• Light/Dark
  • Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker |OT| Revenge of a Sith (SPOILERS NOW OPEN)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Reader mode
Veelk

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,722
Drewton said:
Lol, I'm not tired at all, thanks.

Obviously, the idea isn't going to convince people who don't hate the idea to hate it, it's just like a lot of the baseless rumours around TLJ like, again, Luke dying being a last minute edit, which is there for and more often believed by people who already hated TLJ and Luke dying. It is toxicity.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well, then you're just making this terrible argument fully cognizant, I guess.

Anyway, I don't know what else I can say other than that I'm not convinced this actually hurts anyone or anything. I'm not convinced any significant amount of people will actually believe this wholesale. I'm not even convinced this is a meaningful departure from the truth. We already know TRoS had a massively troubled and rushed development, we already know that Adam Driver had this absurd scenario where he had to record some lines for TRoS last minute in a closet, and we can all see that the Rey Palpatine twist is poorly thought out nonsense from how it's implemented in the final movie. Someone who is assuming that the twist is a last minute addition may be wrong about that specific detail, but they wouldn't be too far off from how the movie was made regardless.



Lastly, I think your conflating toxicity with disrespect. Jenny is not being toxic by having a massive hate boner for this movie. It's an awful movie that does damage to characters that were pretty well beloved by a large portion of the community and optically seems to pander to some of the worst aspects of the fanbase. It's okay to fucking hate a movie for that.

Toxicity is when you start going after the real life human beings on personal levels. But you can totally say something like "that's the dignity that story development deserves" because your not obligated to respect a movie you hate.


Crossing Eden said:
This is genuinely the first time I'm hearing about the Luke dying being a last minute edit thing and I think that speaks to the general effectiveness of how misinformation spreads.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah, I haven't heard it either. If I did, I'd probably must have jsut dismissed it as nonsense since there wasn't any evidence for it and forgot about it.
 
Veelk

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,722
Drewton said:
An insignificant number in the grand scheme of things and it may not be a popular theory here but I've seen it perpetuated a lot on Twitter and other places. Just look at all the idiots who believe it on saltierthancrait. It was why a lot of people thought at the time Mark Hamill reacted the way he did after seeing the movie, they think he didn't know he was going to die.

Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
38 votes and 42 comments. If we assume triple the amount of people that commented and upvoted believed this, then that is not 250 people that believed this. People who have, as far as I can tell, not perpetuated this further. In a franchise of millions of fans.


If this is the level of damage Jenny is potentially doing, I'm fine with it.

I mean, do you honestly think this is a problem? Really?
 
Oozer

Oozer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,849
I was going back through some of my old trailer breakdowns and something struck me. Was the shot of the A-Wing crashing from the teaser in the movie? This is the one I'm talking about:

a0uKnmh.jpg


bZ6C55c.png


I don't remember seeing it, but the lighting of the end battle changed quite a bit and there was a lot happening at the end.
 
Crossing Eden

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,497
Drewton said:
An insignificant number in the grand scheme of things and it may not be a popular theory here but I've seen it perpetuated a lot on Twitter and other places. Just look at all the idiots who believe it on saltierthancrait. It was why a lot of people thought at the time Mark Hamill reacted the way he did after seeing the movie, they think he didn't know he was going to die.

Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
40 comments and 30 odd upvotes really don't help the argument. Also...never read SaltierthanCrait.
 
Cross-Section

Cross-Section

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,876
Oozer said:
I was going back through some of my old trailer breakdowns and something struck me. Was the shot of the A-Wing crashing from the teaser in the movie? This is the one I'm talking about:

a0uKnmh.jpg


bZ6C55c.png


I don't remember seeing it, but the lighting of the end battle changed quite a bit and there was a lot happening at the end.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

There's a shot from the D23 trailer that has a similar look:

giphy.gif


I'm thinking it's just unfinished CG (as the final shot has waaaay better lighting and effects).
 
VorpalNonsense

VorpalNonsense

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,673
Oozer said:
I was going back through some of my old trailer breakdowns and something struck me. Was the shot of the A-Wing crashing from the teaser in the movie? This is the one I'm talking about:

a0uKnmh.jpg


bZ6C55c.png


I don't remember seeing it, but the lighting of the end battle changed quite a bit and there was a lot happening at the end.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Interesting! Before leaving for Exegol, Snap is seen prepping an A-Wing, and then dies at the battle.
But in the final movie he's in an X-Wing at the battle instead, which I saw confuse some people online. (Easy to assume he helped prep the A-wing for someone else though)
I wonder if these could be early shots of a different version of his death.
Or it's just a random A-Wing crashing from deleted footage and I'm thinking too much.
 
Veelk

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,722
SMD said:
Is that right
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Not really. As far as I remember, the controversy was that Boyega said with regards to a fan making a joke about how Finn can date Rey now that Kylo Ren is dead, to which he responsed basically "it's not who she kisses, it's who gets to fuck her that matters". Or if you want to use the exact phrasing, it's "whoever lays the pipe." Some people saw it as harmless sex joke, while others pointed out that it frames the worth of a relationship with Rey in a sexually objectified manner. He's saying Finn wins not because she likes him back, but because he's the one who gets to have sex with her.

Most people seemed to agree that it was, if nothing else, unnecessarily crass and perhaps shouldn't have been said, but Boyega was getting a disproportionate amount of attention for it because he's a black man making a sex joke in regards to a white woman. This is my position. It was a dumb joke, but like with no history of genuine sexism, it seems to me that Boyega was just making an edgy, crass joke that wasn't cool, but probably something he didn't think through or mean too much.

Jenny's part in all this was basically calling the joke misogynistic. Well, to be accurate, she said that he was trying to discuss the problematic aspects of the Reylo ship as a distraction from that misogynistic comment, which is a bit worse, but that's pretty much the extent of her 'dragging' Boyega. Imo, this isn't that bad. If her giving the side eye to a guy because he made a joke that could easily be read as sexist is her "showing her lily white feminist ass" then... 🤷‍♂️ In my opinion, she acted alright. She basically just pointed out that what Boyega said wasn't cool and was sexist, but didn't really go farther than that.

If nothing else, if thermopyle is suggesting that she would have been alright with the comment had it come from a white man, that's...unlikely, to say the least.
 
Last edited:
SMD

SMD

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,341
Veelk said:
Not really. As far as I remember, the controversy was that Boyega said with regards to a fan making a joke about how Finn can date Rey now that Kylo Ren is dead, to which he responsed basically "it's not who she kisses, it's who gets to fuck her that matters". Or if you want to use the exact phrasing, it's "whoever lays the pipe." Some people saw it as harmless sex joke, while others pointed out that it frames the worth of a relationship with Rey in a sexually objectified manner. He's saying Finn wins not because she likes him back, but because he's the one who gets to have sex with her.

Most people seemed to agree that it was, if nothing else, unnecessarily crass and perhaps shouldn't have been said, but Boyega was getting a disproportionate amount of attention for it because he's a black man making a sex joke in regards to a white woman. This is my position. It was a dumb joke, but like with no history of genuine sexism, it seems to me that Boyega was just making an edgy, crass joke that wasn't cool, but probably something he didn't think through or mean too much.

Jenny's part in all this was basically calling the joke misogynistic. Well, to be accurate, she said that he was trying to discuss the problematic aspects of the Reylo ship as a distraction from that misogynistic comment, which is a bit worse, but that's pretty much the extent of her 'dragging' Boyega. Imo, this isn't that bad. If her giving the side eye to a guy because he made a joke that could easily be read as sexist is her "showing her lily white feminist ass" then... 🤷‍♂️ In my opinion, she acted alright. She basically just pointed out that what Boyega said wasn't cool and was sexist, but didn't really go farther than that.

If nothing else, if thermopyle is suggesting that she would have been alright with the comment had it come from a white man, that's...unlikely, to say the least.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I do appreciate the effort in your post but I think I should've done a sarcastic chin stroking gif to make it clear I'm massively sceptical about thermopyle's take.
 
SMD

SMD

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,341
Veelk said:
Ah, my mistake then. Apologies.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Nah its good for anyone perhaps unfamiliar with Jenny, I think she's pretty insightful and has a great dry sense of humour to present her thoughts. One thing you can't accuse her of is perpetuating toxic culture unless you think criticism is toxic, in which case hoo boy.
 
Halbrand

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,625
Veelk said:
Lastly, I think your conflating toxicity with disrespect. Jenny is not being toxic by having a massive hate boner for this movie. It's an awful movie that does damage to characters that were pretty well beloved by a large portion of the community and optically seems to pander to some of the worst aspects of the fanbase. It's okay to fucking hate a movie for that.

Toxicity is when you start going after the real life human beings on personal levels. But you can totally say something like "that's the dignity that story development deserves" because your not obligated to respect a movie you hate.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I've never considered toxic fandom to be exclusively that, and I really don't think that is the generally accepted definition of toxic fandom.

The conspiracy theories about Mark Hamill such as not knowing his fate while filming TLJ are what I would consider toxic fandom. Obviously fans hating on KMT or feminist themes in the movie is on a completely different than anything Jenny has said.

Anyway, if you're hung up on the term let's say Jenny's tweets that were referenced and other conspiracy theories about last minute editing that have been going on since the movie released are not helping the discourse.

On the movie I completely, absolutely disagree with you but I won't get into that now.

Crossing Eden said:
40 comments and 30 odd upvotes really don't help the argument. Also...never read SaltierthanCrait.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah, it's a hive of scum and villainy I rarely visit, out of curiosity. YouTube recommended videos aren't much better.

There are conspiracy theory videos about Mark not knowing about Luke dying that got more than 500k views, which may have been more what I was thinking of.
 
Last edited:
Veelk

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,722
Drewton said:
The Last Jedi was hated by a minority but that minority was also very incredibly vocal spending a lot of time on hating on it, that's something I would consider an example of toxic fandom. Obviously fans hating on KMT or feminist themes in the movie is on a completely different level than Jenny's complaints about TROS.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
As someone who is a fan of TLJ, I do not consider it toxic if another person hates TLJ with every fiber of their being.

It's toxic if they went after Kelly Marie Tran or Rian Johnson or any real person, it's toxic if they attacked fans of TLJ for liking it, it's toxic if they spread or perpetuated bigoted ideas. Maybe it's even toxic if they start taking unhealthy actions to express their hatred.

But short of anything like that, hating a movie is fine. A movie isn't a person, it's a thing. An object. It's feelings don't get hurt if we hate it.

Other than some parasocial protectiveness some people might feel, no one is hurt by a person hating a movie, no matter what it is and no matter how much they hate it.

Drewton said:
Anyway, if you're hung up on the term let's say Jenny's tweets that were referenced and other conspiracy theories about last minute editing that have been going on since the movie released are not helping the discourse.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I still don't see why I should care. Okay, some people think that TRoS was a slap dash, hurriedly edited film and the reality is that it wasn't (well, again, it really was, but just not in the specific way some people think). If that makes discourse a bit more difficult because you have a misconception you have to correct, so what?

Until you start telling me who is materially hurt by this, I'm not buying that this is an actual problem. And if your gonna say JJ Abram's, I want more evidence of that than some internet minority that he, in all likelihood, isn't even aware of existing.

Drewton said:
On the movie I completely, absolutely disagree with you but I won't get into that now.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean, okay, that's fine, if you like TRoS, you can respect it on your own terms, but that doesn't I need to respect it or Jenny does when we hate the movie.

Again, I extend this to TLJ haters who I disagree with, they don't need to like the movie just because I do.
 
SonofDonCD

SonofDonCD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
393
Drewton said:
I've never considered toxic fandom to be exclusively that, and I really don't think that is the generally accepted definition of toxic fandom.

The conspiracy theories about Mark Hamill such as not knowing his fate while filming TLJ are what I would consider toxic fandom. Obviously fans hating on KMT or feminist themes in the movie is on a completely different than anything Jenny has said.

Anyway, if you're hung up on the term let's say Jenny's tweets that were referenced and other conspiracy theories about last minute editing that have been going on since the movie released are not helping the discourse.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It is not toxic to hold a negative opinion on a film. You can think this or that film is the absolute worst thing you've ever seen, and still not be toxic. It's what you do with that opinion that can be toxic, namely forcing your opinion onto others in a way that goes well beyond having a normal discussion; I.E. harassing someone online or in person. I think that's the general consensus about the definition of toxic fandom.

People are going to speculate about the media they enjoy. They will guess as to the real intent the creators had for this scene or that plot point. They will look at BTS footage or quotes from the creators and use that to fuel their own theories to the true meaning of the movie. Some of the speculation will come from the text (or the media) directly. Some will come from the context in which the media was made. Most of the speculation will be wrong, as most fan theories are, from the perspective of the creators (though with the concept of Death of the Author, it might not matter, so long as it isn't addressed in future media).

All of this is just to say that what Jenny says here is no different than what fans do to media they follow all the time: they speculate about it. They don't know the truth, that's the whole point of speculating about it; you're surmising and theorizing, which means it can be wrong or right. Whether it's true or not is meaningless, and by itself does no harm to anyone (besides perhaps to JJ Abrams or Chris Terrio's ego).
 
Veelk

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,722
SonofDonCD said:
All of this is just to say that what Jenny says here is no different than what fans do to media they follow all the time: they speculate about it. They don't know the truth, that's the whole point of speculating about it; you're surmising and theorizing, which means it can be wrong or right. Whether it's true or not is meaningless, and by itself does no harm to anyone (besides perhaps to JJ Abrams or Chris Terrio's ego).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I will say some kinds of speculation are toxic, even if they "harm no one", so to speak.

For example, I don't think it's right to speculate on JJ Abram's intentions insofar as how he feels about Rian Johnson. Like, so much of TRoS is about rolling back the advancements that TLJ made that it's hard to believe that JJ didn't feel some kind of dislike for the things TLJ did (I'll note here it's still possible that JJ really did like TLJ like he says in interviews and did his best to honor it in a "I'll bring it full circle" kind of way and did his best to honor it while still pleasing the fans), so I get speculation on that front. However, I don't think it's right to speculate on whether JJ hated Rian himself. That's the point where you stop speculating on his artistic intentions and what he thought of TLJ the movie, and you start speculating on how JJ the person feels about Rian the person. And that creates this toxicity surrounding when JJ Abrams does or does not conform to your idea of JJ Abrams in your head which I don't think does anyone any good.

Another example is the more apparent toxicity of the alt-right fandom and how they see the likes of Kathleen Kennedy or Brie Larson in Cap Marvel encroaching on what they perceive to be 'their' fandom. Like, you see those youtube videos of how they think Brie Larson personally hates white male superhero fans and are going to create movies that emasculate them and their heroes. That is too a form of fandom speculation, but it's incredibly toxic because it's lead by pure sexism - they speculate these awful things because the people making them are women.

So I do agree in the abstract that there is such a thing as toxic speculation....


But obviously, nothing like that is happening with the Jenny Nicholson tweet. Taken at it's absolute worst, all it does is imply that JJ is a shoddy film maker and that's just not crossing any ethical lines for me.
 
Dubbedinenglish

Dubbedinenglish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,326
Veelk

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,722
Dubbedinenglish said:
Quoting from another thread:

A nice flavor of "black brute" language is pretty telling. But you guys keep doing you.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The fake instagram comments, those I hadn't known about and need to look into. I'd like to see what she actually posted in regards to that.

But other than that, sorry, but I see nothing wrong with what she said here and I don't see where you can possibly see anything related to race in this post. She's very specifically talking about his comments and his comments alone and why she has a problem with them. It genuinely does suck that racism means that Boyega's comments were taken more harshly with people as a whole than they would have been from a white person's comments and that did happen, but that's not on Jenny nor is she participating in that if all she's doing is a couple tweets targeting his comments specifically, like she has a history of doing to everyone's comments.

Edit: can you link me to this fake instagram stuff? It's difficult to search and find anything with regards to this.
 
Last edited:
Cecil

Cecil

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,462
With some distance to the movie, I think my complaints are:

1. The whole idea this mega-sized fleet of Star Destroyers that just appears. It's such a lazy move, that also caused the fleet assembled by Lando to be equally ridiculously oversized.
2. That Luke wasn't used more. Considering that setup in The Last Jedi, to have him come back and either haunt or help Ben/Kylo, it feels like such a wasted opportunity for a great sendoff for the character.
 
Crossing Eden

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,497
Luke's FG is of what he actually looked like when he died. The projection was him showing people the most glorified version of himself possible. Kylo's idea of Luke isn't an aging man with unkempt hair and dirty robes.
 
Naijaboy

Naijaboy

The Fallen
Mar 13, 2018
15,409
I'm fairly certain Pop Culture Detective is going a Redemption Equals Death video in response to Ben.
 
Meows

Meows

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,399
Luke looked worse than he did in all of The Last Jedi but that is because of the terrible wig.
 
Naijaboy

Naijaboy

The Fallen
Mar 13, 2018
15,409
Also, I'm going to make the OT2 for this thread by the end of the day. I'll take title suggestions now.
 

Deleted member 11039

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,109
Naijaboy said:
Also, I'm going to make the OT2 for this thread by the end of the day. I'll take title suggestions now.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker |OT| My two dyads

Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker |OT| What's in a name

Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker |OT| I am Spartacus

Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker |OT| Reyfinders, McGuFinns & Poe storytelling

Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker |OT| Problem with the landing gear

Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker |OT| No one's ever really gone

Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker |OT| Nein

Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker |OT| Sealed with a kiss

Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker |OT| Young fool, only now at the end do you understand
 
DiipuSurotu

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
Naijaboy said:
Also, I'm going to make the OT2 for this thread by the end of the day. I'll take title suggestions now.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker |OT2| The thread speaks!

Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker |OT2| Rey who?

Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker |OT2| Be with us

Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker |OT2| It's not a thread, sir, it's just... people
 
Halbrand

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,625
Here's a list of some of the things that JediPaxis, the main TROS leaker, believed were reshot, from a summary he posted in October. Take it with some salt of course because there's the possibility some of these scenes were just things he didn't know about.
  • Rey's opening scene focused on communicating with the Jedi through the Force - pretty sure people noticed her hairstyle is different here
  • A greater sense of anger in Rey's training with a tree falling on BB-8. Apparently she tried communicated with Luke, wonder if this was cut.
  • Old version of Kylo meeting the Emperor on Exogol: Kylo can't believe he's alive, Palpatine refutes the idea of being a clone. He tells him about the Force Dyad and he wants Kylo and Rey to rule together.
  • Apparently in the reshoot Palpatine mocked Kylo's "let the past die" mindset and said the past is key to the future.
  • Poe and Rey fighting over lights-speed skipping/BB-8 being damaged.
  • The "Somehow Palpatine returned" scene.
  • The First Order conference room scene.
  • Leia giving Rey Luke's lightsaber back.
  • Luke's appearance to Leia (just a voiceover?) during her death scene was cut out.
  • Luke's scene with Rey was completely reshot, with the overall tone and message remaining the same. This was confirmed by the TROS editor. It was added that Luke and Leia both knew Rey's heritage.
  • It's possible that the Emperor wanting Rey to strike him down was tweaked with reshoots, but Paxis also believed that the dyad concept had been cut entirely.
  • Paxis believed that Ben originally dispatched of the Knights using only the Force, not Anakin's lightsaber.
  • He also believed that Luke and Leia as ghosts helped Rey defeat Palpatine, rather than the spirits of all the Jedi. If this really was a reshoot it would also make sense that Rey reaching out to the Jedi spirits in the beginning was a reshoot.
  • He was originally told that there would be more of the main characters on Tatooine with Finn and Rey holding hands.

If the spirits of the past Jedi aspect was added in reshoots, then the "I am all the Sith" and "I am the Jedi" part definitely was too. I'm not one to say the movie was generally trying to copy Endgame, but that moment definitely was.
 
Last edited:
MillionIII

MillionIII

Banned
Sep 11, 2018
6,816
I think that they should make a Ben Solo movie with snoke, KOR and Luke. It would be about his turn to the dark side, and Palaptine's Snoke clones, what you think?
 
Reader mode
Status
Not open for further replies.