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Garrod Ran

self-requested ban
Banned
Mar 23, 2018
16,203
Tales of Arise is poised to be a big breakout for the Tales series. It's reviewing well, scoring well, all that.

With this rise in acclaim, it stands to reason that the series should, in turn, evolve and become its best self

Unfortunately, Tales of Arise holds itself back in one regard: the game still indulges in the tradition of the hot springs scene, a comedy trope mired in sexism and objectification.

You can watch them here, there's two, one where the male party members are bathing and one where the female party members are the bathers.



To TL;DR anyone who doesn't want to subject themselves to it, the first scene features the men of the party bathing when the protagonist, Alphen, leaves to ask Shionne, one of the women, for an item that will heat up the bath more. He accidentally leaves his towel behind and exposes himself to the women. In the second scene, the women are bathing and two of the men, Law and Dohalim, are trying to peek on them. Alphen objects, and the all three of them get zapped by a magic spell. Both Law and Dohalim portray peeping as "a rite of manhood" and such.

I shouldn't have to explain why either of these scenes are unfunny and gross but there's a number of things with these scene that particularly stand out to me.

The first is some of the character ages here. Rinwell, the mage girl, is 14, the youngest in the party. Dohalim, the red headed man, is the oldest member of the party, is a 28 year old man. While "perverted older party member" isn't a new trope, it's still certainly an unwelcome one, and one that needs to be called out and moved past.

Furthermore, one of the game's ideas of a joke is Rinwell, who I have to emphasize is 14 year old, a literal child, being exposed to a grown man's genitals. Even accidentally, this is a traumatic experience for a child and can be pretty damaging for people in real life. As unfortunate as it is, I do have a friend that was triggered by the scene, as it forcibly dredged up a memory of her being sexually harassed at 13 by a flasher. Other women in my sphere of acquaintances have said that the scene had a similar effect for them as well, forcibly reminding them of unpleasant situations in which they were harassed.

(the following convo screen is being posted with permission)

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Similarly, the game goes out of its way to show you Rinwell's shock and confusion at this unsolicited pair of dick and balls that she was made to witness.

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This sort of humor is not only worn-out, gross, and tasteless, it is genuinely harmful and I do think that Bandai Namco ought to be called out for their carelessness.

Furthermore, the sexism at play in the second scene epitomizes the sort of toxic masculinity that is, has been, and will continue to be a massive problem that women face, and it does nothing but reflect poorly on the game, its writers, and their characters. Why would we want to like a pair of men who view sexual harassment as a man's right?


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With these issues being relevant now more than ever, in all parts of the world, this sort of writing is simply indefensible and cannot stand for a series that seeks to become more prolific than its ever been.

If you plan on buying Tales of Arise, please don't turn a blind eye to these sorts of things. The Tales games are known for being Very Anime and tropey as hell, but this kind of tired, harmful writing cannot be tolerated. Please make your voices heard that this is not content that should be in the series, and that Bandai Namco and those working on the series need to do better.
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
Eurgh the hot springs one is easily one of my least favourite anime tropes, it's never really funny no matter how it plays out. And all that cringey rite of manhood shit as an excuse for being a creep, I hate it
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,134
This is a good writeup. Hot spring scenes came up in another thread recently, so I'll just copy in my thoughts from there:

I honestly don't think it's supposed to be funny most of the time. It's supposed to provide a scenario to justify exploiting the female characters for the titillation of the audience while also presenting the work as squeaky clean, all just good fun. That's why you always see the girls bathing in these scenarios - it wouldn't be necessary if the point was just an embarrassing situation or shocked reactions, you can do that with just sound.

Gundam 0083 has a character who quickly gains infamy among the base for being a creep, similar to what you might find for comedy in a lot of other anime, but there he's a low-stakes rival for the hero to clown on. One of the big differences in presentation is that we're told that he gets handsy, we hear women around the base warning each other about him, but he doesn't do this stuff onscreen and we don't really get rewarded by any sort of sexual images as a result of this behaviour.
 

MrSaturn99

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,540
I live in a giant bucket.
Gross, but not unexpected -- this has been a series staple since as far back as Symphonia at the very least.

Regardless, thanks for the heads up; I'm sorry about your friend.

(For those curious, it seems they're optional, thankfully.)
 
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Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,712
Canada
Literally can't remember one of these where the punchline isn't the same. Aren't the same "jokes" tiring by now?? >_>

A petition from parents about the seeing Shizuka (from Doraemon) so often in the bath was met with little fanfare or change, the response was actually quite apathetic.
I get that Japan has a way different hygiene culture and treat nudity differently than here; but the intent of these scenes is way too often the same with a girl getting perved on by a guy.
 
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boomtrick

Banned
Jun 30, 2021
787
Sadly anime is filled with shitty tropes so "anime games" will too.

Also not gonna change. Anime fans are more sexist/perverted than their gamer counterparts.

Like I find gigguk hilarious but the dudes content is a perfect example of everything wrong with anime.
 

Freezasaurus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
57,091
Wut? They're still putting these sequences in the game? I know they've had a hot springs in like every Tales game, but it's time to stop.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Thanks for laying it out.

Is it avoidable, at least? Or is it on the critical path?
 

Deleted member 3208

Oct 25, 2017
11,934
Not surprised. Expected this to happen. Tales is like Persona and the Kiseki series in this regard; filled with the worst anime tropes.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,467
Barely. He just tells them "Are you sure you guys wanna do this?", they say "Yeah, rite of manhood blah blah!" and he shrugs and says "if you say so". Later when he gets zapped he says "I had no part in it I swear...". He doesn't try to stop it at all.

I guess some clowns will try to defend this by arguing that the women "punish" the pervs by zapping them, but I'd say to them, save it, it's still sexist garbage and one of the most tired tropes ever.
 

Tigerfog

Member
Oct 28, 2017
767
Montreal
Gross, but not unexpected -- this has been a series staple since as far back as Symphonia at the very least.

Regardless, thanks for the heads up; I'm sorry about your friend.

(For those curious, it seems they're optional, thankfully.)
They had it since the first game, Phantasia. :(
I don't remember Destiny 1 having one. Eternia kinda did but it's more like a girl has to get an item in the men's changing room. She sees a guy coming out wearing a towel and she runs away flustered.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,947
I mentioned the "girl is embarrassed when stomach rumbles" trope and sexist DLC outfits in my review, I didn't even realise there was a hot spring scene!
 

MonadL

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,895
I think the worst part is that it's literally the same joke every fucking time. At least do something new with it.
 

fulltimepanda

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,825
JRPGs will stay plagued by shitty anime tropes until the rest of their media landscape catches up sadly. It's a shame really as this is the sort of shit that turned me right off Symphonia a few years ago.
 

nsilvias

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,019
in the age of endless rule34 idk why devs feel the need to include this in their games anymore. fans will make sfm and hentai anyways of their waifus. let them do this stuff on some shady booru site out of site
 

MrSaturn99

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,540
I live in a giant bucket.
Thanks for laying it out.

Is it avoidable, at least? Or is it on the critical path?

It does seem optional, yes -- the video shows you can decline to enter.

As seen with the Phantasia correction above, I can't speak for every Tales game, but out of all the ones I've played this nonsense was always relegated to side-quests, so I'm not surprised that's the case here. This shit should be called out, regardless.
 
Mar 18, 2020
2,434
It's a mainstream JRPG, it's going to have a hot springs scene. If you met the people writing and directing these things you'd see why it always gets put in. They honestly find them funny…
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Barely. He just tells them "Are you sure you guys wanna do this?", they say "Yeah, rite of manhood blah blah!" and he shrugs and says "if you say so". Later when he gets zapped he says "I had no part in it I swear...". He doesn't try to stop it at all.

I guess some clowns will try to defend this by arguing that the women "punish" the pervs by zapping them, but I'd say to them, save it, it's still sexist garbage and one of the most tired tropes ever.
Yeah I don't get that defense.

Not only is sexual assault still really fucking traumatizing, it's really fucked up that we keep treating it like boys will be boys fun, that perfectly nice and heroic dudes will also just straight up sexually harass women and they're supposed to be funny comedy lads.

Fanservice can exist tastefully and for fun (and you know the ground rule for that being "the characters themselves are having a good time") but it's outrageous that this kind of game can constantly peddle something as nakedly pandering as "it's okay to peep on girls, it makes you a randy stallion of a man."
 
Aug 13, 2019
3,599
Can't say I didn't expect it, but I'm sad to see it nonetheless. The sooner this disgusting trope dies off, the better. I'm sorry that your friend had to go through that OP.
 
OP
OP
Garrod Ran

Garrod Ran

self-requested ban
Banned
Mar 23, 2018
16,203
Yeah I don't get that defense.

Not only is sexual assault still really fucking traumatizing, it's really fucked up that we keep treating it like boys will be boys fun, that perfectly nice and heroic dudes will also just straight up sexually harass women and they're supposed to be funny comedy lads.

Fanservice can exist tastefully and for fun (and you know the ground rule for that being "the characters themselves are having a good time") but it's outrageous that this kind of game can constantly peddle something as nakedly pandering as "it's okay to peep on girls, it makes you a randy stallion of a man."
I'm actually reminded that Tales of Destiny had a fairly innocuous hot springs scene, for the guys at the least, don't remember anything with the women.

Rather than doing anything like peeping the game frames it like the guys are all measuring dicks while in the pool, but it turns out that they actually had a snowman contest and were comparing those instead. That's a cute take on things at least
 

Holmes

AVALANCHE
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,351
Vesperia did hot springs the best. I mean, there was still the pervert trying to peek trope of course which sucked, but they had other things going on. In one event, everyone took on a different role in the spa because they were understaffed and got unique costumes befitting of their roles. I thought that was fun.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
I'm actually reminded that Tales of Destiny had a fairly innocuous hot springs scene, for the guys at the least, don't remember anything with the women.

Rather than doing anything like peeping the game frames it like the guys are all measuring dicks while in the pool, but it turns out that they actually had a snowman contest and were comparing those instead. That's a cute take on things at least
Yeah like, you can do scenes like this (I mean I'm not the one who gets to hash out what is or isn't a good example), you just can't do them by starting out with the premise of "our heroic stud talks about how sexually harassing his female friends makes him a man."
 

Lord Azrael

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,976
Fucking gross. And the dialog is cringy and amateurish as fuck to boot. Really sorry about what happened to your friend
 

Doomburrito

Member
Feb 9, 2018
1,162
I'll say this, those cut scenes made me go from interested into not interested pretty darn quick.
 

jman2050

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,842
Anime gonna anime. I like to think most people are sick of it at this point even amongst what's supposed to be their "target audience" but they still keep doing it so I'm probably completely wrong.

Like, if your work is designed to be arousing or perverse from the word go then whatever, you do you, but this kind of thing being so pervasive in otherwise more benign works is, at best, annoying.
 

BassForever

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,995
CT
What? They clearly are shown to be light-hearted and comedic. The hell are you on about?

My point was that they include these scenes to justify blatant fan service to "excite" the player/audience. The comedy is just an excuse to justify the scene as something more then blatant pandering.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
My point was that they include these scenes to justify blatant fan service to "excite" the player/audience. The comedy is just an excuse to justify the scene as something more then blatant pandering.
That's true, the point is "have naked girls on screen" (and I may be overstepping my boundaries, but I wonder how often this happens in service of having fanservice of female characters but they still get angry to tell the otaku audience they're "still pure"), but it's presented as a light-hearted jokey moment of no consequence. It's supposed to be funny in the sense that "being funny" is why sexually harassing women is acceptable.
 

Kewlmyc

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
26,784
Tales loves its stupid anime tropes. It's been in all of the games I can remember. I don't see them ever not including it.
 

Adventureracing

The Fallen
Nov 7, 2017
8,062
Oof and that dialogue as well. Even if it wasn't offensive I just don't know how people can cringe their way through the awful dialogue in these games.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,134
That's true, the point is "have naked girls on screen" (and I may be overstepping my boundaries, but I wonder how often this happens in service of having fanservice of female characters but they still get angry to tell the otaku audience they're "still pure"), but it's presented as a light-hearted jokey moment of no consequence. It's supposed to be funny in the sense that "being funny" is why sexually harassing women is acceptable.
I think you've got it. This happens in works made for young men and nerds which are meant to be titillating but sexless. I don't think this kind of comedy happens often in works that will actually have dramatic sex scenes.
 
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Jaq'or

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Jun 6, 2018
1,522
Ugh, this is so gross. Also, sorry about your friend, OP. I hope they're doing okay...
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,321
I had a slight interest in this game before but, nah, I think I'm fine. Even after all the issues you listed it just isn't my cup of tea to have obvious sex stuff shoved into my face under the guise of "harmless comedy." Thanks, OP.
 

PAFenix

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Nov 21, 2019
14,899
I swear you can make a bingo card out of how these scenes play out.

-One Super Serious character not wanting a part of it, but not stopping it.

-Right of passage or "you're not a real man if you don't"

-Chest size comparisons during an eavesdropping sequence or while the peeping is being attempted.

-Dudes get caught and punished. Bonus points if it's a wooden tub getting thrown at someone's face.
 

Rellodex

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,186
I swear you can make a bingo card out of how these scenes play out.

-One Super Serious character not wanting a part of it, but not stopping it.

-Right of passage or "you're not a real man if you don't"

-Chest size comparisons during an eavesdropping sequence or while the peeping is being attempted.

-Dudes get caught and punished. Bonus points if it's a wooden tub getting thrown at someone's face.

I remember a long time ago sitting in a hostel's shared living area, listening to an extremely drunk guy deliver some sort of speech to the room that the reason all anime was "the same" was because the demand far exceeded the supply.

And I think he might have been right.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,893
So let me get this straight... half of the main party members (the guys) are all unequivocally attempting to non-consensually spy on the other half of the party (the girls) while they're bathing in the nude under some pretense of privacy? And one of the girls is fourteen?

Yeesh. A college roommate of mine once tried to spy on a female friend I had invited over through the window while she was showering. I caught him before he could, but I was so pissed that I wanted to clock him. There was nothing cute or funny about it—I felt awful that I had invited a good friend of mine into a place where she apparently wasn't safe. Not to mention all the respect I lost for my roommate.

I don't play/watch a ton of anime, so while I've seen a few instances of this scenario before, I can't recall any where the actual main characters you're playing as/rooting for are explicit sex predators. It's usually some sort of accident or honest mistake (which is still super lame, but at least doesn't tie an albatross of intentional sexual exploitation around the core protaganist(s)' neck for the rest of the game).

I'll still probably play Arise at some point, but I'm not optimistic about finding any sort of enjoyment in the dissonance of "these are the heroes!" parts of the story when the three dudes are voyeuristic sex creeps.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,345
It's telling that I finished watching Chojin Sentai Jetman the other day and that had one of those hot spring scenes in it. That's a 30 year old show and we're still doing this.
 

Spidervan

Member
Jun 11, 2021
217
Aren't these developers called out every year and nothing changes when it comes from japan? All this means is that they'll just stop bringing them to the west like they did with that other moe garbage stuff, it won't actually stop them from making the games.
 

entrydenied

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
7,622
Aren't these developers called out every year and nothing changes when it comes from japan? All this means is that they'll just stop bringing them to the west like they did with that other moe garbage stuff, it won't actually stop them from making the games.
Eventually they might want to care since overseas sales potential has been increasing over the years while the Japanese market continues to shrink. Especially if you are not Nintendo or a Nintendo focused 3ed party company.
 

Tofd

Member
Jul 8, 2018
451
I doubt this would impact overseas sales. I'd say most fans of the genre don't actually mind this and similar tropes.