Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Development Thread | News, Site Updates, and Speculation

Maximum Spider · Jun 23, 2018

Heartskips said:
He''s well known, but he's not particularly loved as a character. I think it made sense.

If anything, I remember fans dreading the very likely Pac-man announcement at the time.

I think that a lot of casual, older gamers who don't necessarily communicate on the internet appreciated his inclusion.

The importance of Pac-Man's inclusion being lost on some gamers is a bit disappointing, though. Also, isn't he Miyamoto's favorite video game character?

Red Arremer · Jun 23, 2018

NeonZ said:
As far as the past stages go, they're finally getting updated though. The Melee stages are immediately different and even Brawl ones have many extra details. This does hurt characters like Game & Watch though, since retro stages don't really benefit from that.

How does it hurt Game & Watch? Flat Zone maybe, but I don't think it makes much of a difference for the character himself. :P
I do like what they're doing with the N64 stages tho, keeping the whole blocky/pixely visual style but making it also look more contemporary.

Phendrift said:
Yeah, it just really seems like they're afraid to dig deeper than "iconic first level/hub everyone knows" for stage selections, which is honestly a shame tbh, especially when in pretty much all scenarios, those are never a game's best environments.

I mean, the first levels also are usually the most recognizable, so it kind of makes sense, but on the other hand, it also skips out on a lot of cool stuff. It's especially jarring with Mario, since most of what we've been getting is Mushroom Kingdom variations, with a few traveling stages here or there. I actually really liked that they went with Rainbow Road as a stage in Smash 3DS, because it's significantly more iconic than any Mario Circuit has ever been. Alas, I don't think we'll ever get stuff like Bowser's Castle, a haunted mansion, or any of the other non-grassland environments that are just as iconic and prevalent in the Mario franchise as the grassland stages are. And that's just Mario.

That said, there have been stages that utilized later areas, such as Norfair for Metroid, which tends to be the penultimate area before Tourian, Magicant for Mother, Port Town for F-Zero, etc.

Phendrift · Jun 23, 2018

Red Arremer said:
How does it hurt Game & Watch? Flat Zone maybe, but I don't think it makes much of a difference for the character himself. :P
I do like what they're doing with the N64 stages tho, keeping the whole blocky/pixely visual style but making it also look more contemporary.

I mean, the first levels also are usually the most recognizable, so it kind of makes sense, but on the other hand, it also skips out on a lot of cool stuff. It's especially jarring with Mario, since most of what we've been getting is Mushroom Kingdom variations, with a few traveling stages here or there. I actually really liked that they went with Rainbow Road as a stage in Smash 3DS, because it's significantly more iconic than any Mario Circuit has ever been. Alas, I don't think we'll ever get stuff like Bowser's Castle, a haunted mansion, or any of the other non-grassland environments that are just as iconic and prevalent in the Mario franchise as the grassland stages are. And that's just Mario.

That said, there have been stages that utilized later areas, such as Norfair for Metroid, which tends to be the penultimate area before Tourian, Magicant for Mother, Port Town for F-Zero, etc.

No yeah, I completely understand why they do it. It just sucks that we don't get those deeper cuts.

And yeah Norfair was a super odd choice to make, considering Brawl also had Prime 2 to pull a stage from so I don't know why they chose Norfair as a second Metroid stage. I guess it was because of Zero Mission. If there's one aspect of Metroid that doesn't need any more representation, it's Zebes lol

Weltall Zero · Jun 23, 2018

sigmaxchange said:
For example, I feel the reaction is more "oh hey it's Flat Zone for the third time. Game & Watch is never gonna get a new stage ever again." We did see many returning stages just recently.

But Flat Zones stages are different... unless that's your point. :D

Red Arremer · Jun 23, 2018

Heartskips said:
He''s well known, but he's not particularly loved as a character. I think it made sense.

If anything, I remember fans dreading the very likely Pac-man announcement at the time.

Baron von Loathsome said:
Yeah, people were weirdly down on the idea of Pac-Man being playable. Which is a shame, since he's one of my favorite characters in Smash 4.

max.rem said:
I think that a lot of casual, older gamers who don't necessarily communicate on the internet appreciated his inclusion.

The importance of Pac-Man's inclusion being lost on some gamers is a bit disappointing, though. Also, isn't he Miyamoto's favorite video game character?

It's kind of heartbreaking to me, since he's one of those icons I grew up with, but I guess he's more a relic from a different era, one which is prior to the vast majority of people who play Smash, much like the retro characters in general. I can watch that damn Pac-Man trailer ten times in a row and it'll still make a shiver run down my spine. When the Pac-Mania music started prior to Smash 4, I was over the moon. And there's not many characters left across video game history that could repeat that sensation.

MsMuerta said:
I'd say most people dreaded Pac-Man's presence because they thought it would be THIS one:

I guess that's true, though I thought that after Mega Man was so heavily based on his NES sprite, people shouldn't have been concerned, since Sakurai clearly was wanting to go for the classic, iconic look on him - it stood to reason that he would do the same for Pac-Man.

MsMuerta · Jun 23, 2018

Heartskips said:
He''s well known, but he's not particularly loved as a character. I think it made sense.

If anything, I remember fans dreading the very likely Pac-man announcement at the time.

I'd say most people dreaded Pac-Man's presence because they thought it would be THIS one:

ClickyCal' · Jun 23, 2018

Altered said:
Damn! was looking through the krystal support thread on smashboards and they were pressed that Sakurai compared the character to filler and generic enemies.

source: http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/08/17/sakuraibrawlquestions/

to be fair though, Baby Peach actually appeared in Yoshi Island DS and Mario and Luigi: Partners in Time. She has much more to her resume than Waluigi, whose highest point was padding out Mario's wardrobe in SMO.

Even nintendo's localization team had to dunk on him.

They'll be even more pressed if sakurai then makes waddle dee playable ironically.

PSqueak · Jun 23, 2018

Sakurai: It's not that I don't understand how that feels, but if you start saying that, it becomes "Why isn't Waddle Dee playable?" or Dry Bones, or Baby Peach. There'd be no end to it.

Was this before or after return to dreamland?

Cause its fucked up he made Bandana Waddle Dee and then said this.

Maximum Spider · Jun 23, 2018

Red Arremer said:
It's kind of heartbreaking to me, since he's one of those icons I grew up with, but I guess he's more a relic from a different era, one which is prior to the vast majority of people who play Smash, much like the retro characters in general. I can watch that damn Pac-Man trailer ten times in a row and it'll still make a shiver run down my spine. When the Pac-Mania music started prior to Smash 4, I was over the moon. And there's not many characters left across video game history that could repeat that sensation.

I guess that's true, though I thought that after Mega Man was so heavily based on his NES sprite, people shouldn't have been concerned, since Sakurai clearly was wanting to go for the classic, iconic look on him - it stood to reason that he would do the same for Pac-Man.

That trailer is something special. That second I realized that this was possible--

I started to grin ear-to-ear. TBH, I hope Pac-Man & Mega Man become mainstays of Smash like Sonic has.

ClickyCal' · Jun 23, 2018

PSqueak said:
Was this before or after return to dreamland?

Cause its fucked up he made Bandana Waddle Dee and then said this.

Waddle dee with a spear more important than krystal confirmed.

Weltall Zero · Jun 23, 2018

Red Arremer said:
It's kind of heartbreaking to me, since he's one of those icons I grew up with, but I guess he's more a relic from a different era, one which is prior to the vast majority of people who play Smash, much like the retro characters in general.

To be fair, half of Smash is celebrating relics from a different era, so he fits right in.

Red Arremer said:
I can watch that damn Pac-Man trailer ten times in a row and it'll still make a shiver run down my spine. When the Pac-Mania music started prior to Smash 4, I was over the moon. And there's not many characters left across video game history that could repeat that sensation.

Pac-Man's trailer is just perfect, quite possibly my favorite one, even above Mega Man's which was hype in pure form. I've watched it a million times and I still get a huge grin every time.

Red Arremer said:
I guess that's true, though I thought that after Mega Man was so heavily based on his NES sprite, people shouldn't have been concerned, since Sakurai clearly was wanting to go for the classic, iconic look on him - it stood to reason that he would do the same for Pac-Man.

It's kind of amazing how impeccable of a taste Sakurai has, isn't it? Frankly, I can't wait to see his interpretation of Simon, assuming the rumors are true.

PSqueak · Jun 23, 2018

yuoke said:
Waddle dee with a spear more important than krystal confirmed.

Hahaha,

What i mean, it's he madean individual waddle dee playable and with a personality and then goes "fuck that generic fucker".

PadWarrior · Jun 23, 2018

max.rem said:
That trailer is something special. That second I realized that this was possible--

I started to grin ear-to-ear. TBH, I hope Pac-Man & Mega Man become mainstays of Smash like Sonic has.

Agreed! The mega man reveal trailer still makes me misty eyed. Him and Mario are my childhood gaming heroes.

Weltall Zero · Jun 23, 2018

MsMuerta said:
I'd say most people dreaded Pac-Man's presence because they thought it would be THIS one:

killitwithfire.gif :S

Phendrift · Jun 23, 2018

MsMuerta said:
I'd say most people dreaded Pac-Man's presence because they thought it would be THIS one:

As someone who doesn't really care about the character, what's the difference between this design and the smash one besides the facial expression?

Deleted member 2793 · Jun 23, 2018

Phendrift said:
As someone who doesn't really care about the character, what's the difference between this design and the smash one besides the facial expression?

This one sucks a lot. The Smash one is just boring average.

mopinks · Jun 23, 2018

having Pac-Man in the game is fun but his actual trailer was extremely underwhelming compared to the good-ass trailers everyone else got

it's nothin'

Weltall Zero · Jun 23, 2018

Red Arremer said:
How does it hurt Game & Watch? Flat Zone maybe, but I don't think it makes much of a difference for the character himself. :P
I do like what they're doing with the N64 stages tho, keeping the whole blocky/pixely visual style but making it also look more contemporary.

Agreed! I think the blurry and pixellated textures hurt N64's stages in previous games, especially in HD, but the way they've cleaned them up and made them more colorful and vibrant in Ultimate is pretty cool. They now look like one remembers them, not like they actually looked, which is the best kind of retro.

Phendrift said:
As someone who doesn't really care about the character, what's the difference between this design and the smash one besides the facial expression?

The eyes are completely different (Smash has the classic button eyes), the teeth are ridiculous, and he stole Sonic's shoes for no reason.

Berordn · Jun 23, 2018

Phendrift said:
As someone who doesn't really care about the character, what's the difference between this design and the smash one besides the facial expression?

The main thing is that the design we got is his classic arcade appearance, this one was tied to a very ill-conceived reboot that did nothing important for the series. It would be kinda like getting Sonic's design from Sonic Boom instead. Yeah, it's still Sonic and does Sonic things, but it's not the actual icon we're familiar with and associated with a bunch of media in which games are just tertiary.

Red Arremer · Jun 23, 2018

Weltall Zero said:
To be fair, half of Smash is celebrating relics from a different era, so he fits right in.

A lot of them are a lot more prolific and successful than Pac-Man is nowadays, though. Like, yeah, he's still around, and there's still games with him that are pretty decent, but he's an icon of the arcade era more than anything else. Sure, Mario also originated from that era, but Mario also is more forefront and well-known. Back in the 80s, everyone knew Pac-Man, and Mario wasn't even really a factor until the mid-80s.

Pac-Man's trailer is just perfect, quite possibly my favorite one, even above Mega Man's which was hype in pure form. I've watched it a million times and I still get a huge grin every time.

Yes! I was so excited when it started with the "wak-" and Pac-Man's old face, and then the Pac-Mania music starts playing and he pulls all these different Namco arcade references out of thin air. It was easily one of the simplest, yet best-constructed trailers, even though it doesn't even really feature any CGI.

It's kind of amazing how impeccable of a taste Sakurai has, isn't it? Frankly, I can't wait to see his interpretation of Simon, assuming the rumors are true.

Simon would probably be the only character who would make me smile as much as Pac-Man did. I just imagine them using Bloody Tears or Simon's Theme (much as I love Vampire Killer, it's not a track that works too well for a trailer imo) and putting in all these little references to the original NES games like whipping candles, meat in a wall, Medusa Heads and Dracula teleporting and shooting fireballs.

Weltall Zero · Jun 23, 2018

Heartskips said:
This one sucks a lot. The Smash one is just boring average.

Well, you could say he was literally "the average" in 1980, considering he was pretty much the only videogame character in existence. Pac-Man / 1 = Pac-Man. :D

Weltall Zero · Jun 23, 2018

Red Arremer said:
A lot of them are a lot more prolific and successful than Pac-Man is nowadays, though.

And a ton of them are far less so. I mean, let's not forget this is a series that includes ROB, Mr. Game & Watch, Ice Climbers, Pit before Uprising... I mean, people are clamoring for Takamaru and for Geno to become playable; Pac-Man is a goddamn superstar in comparison. :D

Red Arremer said:
Simon would probably be the only character who would make me smile as much as Pac-Man did. I just imagine them using Bloody Tears or Simon's Theme (much as I love Vampire Killer, it's not a track that works too well for a trailer imo) and putting in all these little references to the original NES games like whipping candles, meat in a wall, Medusa Heads and Dracula teleporting and shooting fireballs.

Bloody Tears would be amazing for a trailer. I've lost track of the number of arrangements of that song I've listened to over the years between game versions, official music CD arrangements, and fan versions.

Maximum Spider · Jun 23, 2018

Hearing Smash arrangements of Bloody Tears and Vampire Killer would make me vomit from excitement.

mopinks · Jun 23, 2018

I'm still going to be very disappointed if they don't do a recreation of the classic Simon-looking-up-at-the-castle shot, but with Castle Dedede

Maximum Spider · Jun 23, 2018

mopinks said:
I'm still going to be very disappointed if they don't do a recreation of the classic Simon-looking-up-at-the-castle shot, but with Castle Dedede

Gotta imagine it'd be this--

zelda-breath-of-the-wild-hyrule-castle-e1489071791629.jpg

Either way, I want Snake in his CG trailer even if it's just a brief cameo.

Scar · Jun 23, 2018

I hope simon retains his captain N look.

ClickyCal' · Jun 23, 2018

Phendrift said:
As someone who doesn't really care about the character, what's the difference between this design and the smash one besides the facial expression?

For one, the teeth are really weird. It's like mario with no mustache.

NeonZ · Jun 23, 2018

PSqueak said:
Was this before or after return to dreamland?

Cause its fucked up he made Bandana Waddle Dee and then said this.

A few months after Brawl's launch, so it should be older than Super Star Ultra. He also didn't really "make" Bandanna Dee. It was a design used for a Waddle Dee in the Megaton Punch mini-game in Super Star, but it only actually became a character of its own in Super Star Ultra.

RomanceDawn · Jun 23, 2018

IntelliHeath said:
Imran come into this thread and told us to take Sakurai's warning more serious, when people already assumed that we are getting 7-8 newcomers.

Sorry quoting from pages back but why are folks putting so much weight in Imran's statement? I don't have any reason to doubt him but is his/her history known to be in the know?

What ever the case I still expect a good 7 more characters, new and echo'd along with DLC happening later.

Sakurai gonna Sakurai.

GreenMamba · Jun 23, 2018

A lot of people swore up and down that Pac-Man and Bowser Jr. would be uninteresting characters and a lot of waffling on how could they possibly make interesting trailers for them and then... they were totally fine.

I'm just saying.

Weltall Zero · Jun 23, 2018

I'm also partial to Bloodlines / Blood Relations (the track, not the also fantastic Genesis game), although I guess it's more specifically associated with Richter.

Red Arremer · Jun 23, 2018

Weltall Zero said:
Bloody Tears would be amazing for a trailer. I've lost track of the number of arrangements of that song I've listened to over the years between game versions, official music CD arrangements, and fan versions.

max.rem said:
Hearing Smash arrangements of Bloody Tears and Vampire Killer would make me vomit from excitement.

I can just imagine the intro keys of Simon's Theme playing as the trailer opens up, and then we see Simon whipping stuff during the main part. CVHD's remix practically begs to be used for a trailer:

And as a little nod at the end we can have the Maria Renard Assist Trophy sing Bloody Tears:

Nocturnowl · Jun 23, 2018

I need Dixie in here with the player 2 alt colours from DKC2 and 3.

mopinks · Jun 23, 2018

max.rem said:
Gotta imagine it'd be this--

that's not even half as funny

Red Arremer · Jun 23, 2018

I feel like the trailer would probably feature Dracula's Castle, but I'd love there to be an Ayami Kojima artwork as a Smash mockup of the original Castlevania boxart, with Mt. Dedede and its castle and Dedede's ghostly face in the sky, while Simon - along with other Smash characters - face towards it. That would be truly amazing.

RomanceDawn · Jun 23, 2018

GreenMamba said:
A lot of people swore up and down that Pac-Man and Bowser Jr. would be uninteresting characters and a lot of waffling on how could they possibly make interesting trailers for them and then... they were totally fine.

I'm just saying.

Can we give this man a "woah Bundy!" ?

DrArchon · Jun 23, 2018

mopinks said:
I'm still going to be very disappointed if they don't do a recreation of the classic Simon-looking-up-at-the-castle shot, but with Castle Dedede

Better.

Simon looks up at the castle, but it's Magus's Castle from Chrono Trigger and then immediately after Crono is announced to be playable.

Mind. Blown.

ClickyCal' · Jun 23, 2018

Maybe dixie could have an animal buddy/hair move set to be completely unique...that's the one way I could see it really working.

Red Arremer · Jun 23, 2018

DrArchon said:
Better.

Simon looks up at the castle, but it's Magus's Castle from Chrono Trigger and then immediately after Crono is announced to be playable.

Mind. Blown.

Even better.

Simon looks up at the castle, but it's not a Western castle, it's a Japanese styled one... the Mysterious Murasame Castle! And the announcement that the Takamaru AT was a fakeout all along, and he joins the fight along with Getsu Fuuma.

That would truly blow everyone's mind.

MexM · Jun 23, 2018

PSqueak said:
Was this before or after return to dreamland?

Cause its fucked up he made Bandana Waddle Dee and then said this.

Dry Bones when

mopinks · Jun 23, 2018

it has to begin with a shot of the castle and then slowly pan down to reveal Simon (ideally as Castlevania music subtly begins to swell)

that's why it's very important that it's Castle Dedede, the goofiest-looking castle in the universe

stan423321 · Jun 23, 2018

mopinks said:
that's not even half as funny

Given Simon, as much as relevant to history of gaming he is, isn't exactly a household name anymore, this is exactly the problem. There is no humour if you don't know he's supposed to look for actually very evil thing in the first place, and people may perceive him as an anarchist or bird hater or basically anything.

mopinks · Jun 23, 2018

people who don't already know who Simon is won't give a damn that he's in the game anyway

NotLiquid · Jun 23, 2018

PSqueak said:
Was this before or after return to dreamland?

Cause its fucked up he made Bandana Waddle Dee and then said this.

I don't think he really cares if Bandana Dee originated in his game. It was still just a Waddle Dee with a Bandana back then. I don't think he expected the character to become as popular as they did once he left the series.

L Thammy · Jun 23, 2018

What would be a true nostalgia bomb is if they included Asteroids,, Moonbugs, and Reader Rabbit as assist trophies.

PancakeFlip · Jun 23, 2018

Heartskips said:
He''s well known, but he's not particularly loved as a character. I think it made sense.

If anything, I remember fans dreading the very likely Pac-man announcement at the time.

Yeah I agree with you, I don't particular care about his inclusion, as my favorite characters are already in the series, but I don't think people would have cared if he made him an assist that just functions as his final smash.

People were also afraid that it would be the abominable adventures model.

DrArchon · Jun 23, 2018

L Thammy said:
What would be a true nostalgia bomb is if they included Asteroids,, Moonbugs, and Reader Rabbit as assist trophies.

Space. Invaders.

Get on that shit Sakurai.

Red Arremer · Jun 23, 2018

Why does a fan service trailer have to appease to people who don't know the character? To them it's just a new guy they never heard of.
Like, just look at the Ridley reveal trailer - it perfectly encapsulates what Metroid is about, channels the series' origin with Alien... And I think more people will know who Simon is than Ridley lol.

PancakeFlip said:
but I don't think people would have cared if he made him an assist that just functions as his final smash.

You should seriously stop projecting your own opinions on "people".
Obviously, if you couldn't tell from reactions in this thread, plenty of people are happy with Pac-Man's inclusion as a playable character.

mopinks · Jun 23, 2018

Space Invaders is the Square Enix assist trophy no one expected

TheDinoman · Jun 23, 2018

Taito, and in turn Space Invaders are owned by Square-Enix, aren't they?

For a game that's supposed to be all about celebrating gaming history, there's bit of a gaping hole in not having Space Invaders represented somewhere. The little pixelated alien is often used as a representative of video games as a whole in media.

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