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Stranger Things S4 | OT | Every ending has a beginning (Open spoilers)

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SpankyDoodle

SpankyDoodle

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Oct 25, 2017
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Ether_Snake said:
It's not just a mirror, it is a mirror frozen of the very day Will disappeared. El didn't send Henry off on that day, so it has to tie into Will or something that happened on that day. Only thing I can think of is they played their game of D&D on that day, and didn't finish it; like Lucas said, if Mike doesn't know it was a 7 it doesn't count, but Will went and told him. I think it ties into that.

I'm ever more convinced the kids will play a game of D&D in the UD to win. Erica now being a player and such is going to tie into this,
and in a way can be part of Eddie's legacy.
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CrazyDude said:
It could be that the upside down is influenced by strong desires. So in Will's case, his desire to go home some how created a mirror image of Hawkins.
Also Vecna entered the UD in 1979, btw.
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I don't remember and can't check myself, do they specify that UD Hawkins is set on THE DAY that Will went missing or just that it's stuck in 1983?

subpar spatula said:
So the Mindflayer is basically the "power" or "essence" of a Dungeon Master, right? Makes sense. It controls everything in the Upside Down. Henry comes and "corrupts it" giving him control of it which allows him to make his own "campaign". He then creates a campaign to invade earth: demodogs, demobats, flesh monster, etc, and allows him to see through (knowing her friends would die from the vines, demodog, demogorgon, demobats) similar to how a Dungeon Master can "see" into monsters by knowing what their stats are and when they are engaged by the players. This makes sense because he can now bend what the Upside Down is whether it be Hawkins or create things. The Upsidedown is basically a blank slate for what you want to make your campaign on.
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Except that Henry didn't create anything, the first thing he sees in the UD when he gets there is a Demodog walking around on the rocks. Also the flesh monster isn't a unique separate entity it's the Mind Flayer taking physical form in their reality.

Shemhazai said:
People are reading way too hard into the D&D allegory.

It's just a way for a bunch of kids to make sense of the nightmarish shit that's going on around them.
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Seriously, the finale of the show isn't gonna be the kids playing D&D against a monster and their game isn't coming to life with the series just being their imaginations with invented friends as they play

And resetting back to the beginning so they can finish their game is some Dark Tower fucking trash bullshit ending. Absolutely not.
 
SpankyDoodle

SpankyDoodle

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Ether_Snake said:
But they are
literally setting up a zombie apocalypse for S5. Max is a body without a mind in it, there's going to a bunch of those, El might have to be their necromancer to defeat him. The more people Vecna kills the more El can raise zombies against his creatures.
So it works.
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There's nothing to suggest there's going to be a bunch of those, Henry needed four and he got four and only one of them turned into that and it only happened because El tried to bring her back to life, not because of Henry's plan.
CrazyDude said:
Yes, Nancy looks through her diary and the last day is the exact date Will went missing and the gate opened.
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Oh that's right! Yes thank you. Wtf I am so freaking curious
 
Legacy

Legacy

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"I piggybacked from a pizza dough freezer" is now my favourite quote of this series.

Fantastic end to the season but epsiode 8 was filled with a lot of fluff.

Also, how long were those Vecna vines choking those three in the house? Seemed like forever.
 
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Tomasoares

Tomasoares

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Oct 28, 2017
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My bet is
that Max is in an unstable state, meaning that the huge fracture will appear and dissapear sporadically, meaning that the closer she's to death, bigger will be the fracture, and restoring her back will be the main plot for the next season.

Vecna should play a role in this, but from his speech, Nancy's vision, etc, he'll not be the final villain and should be discarded by the Mind Flyer or the thing that rules it mid-season
 
Morrigan

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Maple said:
You kind of have to view things from his perspective though. He knows nothing of the Upside Down or the truth of anything that has happened in Hawkins. He then finds out the love of his life was murdered by someone most people view to be a social outcast. He then watches one of his good friends levitate into the air and die in front of his eyes.

At the time, the media was running stories about how "Dungeons and Dragons" was a game promoting Satanism and cult worship.

www.bbc.com

The great 1980s Dungeons & Dragons panic

Dungeons & Dragons, which celebrates its 40th birthday this year, was once accused of encouraging Satanism, espionage and anti-social behaviour.
www.bbc.com

Jason put two and two together and viewed Eddie and "The Hellfire Club" as responsible for all of this and felt obligated to protect the town and absolve his community of this evil.

I'm not saying he was a good guy or not an asshole, but the way in which he acted wasn't entirely unjustified.
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Even if you can rationalize his bigoted shittiness, it was still unjustified. Also, dude tried to fucking murder Lucas. Fuck him.

Conditional-Pancakes said:
Let me put that gif here, for no reason at all :p

XD44HUf.gif
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😂

StopMakingSense said:
wait, why is all this speculation about time travel?
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I don't know but it's insufferable and annoying and I wish it would stop.
 
Yu Narukami

Yu Narukami

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Also, do we still need to spoiler tag stuff. I mean why would you come here if you haven't watched it yet.
 
subpar spatula

subpar spatula

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CrazyDude said:
It could be that the upside down is influenced by strong desires. So in Will's case, his desire to go home some how created a mirror image of Hawkins.
Also Vecna entered the UD in 1979, btw.
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Vecna went on in 1979. Will Byers went missing on November 6, 1983 after encountering the demogorgon on Mirkwood. And this is why Will has nothing to do with the time freeze of Hawkins in the Upside Down:

strangerthings.fandom.com

The Demogorgon

The Demogorgon, also known as the Monster, was a predatory humanoid creature that entered Hawkins, Indiana in November 1983. The creature seemed to originate from the parallel dimension known as the Upside Down.[1] When Eleven, a child test subject from Hawkins National Laboratory with...
strangerthings.fandom.com strangerthings.fandom.com

Dr. Brenner had Eleven make physical contact with the demogorgon on November 6, 1983 which created a rift.

Will has nothing to do with it. It was all Eleven, and Vecna probably made it look like Hawkins.
.
 
Dr. Mario

Dr. Mario

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You all know how addictive it is to come here. Even if it's only two episodes, scheduling in two long movies is a bit difficult for some, I'd personally say give it until Friday, so a week, before it's spoilers off. I don't mind either way of course, I already finished it.
 
SpankyDoodle

SpankyDoodle

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Oct 25, 2017
6,082
Conditional-Pancakes said:
Should we go open spoilers for the whole season?

It's only two (big) episodes and we're at the end of the first weekend. If people think it's best, I really don't mind.
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If you weren't planning to already my only suggestion would be to PM a mod to change the thread title to include (open spoilers) or something? But otherwise it would make discussing and reading so much more pleasant hehe

Edit: though Dr Mario makes a good point that usually with movies we wait a week, right? I know these aren't truly movies but given their runtimes they're pretty close
 
Morrigan

Morrigan

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Why would you enter this thread if you haven't caught up anyway? The constant clicking to even follow basic discussion is obnoxious.
 
Soap NickTavish

Soap NickTavish

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Oct 30, 2017
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Anyone suggesting or speculating about a time reset should just stop; it's a Z tier trope and I would hope at this point, a show like this would avoid such a thing.

Anyways, enjoyed the last two episodes, really hit some good emotional notes and like the setup for the final seasons.

Bummed about Eddie since he's such a likeable character, but his arc felt complete even if I wanted more. Love how he dedicated his song Chrissy. Also loved how unceremoniously Jason was melted in half.
 
Musubi

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Soap NickTavish said:
Anyone suggesting or speculating about a time reset should just stop; it's a Z tier trope and I would hope at this point, a show like this would avoid such a thing.

Anyways, enjoyed the last two episodes, really hit some good emotional notes and like the setup for the final seasons.

Bummed about Eddie since he's such a likeable character, but his arc felt complete even if I wanted more. Love how he dedicated his song Chrissy. Also loved how unceremoniously Jason was melted in half.
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Eddie may have died but hot damn did he have one of the best moments in the entire season playing Puppet Master in the middle of the Upside Down.
 
Dr. Mario

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As a vocal critic of weekly release schedules on other services, and someone who was cynical about Netflix breaking this up in two, I was actually surprisingly okay with how they handled it. But it's mostly because it's not really two parts of a season, as much as a season concluding with two full feature films with blockbuster budgets.

Although it might also be that this season solidified to me that Stranger Things is probably my favorite TV show ever, so it could also simply have a tremendous amount of slack to pull stunts like this.
 
OP
OP
Conditional-Pancakes

Conditional-Pancakes

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the wilderness
Volume Two is shorter and we're at the end of the first weekend, I think going open spoilers for the whole season makes sense.

I requested a thread title change. As soon as it's done I'll do a threadmark, modify the OP, and we'll go in full open spoilers mode.


Morrigan said:
Why would you enter this thread if you haven't caught up anyway? The constant clicking to even follow basic discussion is obnoxious.
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scDJdD6.gif
 
Biske

Biske

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Nov 11, 2017
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Ferrio said:
DM Mike's nerd campaign. Fighting monsters, getting girls. That'd actually make sense why he's still being considered the Leader.

No way they're pulling this trope, they aren't that stupid
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Would be cool if they filmed it as an alternate series ending. I'd love to see that.
 
GokouD

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Oct 30, 2017
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Just finished watching, I can't believe
they knocked Vecna out of the window and assumed he was dead. Have they never seen a horror film? 😅
 
SlickVic

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Oct 27, 2017
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Man really enjoyable last 2 episodes. In the last episode though when Nancy is shooting Vecna after he's on fire, I kept thinking 'Go for the head Nancy, not the chest!' lol. Especially when they juxtapose that scene with Hopper slicing off the head of that demogorgon and I'm like 'that's how you do it'. Not that it would have made a difference in Vecna's case either way, since he seems to have a thick layer of 'plot armor' on (for now at least). But man, looked like they were so close to getting him. Though obviously that's not what the story called for.

Can't wait for the next season, however far away that currently is.
 
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CampFreddie

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Conditional-Pancakes said:
Let me put that gif here, for no reason at all :p

XD44HUf.gif
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I don't feel much empathy for Jason, but I really liked the way they wrote him. He really thought he was the hero and not the villain.
Given that his girlfriend was brutally murdered, then he witnessed the voodoo death of his friend, while Eddie went on the run and the national press were saying that D&D was a satanic cult... well it makes a twisted kind of sense that he'd think the Hellfire Club were responsible. It's certainly more believable than the actual Henry/Vecna/Upside Down events.

I'm wondering if the next season will be a take on the zombie movie as the town becomes a dead/upside down version of its former self. They've used other horror themes but never touched zombies before. I'm not sure I would want his but...
It would be worth it to see Zombie Eddie play some serious metal
 
CrazyDude

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subpar spatula said:
Vecna went on in 1979. Will Byers went missing on November 6, 1983 after encountering the demogorgon on Mirkwood. And this is why Will has nothing to do with the time freeze of Hawkins in the Upside Down:

strangerthings.fandom.com

The Demogorgon

The Demogorgon, also known as the Monster, was a predatory humanoid creature that entered Hawkins, Indiana in November 1983. The creature seemed to originate from the parallel dimension known as the Upside Down.[1] When Eleven, a child test subject from Hawkins National Laboratory with...
strangerthings.fandom.com strangerthings.fandom.com

Dr. Brenner had Eleven make physical contact with the demogorgon on November 6, 1983 which created a rift.

Will has nothing to do with it. It was all Eleven, and Vecna probably made it look like Hawkins.
.
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I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here? I know that Vecna went to the UD in 1979 and it looked like a primordial world at the time. I know that El opened the gate, I never said Will opened the gate. I was talking about why the UD is a copy of the one from 1983. It's not going to be because Vecna made it like that, that isn't a reveal you tease as being your big reveal for season 5.
 
Maple

Maple

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Oct 27, 2017
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So when the Duffer Brothers say they "outlined" season 5 before they started shooting season 4, what exactly does that mean?

Does that mean they just have a couple paragraphs written about the general synopsis about where they want to be in season 5 in the beginning, middle, and end? Or is it more that the full story of season 5 already done and set, just without the actual lines of dialogue written?
 
CrazyDude

CrazyDude

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Oct 25, 2017
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Maple said:
So when the Duffer Brothers say they "outlined" season 5 before they started shooting season 4, what exactly does that mean?

Does that mean they just have a couple paragraphs written about the general synopsis about where they want to be in season 5 in the beginning, middle, and end? Or is it more that the full story of season 5 already done and set, just without the actual lines of dialogue written?
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An outline usually means that they go through the whole season and basically write out what happens scene by scene. It is basically a more in depth synopsis.
 
jtmmachine

jtmmachine

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Nov 2, 2020
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Soltis said:
Something that now seems technically possible, but probably very unlikely…

If Vecna has truly been behind everything that's happened in previous seasons and IF his victims' minds/spirits remain with him in some way, as suggested by Max's current state, then couldn't that technically create openings for past characters to reappear? Just imagine the gang reuniting with Max's mind and then boom, she's flanked by what's left of Barb and Billy. To be clear, I'd be shocked if this actually happened, but whoa, how satisfying would it be if all of Vecna's past victims got to play some role in bringing him down?

Something else I've been thinking about:

Just how satisfying it would be if Vecna met his end if his grip over the Upside Down was broken and all of its creatures turned against him.
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I was wondering why they went out of their way to point out that Vecna specifically, not the Demogorgon or Mindflayer on his orders/under his control, killed Barb. Nancy's got more than enough guilt for Vecna to manipulate without that extra detail. I could see Vecna absorbing Barb and that coming back to bite him in the ass. Billy I'm not so sure about, I prefer where they left his and Max's relationship after this season: as this twisted knot of raw bad emotions Max hasn't untangled and may never 100% process
 
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Dakkon

Dakkon

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subpar spatula said:
Vecna went on in 1979. Will Byers went missing on November 6, 1983 after encountering the demogorgon on Mirkwood. And this is why Will has nothing to do with the time freeze of Hawkins in the Upside Down:

strangerthings.fandom.com

The Demogorgon

The Demogorgon, also known as the Monster, was a predatory humanoid creature that entered Hawkins, Indiana in November 1983. The creature seemed to originate from the parallel dimension known as the Upside Down.[1] When Eleven, a child test subject from Hawkins National Laboratory with...
strangerthings.fandom.com strangerthings.fandom.com

Dr. Brenner had Eleven make physical contact with the demogorgon on November 6, 1983 which created a rift.

Will has nothing to do with it. It was all Eleven, and Vecna probably made it look like Hawkins.
.
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I think the underlying issue with this is:

How would Vecna know what was in Hawkins in 1983 when he wasn't in Hawkins anymore? If Vecna made it then wouldn't it be Hawkins sometimes before 1979, whenever he was taken to the facility with the other children?

Even if you want to argue he formed the Hawkins look in 1983 when Eleven made contact with him...Eleven was born in a hospital and taken to the facility near immediately and never actually saw Hawkins.

So neither of these characters knew what Hawkins (certainly not a large swathe of the town at that) looked like in 1983.

This is why I think the following:

It is powered by the mind in some sense.

I think it's incredible important that:

1) The Mind Flayer takes the shape of 1's drawing in the first place, upon entering the Upside Down. He was a powerful psychic but he had no connection to the Upside Down (he didn't even know it existed yet when he drew that), so it was either dumb luck or the Shadow molds itself based on thoughts.

2) Will's connection with Vecna/the Shadow on his mind still exists, so they're still linked since 1983.

3) Vecna's house in the upside down (barring the tendrils of course) doesn't look how it does in 1983 (where it was already boarded up and what not), but rather how it does before 1 was taken to the facility. His memory of the place, in particular.

So not that anyone can just walk in and change it with strong enough belief, but the Shadow molds the place based on the minds of the things it touches.
 

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NotLiquid said:
Jason's aggressive fear mongering is understandable for evoking that particular era. In the first volume I considered him pitiable more than anything.

Then he actually pulled the trigger on Lucas over it instead of trying to listen to reason and I'm like nah bye bitch I won't weep for your death lol

It's funny how Steve has so far wound up being the only stereotype character who actually turned out alright in the end. I remember when season 2 happened, as well as the leadup to season 3, and how some people were actually kind of upset about Billy not getting redeemed that same way, yet I think with the benefit of hindsight, both Billy and Jason are absolutely necessary being the way they are. I think in Steve's redemption, it may have run the risk of softening some realities of that period (this season in particular highlights how Steve being so lighthearted about Robin being lesbian would really not be treated as the norm back then).
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It's definitely understandable given the context, and I agree I think he was a good antagonist character and done very well. I just don't have any empathy for him at all lol
 
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