Mudd was time travelling and Discovery time travelled at the end of the 3rd last episode.
Mudd was time travelling and Discovery time travelled at the end of the 3rd last episode.
True though I meant like time traveled to some big event and met important historical people or something.
S1 + 2 are also enjoyable because some episodes are a weird limbo between TOS and what TNG would become.
Jeffrey Hunter was 39 when he filmed The Cage.
If you want a "jaw-alike" and age alike... Matt Bomer.
The Klingon were just hours away from destroying the Earth... but diplomacy prevailed!
Oh yeah... it seems weird that the 20% of Federation space that was occupied wasn't really touched on. I mean, I guess L'Rell might order everyone to withdraw to their existing borders so they can focus on rebuilding their society instead of trying to integrate it on a bunch of new world, or that negotiations over such are part of the implied cold war scenario in TOS, but... it does damper that mood of celebration a bit.
The only major gripe I had with that finale was the shot of the Klingon ships at the start and end of the episode. First they're just on the outside of the Sol system, then the episode goes by and then they're right at Earth. Then comes the end of the episode where Discovery goes from Mars to Neptune in a few seconds at impulse. That was the only thing that I really didn't like about the episode.
The thing I hate the most about early TNG is the uniforms they look terrible
oof. Also:
Well I didn't necessarily have an issue with the way they ended the war. In-universe the war didn't end quickly, it went on for 9 months and the Federation got its ass kicked. For us, while I always enjoy some nice space battles and whatnot I will say I kinda thought it was a good Star Trek ending. A diplomatic ending (well diplomatic when dealing with Klingons that is) really put them on the right course to lead into the Trek we all love I think.
Also, I made an error earlier. They went from Jupiter to Neptune in about 15 seconds while at impulse. I just found it odd that they would have the Klingons, who were just past Jupiter at the start of the episode crawl to Earth while in the same episode show that Discovery can effortlessly cover massive distances in seconsd.
Incidentally Jupiter to Neptune is on average approx 24.89 AU, or 3,722,670,000km. So Discovery was travelling at 248,178,000km/s or about 827 times the speed of light in that one scene, while travelling at impulse, lol. It was a continuous scene, so no room for a scene cut somewhere during the journey.
Also, I think this may have been our first time seeing signs of a full on colony on the moon, as seen in this shot:
All we got before this AFAIK was some dialogue from Riker in First Contact:
RIKER: Sure we do. It looks a lot different. There are fifty million people living on the moon in my time. You can see Tycho City, New Berlin, even Lake Armstrong on a day like this.
Stuff like this happens all the time. I recall one particular episode of The Expanse where they were "burning hard" and yet not slowing down, at all, according to the displays. When it cut to the outside shot they were indeed burning hard. It just the disconnect between different teams, and some people in charge of these things not knowing what implications there might be in a ship moving from Jupiter to Neptune in 15 seconds lol. It looks cool and 99+% of people won't notice or care.
All we need now is for someone to model the progression of the solar system and see that in the supposed year that the episode was set, Jupiter and Neptune were actually not aligned at all and were in fact on opposite sides of the sun.
Heh, I know. Just force of habit for me to point out things like that. I've spent many a year on sci-fi forums debating and calculating Star Trek :)
This is what the Sol system would look like today in 2256, around the time of the episode.
Disgusting continuity error, the planets aren't even aligned when approaching/departing Earth. Noobs :P
Nah man, don't you see the genius in it? I've plotted Discovery's course in that scene:
They obviously used Jupiter's gravity to slingshot, build up more speed and exit the Sol system at Neptune. Those genius motherfuckers!
:)
lol.Nah man, don't you see the genius in it? I've plotted Discovery's course in that scene:
They obviously used Jupiter's gravity to slingshot, build up more speed and exit the Sol system at Neptune. Those genius motherfuckers!
:)
2020 seems like the latest it could start to air but doubtful. That 2020 numbers comes from a Jason Issac tweet but he was likely messing around. They start filming this April but have been working on the season' story, scripts, etc as far back as the beginning of January. So we're more likely looking at early 2019. Very late 2018 at the earliest but likely beginning of 2019 given the level of CGI this show has.
Honestly it seemed like an allusion to how the first season was delayed quite extensively - ie, if you expect a date range of 2018-2019, they clearly it will be delayed to 2020.
I'm thoroughly surprised by this thread. I clicked on it expecting a shit storm of rage over the way the season ended. Me and the few people IRL I have spoken too thought the way the war ended was laughably awful. Like, I can't understand how anyone thought that was an acceptable plot.
If the federation had kept the detonator and told the Klingons to withdraw or else, then maybe it would have been convincing. But even then, the Klingons were in a position to take out Earth so not really at a disadvantage, and if it had made them back down it would only have lasted until they diffused the bomb on Kronos (whatever), after which they would have returned with a vengeance.
But giving the detonator to the Klingons?! WTF? "we could have blown up your planet but we didn't so please leave us alone" -Fuck off.
Why the hell would the klingons all unite behind the one outcast woman just because the federation gave her the power to blow up a planet? Would they have believed her threat to blow them up? It was such a crap bluff.
And even if the Klingons did go for it, the plot also requires for the federation to rely on this happening before giving up their advantage. How could anyone have believed this would work?
I honestly can't think of a less convincing plot in anything I've ever see, it's just completely stupid.
However, the acceptance in this thread is making me think I'm missing something. Am I?
If the federation had kept the detonator and told the Klingons to withdraw or else, then maybe it would have been convincing. But even then, the Klingons were in a position to take out Earth so not really at a disadvantage, and if it had made them back down it would only have lasted until they diffused the bomb on Kronos (whatever), after which they would have returned with a vengeance.
But giving the detonator to the Klingons?! WTF? "we could have blown up your planet but we didn't so please leave us alone" -Fuck off.
Why the hell would the klingons all unite behind the one outcast woman just because the federation gave her the power to blow up a planet? Would they have believed her threat to blow them up? It was such a crap bluff.
And even if the Klingons did go for it, the plot also requires for the federation to rely on this happening before giving up their advantage. How could anyone have believed this would work?
I honestly can't think of a less convincing plot in anything I've ever see, it's just completely stupid.
However, the acceptance in this thread is making me think I'm missing something. Am I?
I agree the final two were pretty terrible compared to the rest of the season, but I was so onboard with the the show after the Lorca reveal it didn't matter at the time.
I just wish they would have let Georgio rest. More evil Michelle Yeoh isn't a story im looking forward to.
I just wish they would have let Georgio rest. More evil Michelle Yeoh isn't a story im looking forward to.
It's funny because someone posted a video earlier about how the shuttle Burnham and Lorca took to get to the ISS Charon was actually one of the most accurately timed warp jumps in the history of Star Trek.
I don't think you're missing anything, I think it's just some people are willing to overlook that stuff and some people aren't. For what it's worth, I'm 100% in your camp.
EDIT: Actually there might be one thing, I've seen some people suggest that L'Rell wasn't really interested in the war to begin with and her ultimate goal is to unite the Klingon houses, which she could see wasn't happening because the war was actually splintering factions as opposed to uniting them. I don't really find this convincing based on what we saw in the show, but other people do.
Cloaking technology and not taking the fight to the Klingons and just waiting for them to attack.
Because number of species =/= territory, firepower, or population, and the Klingons have long been implied as equal or greater than the Federation on all those fronts. Plus in this instance they had cloaking tech that the Federation wasn't able to penetrate for a whole year, and a lack of consistent strategy to counter. That said, the exact nature and spread of the Klingon Empire has always been a little... vague at best. Like, outside of Kronos just how the empire is governed and actually works is a great big mystery. Sure there's colonies, but what about annexed territories? Vassalised subjects? Does the Klingon population breed like rabbits or does it just benefit from the warrior culture encouraging every able bodied citizen towards service? This series is the first time I think we've actually seen non-Klingons within the empire as presumed citizens, and that's still within the context of The First City.
I think the show is pretty clear about this. Her goal and even T'Kumva's goal was unification as a means of making the Klingon culture stronger and able to resist what they saw as an attack from the other. The war was always a means to that end. The war was never the ultimate goal or prime desire. War wasn't wanted for war's sake. It's just that war is the default method that was used by the Klingons due to their nature and history. Even Kol was basically using the war to reposition himself in terms of power and that's all he really cared about ultimately and used T'Kumva's followers to that end and gave the other Klingons are target to basically keep control. Even when told the Klingons were winning but even more fractured then before you could see L'Rell did not like that at all.
So given another method to unite the Klingons it makes sense for L'Rell to take it and use to her advantage. Even if that meant calling back all forces (they're suffering loses and losing resources as well). Holding an entire planet hostage is both in keeping with her House's actions as being spys and using subterfuge. It also is a huge show of force toward the other Houses that they have no choice but to accept or the heads of those Houses will actually die themselves. Having that threat come from a fellow Klingon makes it more acceptable to other Klingons then it coming from a human. This is why Michael ultimately goes to L'Rell. Her field is the study of alien races and how they think and act. That was established at the beginning of the series. So her I buy her realizing the hostage plan would only work coming from L'Rell and not her. So the ending and resolution makes sense. Having it end peacefully is pretty much the Star Trek way if possible.
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That's not so odd given the pacifist nature of the federation. It's kind of like Russia taking on the European Union. Sure the EU has more people, more money and a more advanced military, but organising that into a fighting force goes against their ideals (at least right now).
I found it more interesting that andorians and Vulcans were happy to supposedly surrender defence of their own planets for Earth.
And trill. I wonder when the Trill became part of the federation. Maybe someone more versed in Dax can get an answer.
You actually saw one getting tattooed. There's a pic in here of it somewhere.
The enterprise episode 'Judgement' deals with an annexed alien settlement and they are considered citizens of the empire.
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Judgment_(episode)
I think the only other place we see this is in Star Trek Online where the Orion's and others are apart of the Klingon faction. It make sense that Klingons would have their own allies or those they find useful enough to tolerate being around or people they've conquered over the generations.
...How did I forget that when I so often bring up that episode.
Still, it's definitely not a well developed corner of the franchise.
Beyond what JonnyDBrit wrote, it isn't like Star Trek has ever made that much sense when it comes to fleet size for an entity the size of the Federation. In TNG, 30 ships being destroyed by the Borg was considered a major impact to the fleet. Deep Space 9 inflated the numbers for the Dominion Way, which was better, but probably still way too small for what it should be. Discovery seems to have gone back to TNG numbers. Only a third of the fleet is destroyed, but that apparently leaves so few ships they can't even protect Earth from 4 apparently slow as shit Klingon vessels?
To be fair to Star Trek, most popular science fiction series suffer from the same issue. Going just by the Star Wars movies, you would think the Empire ruled the entire galaxy with 50 ships. Warhammer 40k is probably the only series that is somewhat accurate to the numbers that would be involved in warfare on a galactic scale.
I think if they had L'rell soften on the war stuff and started to discuss her ultimate goal of unification instead of literately telling Cornwell that the war ends with the annihilation of the federation, the ending would have been received better. They did a poor job of showing L'Rells motivations so her sudden switch to ending the war seemed kinda abrupt and without any reason.
This whole season always felt like it was two season long plot lines squeezed together to fit the 15 episode season. They could have easily done the war this season and the MU next, hopefully now that they are established they'll streamline the plots for season 2.
This whole season always felt like it was two season long plot lines squeezed together to fit the 15 episode season. They could have easily done the war this season and the MU next, hopefully now that they are established they'll streamline the plots for season 2.
Especially when the Andorians are more Warlike then humans you would think they would be the first into any conflict.
I could have read the map wrong but I think Earth was first in line when it came to the Klingon advance and Vulcan and Andor were after it which is why they were falling back to defend Earth. It would be the first to be hit.
Were they even defending Earth? Those 4 Klingon ships seemed to be moving with no opposition through the solar system.
WARNING: I have clearly thought way too much about this and if you want to dismiss this as the rantings of an obsessive person I am totally fine with that, and actually maybe that's for the best because clearly It Is A Television Show, I Should Really Just Relax. Maybe everything falls apart if you stare at it too long. But just in case someone finds this fun/interesting:
I think I can see the show wanting this to be the explanation for the Klingons' unlikely ceasefire, and I suppose the fact that we can discuss this option based on what the show has shown us means it didn't completely fail on this front. But for me, I just never found it convincing.
Part of the problem is that for the rest of the show, the Klingons are depicted as a massive force of destruction, and almost literally the only thing the 24 houses can agree on is that the Federation will destroy them if they don't destroy the Federation first. T'Kuvma's refrain of "remain Klingon" wasn't just about unification; it was about defending Klingon identity from what they saw as a Federation that would seduce with one hand and stab you in the back with another.
There are instances where we see the divisions in the Klingon empire, especially in the beginning with House Kol taking over the flagship. But then that part of the plot largely gets dropped until we return to it at the very end of the season. We also get very little indication that the other houses want unification, or that they would prioritize it over destroying the Federation. In fact, some of the things that happen early in the season can contradict this; in the first episode the other houses seem to fall in line behind T'Kuvma's "Make Qonos Great Again" banner, but that only seems to last long enough for Kol to steal his flagship and the rest of his followers.
In order for me to buy the chain of events that happens in the finale, I need a few things:
1) L'Rell needs to have a convincing argument for why she would want to end the war. The finale does try to address this; she's very gung ho about the Federation being destroyed right up until Burnham mentions that the houses are just as split as ever. I don't know that the show establishes why ending the war would suddenly be a better option, or how that would reunite the houses, but admittedly I'd have to go back and rewatch parts of the episode to day.
2) Michael needs to understand implicitly that L'Rell will not attack the Federation. In theory this would follow from #1 if it was established, so let's handwave it away and assume that's the case.
3) Everyone else on the Federation side needs to go along with this. Presumably we're supposed to believe this because of the I Am [strike]Spartacus[/strike] Starfleet moment on the bridge, which as I've said before feels like an ethical dilemma with an inevitable answer. Michael was always going to stick to principles; Cornwell was always going to back down. No real negotiation of the tradeoffs inherent ever happens, and thus no one ever has to make more than a token argument for why sticking to principles matters. So yeah, we can take this as given, but only because the show previously made it so by magic wand.
4) Everyone on the Klingon High Council needs to see L'Rell as a threat. This is more of a procedural thing than anything, but it is baffling that the entire council would see one member of a dead house show up with a tablet saying "PRESS TO ACTIVATE" and immediately go, oh fuck, that woman means to blow us all up. Pretend for the moment that the show had some extra shots of people checking for the existence of the bomb and blah blah blah and whatever (or, alternatively, pretend that the show fast forwarded through all this in the interests of time and because it felt it already explained this to the audience enough with Burnham v. Cornwell).
That still leaves a number of questions. Why doesn't someone immediately shoot and/or slice L'Rell? People mentioned Georgiou's bioprint being transferred to L'Rell as the reason, but the show really glosses over this when it needed to establish a) that the bioprint is a dead man's switch, and b) that L'Rell now has it. Something as simple as "The bomb is bioprinted to me, kill me and Qonos dies" would sufficed for both. But okay, assume this has already been established.
Why does the Klingon fleet suddenly turn back? Say that L'Rell manages to convince everyone that she's serious and will absolutely blow everyone up. How does everyone agree to her terms instantly? Didn't the show just establish that the Klingons are a hair's breadth away from fighting each other once they've broken the Federation? They can barely agree on means and ways of prosecuting the war. They all just decide that yup, it's time to turn tail and leave Earth alone? Not a single one of the houses has an objection? No one inside those houses sees an opportunity to seize on weakness, take control of the house, and finish the war themselves? I mean, maybe that's actually how things will play out in Season 2, since it seems like
L'Rell and Tyler will continue to be characters next season
Basically, I have to make a whole bunch of assumptions and take several shortcuts in order to arrive at "the Klingons retreated and the Federation was saved." I have to turn my brain off. And man, that's not a thing I really like doing with any show, let alone Star Trek.
The Breen fleet was destroyed doing so, which at least implies they tried to protect Earth.
Although I guess the Borg moved to Earth after defeating a fleet of 35 ships and all that was left to defend it was the Mars defense perimeter... which consisted of like 2 shuttle craft.
Although I guess the Borg moved to Earth after defeating a fleet of 35 ships and all that was left to defend it was the Mars defense perimeter... which consisted of like 2 shuttle craft.
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