This is a complete misread of what the film is telling the viewer. Luke didn't think anyone can "save" Kylo. When he says this, it's also a transition into handing Leia the falcon dice, which is a reference to Han.Luke's response to Leia "no one's ever really gone" is directly about Ben. Luke says he is not there to save Ben's soul because Luke recognizes that he can't be the one to do it. It has to be someone else. Luke was there to play the spoiler and prevent Ben from destroying Leia and Rey and the rest, and also to add fuel to the fires of conflict in Ben's mind.
Luke's response to Leia "no one's ever really gone" is directly about Ben. Luke says he is not there to save Ben's soul because Luke recognizes that he can't be the one to do it. It has to be someone else. Luke was there to play the spoiler and prevent Ben from destroying Leia and Rey and the rest, and also to add fuel to the fires of conflict in Ben's mind.
I don't think so eitherI still don't think Palpatine is going to be returning in a literal sense. I think his spirit might haunt the ruins of the Death Star (which would be admittedly creepy and interesting) or his 'return' will be some manner of flashback, like when Rey first picked up Luke's saber in TFA and heard Vader's breathing.
This is a complete misread of what the film is telling the viewer. Luke didn't think anyone can "save" Kylo. When he says this, it's also a transition into handing Leia the falcon dice, which is a reference to Han.
Luke already knows Ben is lost. Leia knows Ben is lost.
Luke tried to tell Rey this with his "this is not going to go the way you think", Rey didn't listen and failed. The only thing she accomplished was helping push Kylo further along his dark path (basically becoming Snoke/taking his place).
"No one's ever really gone" was not a reference to Ben's redemption. No part of Luke believes it because nothing in either film suggests it, quite the opposite actually. I took it to simply mean "there's good and bad in everyone, so a piece of Ben will always be there". We see shades of it when Kylo fails to kill Leia, for example. But that's a far cry from redemption.
And if JJ fully redeems him, it will have been the greatest mistake across any SW film since the Disney sale. There is literally no way to do this without uprooting the foundation of his character development built over the course of the two previous films.
yeah i do kinda wonder how Palps will fit in to all of this. I don't think it'll be just a spirit but i also don't think he'll be a main baddy. might be more of a hanibal lecter a la silence of the lambs kinda thing where he's just chlling in the death star remains, unable to leave, and has some sort of crucial info to give or something.
ok that would actually be pretty good haha. Imagine if they use that wording too. wew
I am on team Palps has been behind it all pulling the strings with FO and everything. The Phantom Menace!
"No one's ever really gone" was not a reference to Ben's redemption. No part of Luke believes it because nothing in either film suggests it, quite the opposite actually. I took it to simply mean "there's good and bad in everyone, so a piece of Ben will always be there". We see shades of it when Kylo fails to kill Leia, for example. But that's a far cry from redemption.
ALways wanted to know but what's the story behind this gif? Some impromptu dance party? Lol. Also Oscar is such a treasure, man. Glad JJ didn't kill him off in TFA.
ALways wanted to know but what's the story behind this gif? Some impromptu dance party? Lol. Also Oscar is such a treasure, man. Glad JJ didn't kill him off in TFA.
I don't understand, wasn't Star Wars dead?
His plan in the prequels involved being patient for decades, and even in the Sith in general waited a thousand years between the Old Republic and the prequels to take their revenge.That said, assuming he actually survived, his dormancy is also nonsensical.
Why would he lay around in wait for decades?
His plan in the prequels involved being patient for decades, and even in the Sith in general waited a thousand years between the Old Republic and the prequels to take their revenge.
True but he also had apprentices doing his bidding and he maintained the Sith edicts and fanned its flame.
The Sith have no presence in the sequel trilogy; neither Snoke or Kylo are Sith.
Who says he was dormant and waiting? He could be pulling the strings of the FO behind the scenes.
I guess but the notion seems tenuous. The idea that it was Palpatine the entire time just seems goofy to me.
Only because we didn't see him in TFA and TLJ. But look at the prequels. If we hadn't seen Darth Sidious in Episode I and Episode II, and if Senator Palpatine had a fake name and wasn't played by Ian McDiarmid, the sudden reveal in Episode III would have seemed out of nowhere too.
I'll just say that if Palpatine isn't back in some significant way (more than just a laughing holocron or some shit) then the Celebration reveal was a pretty bad misfire. Sets up expectations.
If Rey goes on a mission to destroy items that could bring back Palatine then...ugh....
This is a complete misread of what the film is telling the viewer. Luke was shown to be rooted in outdated thoughts based on his attachment to the old Jedi Order, and he believed Ben totally lost before the Yoda talk down which is the crux of the movies themes. Han died trying to save his son, and yet while he failed this doesn't mean that Ben is lost, and wouldn't want Leia to think that he is lost. Han's dice can work both as saying that Han isn't gone metaphorically, nor is his will to save his son. It's very important to note that after Kylo's failure to destroy the Resistance at the end of TLJ, he picks up Han's dice looking forlorn as he looks up to Rey in their force link and she closes the door on him. He reached the top and it hasn't given him satisfaction, but he has his father who he wants to hate but is left looking at his dice after his failure, his father the failure whose beloved even after he killed him.This is a complete misread of what the film is telling the viewer. Luke didn't think anyone can "save" Kylo. When he says this, it's also a transition into handing Leia the falcon dice, which is a reference to Han.
Luke already knows Ben is lost. Leia knows Ben is lost.
Luke tried to tell Rey this with his "this is not going to go the way you think", Rey didn't listen and failed. The only thing she accomplished was helping push Kylo further along his dark path (basically becoming Snoke/taking his place).
"No one's ever really gone" was not a reference to Ben's redemption. No part of Luke believes it because nothing in either film suggests it, quite the opposite actually. I took it to simply mean "there's good and bad in everyone, so a piece of Ben will always be there". We see shades of it when Kylo fails to kill Leia, for example. But that's a far cry from redemption.
And if JJ fully redeems him, it will have been the greatest mistake across any SW film since the Disney sale. There is literally no way to do this without uprooting the foundation of his character development built over the course of the two previous films.
No... That's not what Yoda's lesson is about, it's not about saving Ben at all. You weren't paying attention. Let's revisit:This is a complete misread of what the film is telling the viewer. Luke was shown to be rooted in outdated thoughts based on his attachment to the old Jedi Order, and he believed Ben totally lost before the Yoda talk down which is the crux of the movies themes. Han died trying to save his son, and yet while he failed this doesn't mean that Ben is lost, and wouldn't want Leia to think that he is lost. Han's dice can work both as saying that Han isn't gone metaphorically, nor is his will to save his son. It's very important to note that after Kylo's failure to destroy the Resistance at the end of TLJ, he picks up Han's dice looking forlorn as he looks up to Rey in their force link and she closes the door on him. He reached the top and it hasn't given him satisfaction, but he has his father who he wants to hate but is left looking at his dice after his failure, his father the failure whose beloved even after he killed him.
Ben will be redeemed, if by fully redeemed you mean everything is honky dory he gets to live a normal life among the general populace then no that would be stupid, but he will be redeemed. Those thinking he won't are on the wrong side of Star Wars history.
I just remembered that I had a dream about seeing TROS last night. But, I can't for the life of me remember what it was all about since I also ended up dreaming being chased by the police as part of a manhunt and that one seems to have taken precedent in my memory.
No... That's not what Yoda's lesson is about, it's not about saving Ben at all. You weren't paying attention. Let's revisit:
The entire conversation is about Luke, how he can become a better person and mentor. Understanding why he failed, so that he can help Rey succeed and carry the torch for the resistance and Jedi.L: Master Yoda. Y: Young Skywalker. L: I'm ending all of this. The tree, the text, the Jedi. I'm gonna burn it down. Y: Ah, Skywalker. Missed you, have I. L: So it is time for the Jedi Order to end. Y: Time it is. For you to look past a pile of old books, hmm? L: The sacred Jedi texts. Y: Oh. Read them, have you? Page-turners they were not. Yes, yes, yes. Wisdom they held, but that library contained nothing that the girl Rey does not already possess. Skywalker, still looking to the horizon. Never here, now, hmm? The need in front of your nose. L: I was weak. Unwise. Y: Lost Ben Solo, you did. Lose Rey, we must not. L: I can't be what she needs me to be. Y: Heeded my words not, did you? Pass on what you have learned. Strength, mastery. But weakness, folly, failure also. Yes, failure most of all. The greatest teacher, failure is. Luke, we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters.
This will be continued in TROS when Luke surely has more interaction with Rey.
None of this is about Ben's redemption. Nothing in either film suggests his redemption, quite the opposite. That doesn't mean he can't still help Rey in some way. But he's got nothing left to live for but Rey at this point, and maybe his mother who he was unable to kill, but she will likely be dead before much of the film has progressed.
In fact.. By the time Luke makes his redemption, he has already accepted that Ben is lost, even if not completely gone. He admits that he's not there to save him and that "I failed you.. I'm sorry".
We're not getting a Ben force ghost redemption.. So I'm not sure what kind of big redemption you're expecting that doesn't completely unravel his development in TFA and TLJ.
Think he'll be redeemed if you want, but understand that TLJ is not at all about the redemption of Ben Solo. You've misunderstood the basic themes of the film if you think that's what it's about, and deeply misunderstood Yoda's lesson and conversation with Luke.
There is plenty of room to retcon TLJ into being about it, but I don't think JJ is dumb enough to betray the other two films for a cheap twist.