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Fumpster

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,228
I feel like Paper Mario 64 is infinitely more enjoyable to play on a replay than TTYD is, and I think the pacing in the game is better in general too. TTYD is still fantastic but I'm in the minority opinion that 64 is superior.

Both are way better than SMRPG though. That game always felt like it was made by people that didn't really get what made Mario cool imo.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
60,037
I mean it's not even like i said it was a bad game.

It felt like a step down from SMRPG: Stunted party members (they were more accesories to mario than characters in the fight), incredibly linear (literally a straight narrative line divided in chapters), Limited equipment (but at least badges did a bit more), returning Bowser and Peach to villian and damsel in distress respectively, much lower stakes.

Sure it looked great and had nice music, but still felt a step down from SMRPG.

Meanwhile you'll notice the things i listed were all addressed on the sequel, except peach who still was a damsel in distress but also the final boss so that makes up for it, not to mention the new party members in TTYD are a bajillion times better than those in PM64, hell PM64 had only one good and memorable partner: Madame Bow, meanwhile all partners in TTYD were great and charming (i will cut you and sent a bajillion Yux on you if you tell me Flurrie sucks), overally they took what didn't work on PM64 and made it better to push the game from "okay" to "great".
b0f.gif
 

Radishhead

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,568
I'm a Nintendo fanboy and I had no idea who Geno was until speculation for the last Smash Bros game.

If Nintendo puts Geno in Smash Ultimate, I will print out a picture of Geno and eat it.
 

qq more

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,782
One day people will stop pretending PM64 was anything other than average at best. And while we're at it, inferior in everyway to SMRPG with the sole exception of maybe visual presentation.

Just admit the only good paper mario is TTYD and move on with your lives, everyone.
First played PM64 a few years ago on Wii U. It was a fantastic game. The only major knock is the MIDI-ish music in several spots. (the fucking desert song in particular)
 

BGBW

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,286
Color Splash does a ton of stuff right that should have earned it more praise, but is unfortunately bogged down in discussion by some controversial design decisions.
Well, the two major negative points I often see around are 1. the battle system 2. Toads

To address each one
  1. I don't mind the battle system and I thought some fights used it creatively. I liked that that it wasn't just a case of throwing down your most powerful attacks out of the gate, but there was a bit of puzzle solving to do. I heard Sticker Star made battles feel a bit pointless (never played it), but in Color Splash I didn't mind fighting. The game provided a way to avoid weak battles anyway. I will forever give Super Mario RPG credit for coming up with the basis of the battle system, but the truth is, there's very little thought needed to win battles.
  2. Toads are fun. In the end the Mario RPGs are held up by their writing rather than what an NPC looks like and the writing in Color Splash is top notch. If anything I found the amount of Toads rather comical - they couldn't held but find themselves ending up everywhere.
As I said in point 1, I never played Sticker Star so I went into Color Splash with no expectations. What I got was a fun adventure (which I guess is a more apt genre descriptor than RPG for it) which finally captured the paper look that I expected to see when I first played Thousand Year Door all those years ago. That post is my honest opinion.

And I should note I played Super Mario RPG far more recently than Color Splash so it's not even a case of recency bias.
 

qq more

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,782
Hi welcome to ResetERA, Shigeru Miyamoto. I love a lot of your games but man did you ruin Paper Mario.
To be fair they're not wrong? As is, at least Sticker Star would easily benefit from not having any battles because most of fights do nothing but pad length given how absurdly pointless it was to waste stickers on the enemies. The game felt so purely focused on puzzles with battles just being shoved in because it's Paper Mario. Sticker Star manages to be the one RPG that's... so damn pointlessly an RPG. Outside of boss battles, there's literally almost no progression in these fights.


I'd much rather have a traditional Paper Mario any day though.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
I feel like Paper Mario 64 is infinitely more enjoyable to play on a replay than TTYD is, and I think the pacing in the game is better in general too. TTYD is still fantastic but I'm in the minority opinion that 64 is superior.

Both are way better than SMRPG though. That game always felt like it was made by people that didn't really get what made Mario cool imo.

That's what made it so cool, though!

Paper Mario is just a basic Mario game given RPG stylings.

SMRPG is a bonkers adventure through an unfamiliar Mushroom Kingdom where Bowser isn't the main villain and instead is a playable protagonist, and instead you're beset by a gang of weirdass weapon people.

To be fair they're not wrong? As is, at least Sticker Star would easily benefit from not having any battles because most of fights do nothing but pad length given how absurdly pointless it was to waste stickers on the enemies. The game felt so purely focused on puzzles with battles just being shoved in because it's Paper Mario. Sticker Star manages to be the one RPG that's... so damn pointlessly an RPG. Outside of boss battles, there's literally almost no progression in these fights.


I'd much rather have a traditional Paper Mario any day though.

Ehh... maybe I guess. The puzzles always seemed like fluff for the actual meat of the combat. I suppose I'd give it a shot if it were a dedicated puzzle game.

People really need to stop blaming Miyamoto for this.

Maybe, but I'm gonna.
 

BGBW

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,286
Hi welcome to ResetERA, Shigeru Miyamoto. I love a lot of your games but man did you ruin Paper Mario.
Lol, people still think Miyamoto ruined Paper Mario. He gave the development team a suggestion after playing a boring build. If anyone was to "blame" it was Kensuke Tanabe, the producer of Sticker Star (and Color Splash, but as I say above I don't think that game ruined the series in any shape or form).
 

qq more

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,782
I thought Sticker Star had nice music and aesthetics and some of the puzzles were decent. Didn't care for the rest of the game, so it's a big meh.
 

Crayolan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,807
Have there been any Ashley movesets? I assume it would be Ashley and Red together. I think they have a shot too. Mostly because her AT is missing, but also she has grown into a really entertaining character lately. I could see them doing a trailer where she gets into Smash and doesn't care at all lol

Red is her staff, which I imagine would be her primary weapon so I don't think he'd show up much outside of taunts.

As for moveset ideas:
-just basic whacks with her staff or magic bursts/small explosions coming from the top of the staff as normals/aerials
-she could have a side+b or an up+B where she rides on her broom, similar to Wario's bike
-in game and wario, she's able to turn Red into an umbrella to float for a bit, that could be an up+b or an after-effect of an up+b, like Peach's umbrella or G&W's parachute
-in Game and Wario she shoots projectiles out of her fingers, she could have that
-both in Smooth Moves and in her song, she's shown to be able to change the size of things, so maybe she could have a special move which temporarily shrinks the opponent, same effect as a poison mushroom
-she's always shown shooting out some sort of electric shock from her staff to do magic stuff, that could be a smash attack or something
-she could have a move where Red quickly transforms back into his usual self to lunge forward with his trident, then transforms back. Or it could possibly be a command grab, sending Red forward to grab the opponent and bring them back to her.
-she could have an anger mechanic where if she gets hit enough times her hair turns white and all her attacks get buffed for a short time
 

qq more

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,782
Ehh... maybe I guess. The puzzles always seemed like fluff for the actual meat of the combat. I suppose I'd give it a shot if it were a dedicated puzzle game.
Likewise. Sticker Star was such a poorly designed game due to all the tact on elements that felt nothing but obligations from the game designers.

Don't get me started on Things and how obtuse some of the puzzles were.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,892
Have there been any Ashley movesets? I assume it would be Ashley and Red together. I think they have a shot too. Mostly because her AT is missing, but also she has grown into a really entertaining character lately. I could see them doing a trailer where she gets into Smash and doesn't care at all lol
I feel like making a moveset out of Ashley would be a lot easier than people give her credit for.

This is something a lot of people get hung up on when it comes to Smash newcomers but I think there's a nasty tendency in speculative brainstorming to "overthink" what characters need to do. I brought this up some pages ago; people assumed the Inklings were going to be all about territory control and ink mechanics using every weapon in the book, when in reality the answer was so much more simple. Oftentimes in Smash there's been cases where Sakurai designs fighters not outright because of some kind of move they do in their game but because of how their personalities are conveyed in their actions. DK is the prime example; he only has like two or three attacks that are actually based on maneuvers he could do in his own game and it took him until Smash 4 to get his signature dash attack, but despite this the character is made more as an amalgamation of what DK's design and personality across the years convey. Despite not punching people up until Jungle Beat happened, they made DK's move set primarily revolve around his fists because that's the biggest part of his body, and he's known for carrying a lot/having good upper body strength.

On top of that you have some scenarios where it's suggested that Sakurai looked to other fighting games as reference in molding other fighters. You can find plenty of Street Fighter influences across multiple characters, and I might be wrong on this but I think Nintendo Power wrote something about Sonic's moveset being partially inspired by Virtua Fighter (even though I could never really verify that myself personally). Sakurai is a man who does his research thoroughly, and no doubt is plenty aware of archetypes among fighting games that suit the characters he designs. There's a bunch of reference material to pull from across games that aren't even related to Nintendo (hell, who was it that pointed out that Wolf's render is basically Yamcha's pose?)

So while we're on that subject, let's look at Ashley. She's a twin-tailed withdrawn witch, has a familiar who can shapeshift, and is known for performing a lot of magic, notably of the electric variety in Game & Wario. People have suggested turning her into a debuff character, and I like the sound of that, but as far as constructing a moveset out of her, there's a perfect counterpart they can already look at for reference in molding her moveset. The character might not be a witch specifically, but they tick most other boxes.

Rachel Alucard.

Seriously, this kind of character would make perfect sense as a framework in constructing an Ashley moveset. A lot of her attacks involve shapeshifting not just her own hammerspace but also her familiars. She even has a similar familiar to Red in the form of Gii. Ashley could transform Red into a staff for magic attacks, but even use Red's physical body to bludgeon people. On top of that, Rachel uses a lot of electric/wind magic in her moveset, most notoriously for setting up traps. That kind of moveset would be great for Ashley, who also flies around often, performs electric spells and is even said in her theme song to employ shapeshifting magic.

I would love if Ashley played anything remotely similar to Rachel.
 

megachao24

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,920
Bullshit anime character some people in here inexplicably keep pushing for to a point i can no longer tell if it's shitposting or an actual delusion.
At least Idolmaster is a video game franchise (though I'll say Haruka's chances are nonexistent). That's certainly a big leg up on Goku who is constantly requested by delusional idiots who ignore Sakurai's only steadfast rule of "NO MANGA CHARACTERS."
 

Fumpster

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,228
That's what made it so cool, though!

Paper Mario is just a basic Mario game given RPG stylings.

SMRPG is a bonkers adventure through an unfamiliar Mushroom Kingdom where Bowser isn't the main villain and instead is a playable protagonist, and instead you're beset by a gang of weirdass weapon people.
Ehhh... I like when Mario games expand on the universe, but the weirdass weapon guys from Smithy's gang just aren't the direction I like. I liked the additions PM64, TTYD, and even Superstar Saga made, but RPG sword guys and a talking badass shark man just aren't my thing.

I do still like playing SMRPG though and that boss battle theme is fuckin' dope as hell
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Ashley with a transformable demon would be baller.

Ehhh... I like when Mario games expand on the universe, but the weirdass weapon guys from Smithy's gang just aren't the direction I like. I liked the additions PM64, TTYD, and even Superstar Saga made, but RPG sword guys and a talking badass shark man just aren't my thing.

I do still like playing SMRPG though and that boss battle theme is fuckin' dope as hell

The best part of the Mario RPGs was in making the universe a more developed place, like how TTYD takes place in a crime ridden pirate town in the grip of the mafia, which is why the latest batch of M&L and PM games have been such a downer.
 

qq more

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,782
I wonder what a new F-Zero or Earthbound stage would be? They're the only ones without a new stage in Smash Wii U, but they're not the only ones with a single new stage in combined versions (Star Fox, Donkey Kong, Metroid, Yoshi) so I wonder if I'm underestimating their chances to get a new stage this time.

Y-Yes, I still believe we will see at least 20 new stages including the 5 we saw.
 

mopinks

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,631
TTYD's obnoxious backtracking is just as bad as any bad thing in any other Paper Mario game

it just gets a pass because Vivian rules
 

qq more

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,782
I'm kind of hoping that Gogoat is replaced by a Rambi Assist Trophy, lol.
If I'm not mistaken, some Pokeball Pokemon and ATs do share similar gimmicks. Like Skullkid and Palkia for example.

TTYD's obnoxious backtracking is just as bad as any bad thing in any other Paper Mario game

it just gets a pass because Vivian rules
The backtracking was pretty bad in TTYD yeah. Though the rest of the game was excellent so that made up for it.

I need to replay the game sometime though, it's been like... 12 years I think.
 

brinstar

User requested ban
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,367
I feel like making a moveset out of Ashley would be a lot easier than people give her credit for.

This is something a lot of people get hung up on when it comes to Smash newcomers but I think there's a nasty tendency in speculative brainstorming to "overthink" what characters need to do. I brought this up some pages ago; people assumed the Inklings were going to be all about territory control and ink mechanics using every weapon in the book, when in reality the answer was so much more simple. Oftentimes in Smash there's been cases where Sakurai designs fighters not outright because of some kind of move they do in their game but because of how their personalities are conveyed in their actions. DK is the prime example; he only has like two or three attacks that are actually based on maneuvers he could do in his own game and it took him until Smash 4 to get his signature dash attack, but despite this the character is made more as an amalgamation of what DK's design and personality across the years convey. Despite not punching people up until Jungle Beat happened, they made DK's move set primarily revolve around his fists because that's the biggest part of his body, and he's known for carrying a lot/having good upper body strength.

On top of that you have some scenarios where it's suggested that Sakurai looked to other fighting games as reference in molding other fighters. You can find plenty of Street Fighter influences across multiple characters, and I might be wrong on this but I think Nintendo Power wrote something about Sonic's moveset being partially inspired by Virtua Fighter (even though I could never really verify that myself personally). Sakurai is a man who does his research thoroughly, and no doubt is plenty aware of archetypes among fighting games that suit the characters he designs. There's a bunch of reference material to pull from across games that aren't even related to Nintendo (hell, who was it that pointed out that Wolf's render is basically Yamcha's pose?)

So while we're on that subject, let's look at Ashley. She's a twin-tailed withdrawn witch, has a familiar who can shapeshift, and is known for performing a lot of magic, notably of the electric variety in Game & Wario. People have suggested turning her into a debuff character, and I like the sound of that, but as far as constructing a moveset out of her, there's a perfect counterpart they can already look at for reference in molding her moveset. The character might not be a witch specifically, but they tick most other boxes.


Rachel Alucard.

Seriously, this kind of character would make perfect sense as a framework in constructing an Ashley moveset. A lot of her attacks involve shapeshifting not just her own hammerspace but also her familiars. She even has a similar familiar to Red in the form of Gii. Ashley could transform Red into a staff for magic attacks, but even use Red's physical body to bludgeon people. On top of that, Rachel uses a lot of electric/wind magic in her moveset, most notoriously for setting up traps. That kind of moveset would be great for Ashley, who also flies around often, performs electric spells and is even said in her theme song to employ shapeshifting magic.

I would love if Ashley played anything remotely similar to Rachel.
Hah, Rachel is exactly what I had in mind for her too actually
 

Fumpster

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,228
Ashley with a transformable demon would be baller.



The best part of the Mario RPGs was in making the universe a more developed place, like how TTYD takes place in a crime ridden pirate town in the grip of the mafia, which is why the latest batch of M&L and PM games have been such a downer.
I'm definitely with you there, I really like getting to see the more slummy sides of the Mushroom Kingdom and stuff like the BeanBean Kingdom that make the world feel more fleshed out.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
That was the part where we had to find someone and we had to go through every major area of the game, right? Fuck that part.

You had to do it again for a sidequest too.

I'm definitely with you there, I really like getting to see the more slummy sides of the Mushroom Kingdom and stuff like the BeanBean Kingdom that make the world feel more fleshed out.

Yeah after TTYD, SPM and Galaxy Mario games just kind of started to be really standard in their world design, with none of the out-there places like Rogueport, Flipside or the Beanbean Kingdom. It wasn't until Odyssey that there was some spark shocked back into the franchise.
 

wildvine47

Member
Feb 20, 2018
1,094
It's definitely not 15 newcomers lol. But, the trailers do get uploaded in a ton of different languages for different regions.
 

y2kyle89

Member
Mar 16, 2018
9,587
Mass
It's 1 video of Erdrick and 14 videos of Toriyama lighting Dragonball Mangas on fire to light his and Sakurai's cigars as they laugh.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Would they upload Gamescom videos three weeks in advance? Have they done that before? I genuinely have no idea.
 
OP
OP
IntelliHeath

IntelliHeath

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,210
There are surprisingly few non-derivative secondary characters in Smash Bros., and considering her role in the WarioWare series, Ashley doesn't really fit in with any of them. Her inclusion obviously wouldn't be impossible, but it would be unprecedented. From my perspective, WarioWare is a relatively minor series, and Wario is the "star" of every single entry, so there's no need for a second unique newcomer.

I do wonder if you are going to continue with your bad luck with the characters that you per say that they wouldn't be in, like Daisy, Isabelle (if the rumor is legit) and then probably Ashley? :P

I'm joking if you can't tell
 
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