 2020

newmoneytrash said:
they're not being commended they're being recognised. their motives don't detract from their actions

Agree to disagree. Acting out of self preservation after being a soulless murdering corporation the entire game absolutely does detract from their actions.

Vagrant717 · Mar 2, 2020

Eeyore said:
They are shown to be an immoral company that only does things for themselves

Please point out where I said that they weren't. It doesn't change the fact that their actions helped saved the world, selfish or not.

Eeyore said:
Yeah Hojo is worse but Hojo is probably the worst person in the game. It's not saying much.

And yet you tried paint him and Gast in the same light which is ridiculous.

SolVanderlyn · Mar 2, 2020

Solobbos said:
I'm way more mad that they removed the bomb priming sound effect. It's in the top 5 video game sounds of all time.

I knew something was off!

trikster40 said:
Did it really Fitz out? Cloud set the timer, then before he started the countdown, the robot attacked. After they beat it, it went haywire and shot up the place which caused some debris to fall on the bomb and start the countdown. The bomb still blew it up. If it didn't, I missed something. I just finished with the demo a couple of hours ago.

I got this impression too. If anything the Guard Scorpion screwed it up because of how intense that fight was.

I still think the No. 5 Reactor bomb will go off for real, mitigating this non-issue entirely. It also paints Shinra in a more villainous light, and it's not extraneous, either, as they already do something worse by making the plate fall later on. Combining those two events helps to show their increasing desperation.

Conal · Mar 2, 2020

"Sir, we need to extinguish the core now or risk a larger explosion"
"No, stand down."
"NANI?"
"All according to keikaku"

There, best of both worlds.

Akainu · Mar 2, 2020

Grahf said:
So now they're not just terrorists anymore but also incompetent ones.

Their hideout is in a pinball machine.

Eeyore · Mar 2, 2020

Vagrant717 said:
Please point out where I said that they weren't. It doesn't change the fact that their actions helped saved the world, selfish or not.

My point throughout this reply chain has been that without putting it in the proper context it becomes misleading.

Vagrant717 said:
And yet you tried paint him and Gast in the same light which is ridiculous.

I'll concede I could have phrased the language around Gast better.

However, it is so interesting that you are so stringent on this point but cannot understand why I'm adamant that Shinra should not get any credit whatsoever on helping to fix the mess they started themselves. I feel like I'm talking to Ted Faro or something.

newmoneytrash · Mar 2, 2020

i'm just glad we're back at a point as a community where we can argue about final fantasy vii again

Deleted member 12867 · Mar 2, 2020

Yeah it bugged me too. Not enough to skip it tho.

Hikari · Mar 2, 2020

Or MAYBE Shinra blew it up to frame Avalanche as even bigger terrorists than they already are? How on earth does this even change anything from the original. Good god... OP your thread is embarrassing.

Kevers · Mar 2, 2020

I couldn't possibly give a shit. The same thing happens in the end with it blowing up and Avalanche taking the blame.

Mechaplum · Mar 2, 2020

Thought it was a pretty neat development, as one who didn't play the old game. A bit weird to get hung up on it imo...

Hikari · Mar 2, 2020

KernelC said:
I feel like a lot of people online really want to be angry or dislike the game. Like, more than other games but they have less to work with so they are pulling straws

Same here, honestly. So many people just want to hate the remake.

Vagrant717 · Mar 2, 2020

Eeyore said:
My point throughout this reply chain has been that without putting it in the proper context it becomes misleading.

I'll concede I could have phrased the language around Gast better.

However, it is so interesting that you are so stringent on this point but cannot understand why I'm adamant that Shinra should not get any credit whatsoever on helping to fix the mess they started themselves. I feel like I'm talking to Ted Faro or something.

And my point is that the game is full of shades of gray.

Avalanche, despite being the heroes, are responsible for the deaths of innocent civilians.
Shinra, despite being the evil company, helped save the world from meteor and settlements from Weapon rampages.

You keep trying to make it seem like I said Shinra are bastions of goodwill that never did anything wrong, and I never said any of those things.

Jotakori · Mar 2, 2020

I admit that scene really threw me off. I'm not especially a fan of it as I feel it changes the situational context and alters the player's perception of the characters -- it quite obviously makes them more sympathetic and defangs their intentions quite a bit by relieving them of their responsibility, but I can understand why the change was made and I don't feel too especially upset by it I guess. I mean, I find the change unfortunate because I think the original implications were more interesting, so I'm a little disappointed admittedly, but I don't think it's going to ultimately change much in the grand scheme of the story.

It's pretty clear they're going at the angle of playing up Shinra's wretchedness and manipulation; having them make AVALANCHE out to be the bad guys in cahoots with Wutai as a means to both get rid of AVALANCHE and progress their schemes against the other country. They're pushing to give Shinra a more involved and villainous role and also increasing Wutai's importance probably for Yuffie's plot later, what with her likely no longer being optional.
With the added benefit, of course, being that they can more clearly paint Good vs Evil in the story and lesson the whole eco-terrorists angle in a post 911 world.

I don't think those are bad story reasons to make the change, and that they'll ultimately lead up to the same destination, just different and with slightly different implications and a little less grey. I'm a bit :/ about it but mostly just 'oh well' and hoping it purposely plays out well with the rest of the plot.

zombiejames · Mar 2, 2020

I don't like the sound of that change at all...

LonestarZues · Mar 2, 2020

I love the original game and it's in my top 5 games of all time, but I'm fine with the change. Loved the demo and can't wait to play the full game next month.

RROCKMAN · Mar 2, 2020

I got there

And to be honest I don't think it matters, especially since they still believe that they did it. They will still hear the news, and still learn about the deaths they thought caused.

Yarbskoo · Mar 2, 2020

This is more like if Han shot first and missed, but then Boba Fett killed Greedo with a poison dart to make everyone think Han killed him.

I'm sure that'll be in the next release.

Kewlmyc · Mar 2, 2020

It could be deciphered that the bomb was never supposed to blow up the ENTIRE reactor. In the original, Jessie comments that the bomb shouldn't have caused that big of an explosion. Though she isn't really that upset that it caused such a big explosion.

Hace · Mar 2, 2020

It's pretty lame tbh

Yarbskoo · Mar 2, 2020

The worst part is Heidegger pulling out his smartphone to trigger the self destruct.

Disclaimer · Mar 2, 2020

The "change" is perfectly faithful to Shinra's modus operandi in the original game, as well as implied in the original itself, through both Jessie's dialogue and President Shinra's.

This whole nothingburger is more Square Enix clarifying their intent than retconning the situation to "sanitize ambiguity."

Barret's AVALANCHE was always incompetent -- woefully out of their depth against an opponent who was multiple steps ahead. The game's upfront about this, and AVALANCHE's members even admit as much.

They're still going to believe they're responsible. The members are still going to lament their actions before the plate comes down. The player being privy that it was Shinra isn't going to remove the weight of their guilt and self-doubt; it'll add to the tragedy.

picorin81 · Mar 2, 2020

Square: -Era please enjoy the game
Era: -Nah

RROCKMAN · Mar 2, 2020

Disclaimer said:
The "change" is perfectly faithful to Shinra's modus operandi in the original game, as well as implied in the original itself, through both Jessie's dialogue and President Shinra's.

This whole nothingburger is more Square Enix clarifying their intent than retconning the situation to "sanitize ambiguity."

Barret's AVALANCHE was always incompetent -- woefully out of their depth against an opponent who was multiple steps ahead. The game's upfront about this, and AVALANCHE's members even admit as much.

They're still going to believe they're responsible. The members are still going to lament their actions before the plate comes down. The player being privy that it was Shinra isn't going to remove the weight of their guilt and self-doubt; it'll add to the tragedy.

Thank you for saying it much better than I did

Yarbskoo · Mar 2, 2020

Disclaimer said:
The "change" is perfectly faithful to Shinra's modus operandi in the original game, as well as implied in the original itself, through both Jessie's dialogue and President Shinra's.

This whole nothingburger is more Square Enix clarifying their intent than retconning the situation to "sanitize ambiguity."

Barret's AVALANCHE was always incompetent -- woefully out of their depth against an opponent who was multiple steps ahead. The game's upfront about this, and AVALANCHE's members even admit as much.

They're still going to believe they're responsible. The members are still going to lament their actions before the plate comes down. The player being privy that it was Shinra isn't going to remove the weight of their guilt and self-doubt; it'll add to the tragedy.

Ehh, it feels unnecessary to me. A first time player isn't going to know who these people are or what they're talking about, and there's really nothing meaningful added to the scene even if you do know what's happening. Putting those reveals in later would have more impact.

greenbird · Mar 2, 2020

Disclaimer said:
The "change" is perfectly faithful to Shinra's modus operandi in the original game, as well as implied in the original itself, through both Jessie's dialogue and President Shinra's.

This whole nothingburger is more Square Enix clarifying their intent than retconning the situation to "sanitize ambiguity."

Barret's AVALANCHE was always incompetent -- woefully out of their depth against an opponent who was multiple steps ahead. The game's upfront about this, and AVALANCHE's members even admit as much.

They're still going to believe they're responsible. The members are still going to lament their actions before the plate comes down. The player being privy that it was Shinra isn't going to remove the weight of their guilt and self-doubt; it'll add to the tragedy.

I think this could very likely be the case. I checked out the wiki to remember some of the details, and this is listed under the Sector 5 reactor.

Although the reactor explodes, it is later seen in use powering the Sister Ray cannon, indicating Shinra repaired the damage, unlike the Sector 1 Reactor, which was utterly destroyed and never repaired. This is odd, given that Jessie said she would make her next bomb even more powerful than the one that destroyed the Sector 1 Reactor, but is supported by the visibly smaller explosion that results. Given that Shinra had enough foreknowledge to set an ambush, it's possible the explosion was mitigated by them in some way.

Jessie trying to make the bomb more powerful, but resulting in a weaker explosion could easily indicate that Shinra helped along the first reactor's destruction.

Death Penalty · Mar 2, 2020

Disclaimer said:
The "change" is perfectly faithful to Shinra's modus operandi in the original game, as well as implied in the original itself, through both Jessie's dialogue and President Shinra's.

This whole nothingburger is more Square Enix clarifying their intent than retconning the situation to "sanitize ambiguity."

Barret's AVALANCHE was always incompetent -- woefully out of their depth against an opponent who was multiple steps ahead. The game's upfront about this, and AVALANCHE's members even admit as much.

They're still going to believe they're responsible. The members are still going to lament their actions before the plate comes down. The player being privy that it was Shinra isn't going to remove the weight of their guilt and self-doubt; it'll add to the tragedy.

Except in the original, the deaths were their fault and now they aren't, which makes AVALANCHE as an organization far less complex and the struggle against Shinra far more black and white, regardless of what the members think.

Weltall Zero · Mar 2, 2020

Lord Vatek said:
Moral ambiguity is only useful if they actually do anything meaningful with it. They don't. Ever.

After about two hours the story shifts to focus on an insane asshole who wants to destroy the world for his alien mother.

Moral ambiguity is useful on its own. If the story spells out every moral consequence and renders judgement on every single action then the reader doesn't have to think about anything on their own. Leaving things for the reader to ponder is, like, the entire point of ambiguity. The notion that ambiguity is only useful if the story gives it resolution is entirely backwards to me.

KernelC · Mar 2, 2020

kitchenmotors said:
I hate how people say this to try and dismiss criticism. Sorry, but that doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of things that are falling flat for those people that have played the demo. The people who are upset are long time fans of the game, who grew up on it. I think they're in their right to complain or praise it. Don't just hand wave how people feel because you want to stan.

I played the game when I was 13 years old and got a PlayStation just to experience 7. I was always skeptical given Square's poor track record of FF7 compilation choices.

I've also had a problem with Square Enix the past 5 years or so, I just don't care for their narratives anymore. So I knew I was going to struggle with some changes made. But the changes to the music, which are not for the better and decrease the impact of the original score, to the clunky battle system... I'm just not feeling it. And I have every right to say so. Just as you have every right to praise what you've seen or played.

This thread isnt criticism. It is literally bullshit, doesnt affect the story at all, nor the gameplay

Qvoth · Mar 2, 2020

been too long since i last watched my bro's playthrough so i didn't know about any of this in the original
a welcome change imo

Disclaimer · Mar 2, 2020

Yarbskoo said:
Ehh, it feels unnecessary to me. A first time player isn't going to know who these people are or what they're talking about, and there's really nothing meaningful added to the scene even if you do know what's happening. Putting those reveals in later would have more impact.

I don't disagree that the scene itself isn't very good, and could've been handled better, while still clarifying the situation more than the original.

greenbird said:
Jessie trying to make the bomb more powerful, but resulting in a weaker explosion could easily indicate that Shinra helped along the first reactor's destruction.

Yep. Jessie is literally someone trying to learn how to make these off of the internet. She's not an expert. None of the AVALANCE members are. They're sloppy amateurs winging it in a desperate fight against the embodiment of capitalism -- a corporation that's all but all-knowing and all-powerful.

AVALANCHE hires a (perceived) professional like Cloud as muscle in preparation for the "big jobs" of the Reactors because they themselves aren't equipped to deal with Shinra's forces.

Death Penalty said:
Except in the original, the deaths were their fault and now they aren't, which makes AVALANCHE as an organization far less complex and the struggle against Shinra far more black and white, regardless of what the members think.

Shinra was always morally bankrupt. Shinra was always hyper-cynical and Machiavellian. It is implied that Shinra did this very thing in the original, just like they crushed Sector 7. AVALANCHE was always a convenient scapegoat for them to use to cement their power.

AVALANCHE is still culpable for their methods. Their bomb would've still disabled disabled power to a whole sector, with all the human cost that entails. They're still killing dozens of security guards, whether directly (themselves) or indirectly (by knocking them unconscious within a reactor set to explode). They aren't washed clean by this change.

The fundamental responsibility for all the populace's woes in Midgar and elsewhere, for AVALANCHE's perceived necessity, still lays and always has laid at Shinra's feet, though.

mordecaii83 · Mar 2, 2020

Disclaimer said:
The "change" is perfectly faithful to Shinra's modus operandi in the original game, as well as implied in the original itself, through both Jessie's dialogue and President Shinra's.

This whole nothingburger is more Square Enix clarifying their intent than retconning the situation to "sanitize ambiguity."

Barret's AVALANCHE was always incompetent -- woefully out of their depth against an opponent who was multiple steps ahead. The game's upfront about this, and AVALANCHE's members even admit as much.

They're still going to believe they're responsible. The members are still going to lament their actions before the plate comes down. The player being privy that it was Shinra isn't going to remove the weight of their guilt and self-doubt; it'll add to the tragedy.

Yeah this is where I'm at, the original's translation was so poor that this seems more like clarifying original intent rather than an actual change. And even if it is a change, it's such a small one that nothing of importance is really any different.

Disclaimer said:
I don't disagree that the scene itself isn't very good, and could've been handled better, while still clarifying the situation more than the original.

Yep. Jessie is literally someone trying to learn how to make these off of the internet. She's not an expert. None of the AVALANCE members are. They're sloppy amateurs winging it in a desperate fight against the embodiment of capitalism -- a corporation that's all but all-knowing and all-powerful.

AVALANCHE hires a (perceived) professional like Cloud as muscle in preparation for the "big jobs" of the Reactors because they themselves aren't equipped to deal with Shinra's forces.

Shinra was always morally bankrupt. Shinra was always hyper-cynical and Machiavellian. It is implied that Shinra did this very thing in the original, just like they crushed Sector 7. AVALANCHE was always a convenient scapegoat for them to use to cement their power.

AVALANCHE is still culpable for their methods. Their bomb would've still disabled disabled power to a whole sector, with all the human cost that entails. They're still killing dozens of security guards, whether directly (themselves) or indirectly (by knocking them unconscious within a reactor set to explode). They aren't washed clean by this change.

The fundamental responsibility for all the populace's woes in Midgar and elsewhere, for AVALANCHE's perceived necessity, still lays and always has laid at Shinra's feet, though.

Very nice job summing things up for everyone!

Square-Enix just pulled a "Han shot first" in the Final Fantasy VII Remake / Spoilers.

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