It's not like that at all. He's literally thumbs upping the Chinese government for censorship while they are also throwing people into gulags. That's fucking demented.
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Tarantino refuses to recut OUATIH to placate China, who have banned the film’s release
- Thread starter Scullibundo
- Start date
No I'm not, if you actually read what I posted in the thread rather than make such baseless assumptions. You're literally fabricating lies.
Later in the thread you mentioned deplatforming. You can be intensely critical of portrayal of Asians in OUATIH without supporting censorship (no this is not deplatforming) and without supporting a totalitarian regime.
I understand what you really meant was more or less a sentiment of fuck Tarantino, but I'm sure you realize how bad the message and optics got distorted by the last sentence.
I thought you were straight up trolling until I saw your follow up posts to continue the discussion.
You have to realize that at that time, the board really jumped on me and started really bombarding me with their hot takes. My emotions really got the best of me and I was throwing out my own hot takes and probably didn't use the best choice of words. I know part of my frustrations was knowing people would downplay mine and many other Asian concerns about this topic, but I was really dismayed when people tried to claim I support genocide and rape of other people.
After I had some time to calm down and actually write earnestly, it was definitely a better conversation. I expect more people to just take the original reactions at face value and just continue to throw their hot takes, but I do want to say I do appreciate you taking the time to read the rest of my posts.
The scene you, and so many others, are angry about is clearly a biased, unreliable narrator moment in the film. Two other moments posit Bruce Lee as a nice, kind, inspirational teacher.
Which you'd know If you saw the film, but internet crusades am I right?
So basically you're saying that even when minorities tell you that something is racist you are still trying to insist it's not racist? Got it. I guess we're all just part of the SJWs of the internet.
I have a hard time seeing how that scene was supposed to fantasy. It was Cliff recalling a past incident which lead to him being blacklisted by the Green Hornet stunt team. Nothing about his characterisation suggests he's an unreliable narrator.
Lee was definitely played up as a joke in the fight scene but I must say his portrayal also had a certain magnetism to him and it was nice to see him teaching Sebring and Tate.
Lee was definitely played up as a joke in the fight scene but I must say his portrayal also had a certain magnetism to him and it was nice to see him teaching Sebring and Tate.
He's a joke in the sense that you're supposed to be amused, but not in the sense that it suggests he's a fake or that he doesn't have great skills. It's just that he's depicted as arrogant. Pitt's character is intended to also be skilled and they don't really have much of a proper fight. At the start, Lee delivers a kick that knocks Pitt's character down. He asks Lee to do the same kick again, which he agrees to, then Brad counters it and throws Lee down. The more freeform fighting right at the end is very short and indecisive.
Cliff is also a fictional character.
Bruce Lee was well known to have a temper and be a bit of a hot head at times. So not sure how that's racist. Also the movie is all about what if situations, playing on the fun of theoreticals. I'm not sure why you have such a strong opinion on this film and pro China stance here. But it doesn't seem to be too rationally rooted.
Do I recall correctly that anyone on here who admitted to voting for Bolsonaro just got summarily banned?
But it's fine to be a shill for China, who obviously aren't a democracy and commit human rights atrocity after atrocity?
But it's fine to be a shill for China, who obviously aren't a democracy and commit human rights atrocity after atrocity?
I'm not mad that Bruce Lee is hot headed. I'm mad that they made him look like a clown and the audiences laughed at him. Asians have always been used for comedic effect. Also, there is the underlying issue of using a minority as a prop to make a white man seem like a badass.
I think the issue isn't our complaints, but rather not enough people care to understand why we complain about this type of racism.
I also remember bans for people who deny racism has happened when minorities tell them the thing is racist and here we are with a bunch of people excusing racism...
He's a joke in the sense that you're supposed to be laughing at him. The exaggerated and whimpering noises got a lot of laughs at my screening. They were played up for comic effect.
Yea... I really don't remember anyone laughing at Bruce Lee in that scene. It was more of a oh man! Could you imagine if someone that good was matched by someone who's supposed to be an aging washed up ignored nobody. It came on the heels of scenes where people were spewing crap about cliffs backstory, how supposedly he's ex military, supposedly he killed his wife etc. Because nobody really knows anything about him. It has nothing to do with Bruce Lee being Asian, just his well known martial prowess. The reason the scene works well is because everyone knows how incredible Lee was.
You said you haven't seen the film correct? I really don't understand how you can possibly have this strong of an opinion on it in that case.
What stereotype is being pushed here? The stereotype that Asians are bad at martial arts?
Somehow I don't think people who have seen the film are going to be banned, given you haven't even seen the film and are pushing a narrative you have absolutely no context for whatsoever.
The worst part is the racism is there and you know it is, but people are like "I'm not racist but..." like the people who are blaming Bruce Lee's daughter for defending her father's legacy and reputation and insulting her directly.
Like you said, the movie is using a real life person and making him look stupid for laughs and to make a white guy look cool. Not just anyone, either, but a very famous Asian actor who was well known by everyone for being nothing at all like Tarantino portrayed him. Also he's dead so he can't defend himself and everyone is attacking his daughter for doing it in his stead. Considering Tarantino has a history of white saviour bullshit and American worship, it's not a good look.
I guess, though, between the hard on people have for Tarantino and their eagerness to shit on China at every opportunity, they don't care about the actual issue and just want an excuse to shout "fuck China".
Like Bruce Lee's daughter herself said people were laughing at him in that scene. Is she a liar?
When you're so caught up in your internet outrage that you actually side with authoritarian regimes.
You should rescind the good going china thing at least. Because, you know, concentration camps.
I don't think he is portrayed as weak at all. His first kick was fucking badass and send Pitt flying who is buff af in this. Then he counters the second which doesn't hurt Lee much and then they are forced to draw immediately by the crew.
That's really not an issue I feel. The most problematic aspect is hamming up Lee's trademark antics for laughs. But right after Pitt who is laughing along the audience receives a massive drop kick and flies backwards shutting him up.
The rest of the film portrays him fondly in flashbacks.
So I think it mostly works and is in line with QT's trademark style of humour. I do agree playing up his antics to make people laugh at him might be racially insensitive and historically inaccurate, but at least intent wise it didn't seem to come from the racial angle for me given how the scene develops. More that even an icon like him can have a moment of arrogance when you are in fact pretty much invincible. Which the film doesn't really dispute with its outcome.
In context of the film's themes I would say the intent was to say "this dude is an amazing fighter, but for Hollywood he put on a fassade and didn't take some of his opponents seriously". The film is all about romanticising and dismantling this particular phase of Hollywood with its fairytale setup.
The first scene has a grown white man crying into the arms of another dude at his failing career. So outside Cliff being a badass I also didn't get much white power trips from it
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Depicting Bruce Lee as boastful is racist to Asian people? What?
Meh.
Everyone involved in this decision making sucks real bad. The Bruce Lee shit in the movie is stupid and apparently pretty hurtful to his family and Tarantino has been nothing but a huge dick about it. The Chinese government doesn't actually care about representation, they just care about making power moves.
Unrelated but related: when can we finally just admit that Tarrantino is an obvious racist? The racial slurs he says in Pulp Fiction alone should be a huge tip off by now.
Everyone involved in this decision making sucks real bad. The Bruce Lee shit in the movie is stupid and apparently pretty hurtful to his family and Tarantino has been nothing but a huge dick about it. The Chinese government doesn't actually care about representation, they just care about making power moves.
Unrelated but related: when can we finally just admit that Tarrantino is an obvious racist? The racial slurs he says in Pulp Fiction alone should be a huge tip off by now.
A scene where he goes 1-1 with Pitt's character, and then the only other scenes featuring him show him as a thoughtful, wise instructor to Tate and others. Any sounds he made in that scene I've heard him make more frequent and louder in many of his films.
Also, fuck China.
Also, fuck China.
This lol. People think Bruce should have knocked the shit out of Cliff and not even been close lol.
Is it possible to think that particular scene in the movie can be problematic to some people, Tarantino might be a racist asshole given his insist on using the n word in his other movies, and the Chinese government is shitty at the same time?
Like I think Tarantino is a great director, but given what we know now, he's probably also a misogynistic and racist asshole.
Also Bruce Lee is considered a hero by some for confronting the racism in Hollywood at the time and subverting the stereotype that Chinese people are physically weak. It's not that hard to see why people might have a problem with the scene. Just imagine how people might feel if it was Ali not Bruce in that scene instead.
Like I think Tarantino is a great director, but given what we know now, he's probably also a misogynistic and racist asshole.
Also Bruce Lee is considered a hero by some for confronting the racism in Hollywood at the time and subverting the stereotype that Chinese people are physically weak. It's not that hard to see why people might have a problem with the scene. Just imagine how people might feel if it was Ali not Bruce in that scene instead.
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That scene could have been handled better, but no way in hell should an artist have to redo their work to appease a country like China.
I disagree. While Cliff's win wasn't definitive he gets in the better shot (tossing him into the car) and Zoe Bell's character actually comes out and makes the comment that Cliff is kicking Bruce's ass.
Tarantino clearly wanted to establish Cliff's prowess as a fighter and the implication was that he was winning the fight before it was stopped.
Like I stated earlier, I loved the film but I think they could have done so much more with the Bruce character given that he was, historically speaking, interwoven (albeit peripherally) with the events surrounding the Tate murder.
QT really makes Bruce look like a clown in that scene and worse, he excludes him from any further involvement in the film (outside of those brief training montages with Tate) and missed a golden opportunity to let Bruce fuck up at least one of the Manson assholes in the third act.
And Moh was soooo fucking dead on as Bruce, I really would have loved to see more of the guy…
Depicting one of the most influential and iconic Asian martial artists as a jobber for the white protagonist isn't the greatest of looks. Personally, I don't think there was any racist motivation by QT, I just think the optics look bad and that particular scene could have been handled better.
By letting Bruce Lee win? That's what it seems to boil down to. Bruce kicked him on the ground, Cliff then made use of his weight advantage, Bruce gets up and then they go toe to toe with a slight advantage to Cliff. That's all, I don't see any jobbing in that. All it was done for was to establish the skills of a fictional character. What better way to do it than to make him go toe to toe against, as you said, an iconic martial arists people know about, and who on top of that, actually fits in the movie. I'm not saying they couldn't have fitted Bruce better into the overall story, but that moment? It was reasonably done.
It really just seems like people are upset Bruce didn't win against a fictional character. Calling that racism is kinda stupid, sorry.
Again, I don't think it was racist but the optics aren't the greatest and regardless, diminishing the very real skills of an Asian American icon to bolster a fictional character seems rather unfortunate. Granted, many people – including people on this very forum – share the ignorant view that his depiction in this film is relatively accurate when in reality Bruce's athletic and martial arts acumen were so impressive people like Chuck Norris and Joe Lewis have admitted he actually improved their respective games as pro fighters.
Worse, the implication is that Cliff was winning the fight when it was broken up, so there's that.
Still, I love the film. I just wish they hadn't done Bruce dirty.
He and his legacy deserved better.
Holy crap you guys with this winning or not winning argument. The point is not that Bruce Lee should've won, it's much more than this. I was at the theater and people were laughing at Lee because he was a funny little cocky Chinese guy trying to beat the cool white guy, as a Chinese guy I didn't expect to go to see a movie and feel like shit because of my race in 2019. Tarantino wasn't respectful to the real Bruce Lee with his portrayal and he can't even admit he was wrong, despite being proven wrong. He can do whatever he likes with his movies, but he clearly doesn't know much Bruce Lee.
So you don't see people laughing at Cliff mocking Bruce Lee's iconic sound? Or the monologue that makes him sound like a clown afterwards?
Article is not evidence, barely counts as proper journalism. Unnamed sources, no comments from either Tarantino or Lee, and the only one saying anything is Sony who admits they don't know what Chinese authorities are objecting.
Why do they do it?
This theme falls apart when the guy who "breaks" the facade is a fictional character created to enable a fantasy version of history.
We know there's a complaint and we know the government is objecting and having the release delayed. The simple explanation is those things are related.
So was Zoe's line about Bruce getting his ass kicked.
I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong, I just don't think the idea of the fight being a draw was all that clear.
Ethnic cleansing Authoritarian and Totalitarian regime that wants to see the entire eastern hemisphere subjegated under its thumb...
I don't really need to be there to see the audience reaction. There were many in the previous thread and in this thread who have confirmed that audiences have laughed at Bruce.
I understand the intent of the scene, but I hope you also understand where I'm coming from. In so many movies, white people, in particular males, have always been shown to be better than minorities. Here we have one of the few positive media personalities we have being used to legitimize a white guy and that doesn't sit well with many of us.
With that said, I don't think the fact I haven't seen the movie should be used to dismiss my opinion of the movie. I cam always turn around and say, have you experienced the type of racism and stereotyping that some of us have experienced? Obviously many haven't and yet they feel they have the authority to tell us that what we see and experience is not racism.
Not that they are bad at martial arts, but rather, that Asians can be laughed at due to their mannerisms and that they are the other, aka foreigners.
I know Bruce Lee was not perfect and he had flaws. I just don't want to see him used as a tool to prop up white masculinity and superiority.
I do think people who are denying the racial undertones of the movie should be banned. If this was a thread about the European cosplayer and people continually came in denying that is racism, they would have been banned.
And if you want to talk about context, do you have any experience of the Asian American way of life? We are not a monolith and there will be those who don't share our view, but the fact many posters on this board have shared their experience only to be ignored.
So that question about having context, I really wonder if you're just not self aware, fail to see the irony of the question, or just don't emphasize with the experiences of minorities.
When you're so caught up with righteous indignation you make drive by troll posts.
I'm not going to change it because I'm in no way supporting concentration camps. If people are going to read it that way rather than take the time to go through the thread, then I already know the preconceived notions on Asians they have. If they want to use the "You don't have the context of the movie and thus your opinion should be invalid" card, then I'll say the same about their opinions on this subject is they're not going to take a look at the context of this thread.
The problem is that this really isn't the first time Asians have had to face such media characterizations. Hollywood has a history of this and I'm done giving the benefit of the doubt to white male directors, especially when an article came out stating Tarantino was originally going to have Pitt's character beat Bruce Lee.
There are quite a few examples such as Jet Li not being able to kiss Aaliyah in Romeo Must Die because that's not what Asian males do on screen and Ken Jeong in the Hangover coming out of the trunk naked for comedic purposes. There is also the general lack of positive Asian male representation in Hollywood.
Yes, we've heard all the artistic reasons why a scene went the way it did, but those scenes are no less harmful to them.
Read my responses please. Thanks.