Trans identity is not conditional on the person being good or respectable...

[Inugami]

(Edit)




There is starting to be a trend on social media where if a trans individual turns out to be a terrible person, the first move is to misgender them as an insult... It's mostly corrected on era in the discussions we've had on Caitlyn Jenner, but there are other trans people besides her and a recent very bad example has brought out people in force in many online spaces.

I've heard excuses of "(that person) doesn't deserve to have their gender respected." or "(that person) is just faking being trans" to get support or sympathy, without anything to back up their statement. Trans and NB individuals are watching these events unfold, and what we see is that we aren't 'really' men/women/NB even to people who say they support us and agree with us. That we are being humored or that our identities are conditional to falling into line in other aspects.

You do not have to respect awful people because they are trans individuals. You don't have to like or support them individually... but by focusing on their gender while tearing them down, you are also harming every other trans person who've done nothing wrong, because you are reinforcing that we are fundamentally not real.

 

[Rosebud]

Yes, that's AWFUL.

We all hate Trump but we don't call him "her" because that would be stupid, so stop this nonsense.

 

[Cantaim]

I saw this happening when Christine Chandler was trending on Twitter this week (probably the event you are referring too). She is a monstrous human if she really did do what she said she did. But that does not give anyone the right to be transphobic and misgender her.

*To not derail this thread if you don't know what happened with her please do not ask. It will derail the thread.

 

[Faceless_Caesar]

You can disagree with someone while still giving them dignity and respect as a human being.

 

[shaneo632]

Yeah, you're going to seem like a massively disingenuous "ally" if you start deadnaming/misgendering bad people.

 

[Saganator]

Yep. I can't stand Caitlyn Jenner but I still refer to her as her

 

[Cenauru]

Yeah I've seen it a bunch on twitter and it's kind of showing how many people are "allies with conditions", like it's some sort of contract because we don't deserve to be seen as ourselves unless an ally gets the feelgoods from it.

 

[Laephis]

Seems like bigots are always trying to find new "appropriate" ways to express their bigotry. Shitty people will have enough to criticize, their gender should never be a part of that discussion.

 

[lambdaupsilon]

SIGH
yeah, real tiring seeing this the other day

 

[SemRockwel]

I think events like this expose that some people don't really view trans and non-binary identities as real. They only acknowledge them out of politeness.

 

[MGPanda]

For what it's worth, I don't think there's any issue whatsoever with the expression "respect people's pronouns". If some fucking asshole uses that to their advantage and to play with someone else's feelings, no matter what they did, it's on them. The whole "they don't deserve an ounce of respect, and that includes pronouns" angle has always been fucked up.

 

[apathetic]

*To not derail this thread if you don't know what happened with her please do not ask. It will derail the thread.

Click to shrink...

I want to add on to this statment; Also try to avoid looking it up for yourself if you are now curious. I guarantee it isn't something you want to know about.

 

[Weiss]

Yep.

There ain't a heroic, moral way to deny base humanity. Even if you're throwing it at a real shitsucker, you're telling everyone else that their humanity is conditional.

 

[GYODX]

100% agree.

 

[16bits]

Yep. I can't stand Caitlyn Jenner but I still refer to her as her

Click to shrink...

the perfect example.

she killed someone

 

[Temascos]

I haven't seen too much of this where I normally venture, but it's still a shitty thing to do. Like sure, if a person does a shitty thing call them out on it by all means, but you don't get to change their identity to suit your needs. The only reason people do that is to justify their TERFy behaviour.

 

[Hollywood Duo]

Yep, trans people are human too which means a sizable chunk of them are going to be horrible people just like everyone else.

 

[Fodder Aplenty]

In complete agreement. Doing this pretty much exposes how you really feel about trans people IMO.

edit: in regards to that tweet, I think many people would take that phrase to mean, "even if you don't agree with their identity for whatever reason, saying such is just needlessly cruel and you should keep it to yourself". Not that I feel that way, mind. Trans women are women, trans men are men, and NB people are valid.

 

[julia crawford]

It often feels like people are trigger itching for permission to disregard any respect for other people.

It speaks to the superficiality of their allyship.

 

[Platy]

Should be noted that this also includes other minorities.

Just because a fat, black, woman or other people was shitty, does not give you the right to talk to them using slurs related to their fatness/blackness/what makes them a minority.

People will look at you and think "ok this person hates fat/black/women" when they see you using that to atack the shitty person

 

[waterpuppy]

I almost feel like it's become more and more common for people to turn to slurs/misgendering etc of people they dislike now than a few years ago. It's so fucking tiring.

 

[Huey]

Yep. I can't stand Caitlyn Jenner but I still refer to her as her

Click to shrink...

Yeah the thread where she was intentioned misgendered at CPAC was pretty indicative that there's a good number of people who don't get this. Jenner's behavior (and betrayal of the community that she was once a hero to) is awful, but so was her treatment at CPAC.

It's the basic principle of no ad hominem attacks - a person's actions are grounds for criticism, not their identity.

 

[Palette Swap]

Well yeah, "trans rights are human rights" is, or should be, more than just a slogan. It means they're unconditional and non negotiable.
I hadn't noticed people intentionally misgendering her to somehow get at her, call her out for being a Republican dipshit, which is in itself irrelevant of her gender, even if Republicans will attack her on her gender.

 

[Tukarrs]

I'm thankful that I haven't seen any sign of this on my social media feeds.

If you don't respect someone, base it on what they do and not their being. It's simple.

 

[Inugami]

I hadn't noticed people intentionally misgendering her to somehow get at her,

Click to shrink...

While I used Jenner as a more well known example for this thread, there has been another individual that was more the direct inspiration for this thread.

It could have a lot more to do with the community that person involved themselves in that lead to the greater amount of that particular type of backlash, but there were people on my feed that I would have normally considered an 'ally' based on previous statements who intentionally misgendered her as part of their spiel about them.

 

[SideMatt]

not to mention ppl very suddenly warming up to the idea of the singular "they" when it's time to properly gender a trans person

 

[Night]

It's sad anyone would even need to be told this.

 

[Kangi]

"Allies" love themselves a good example of a minority who's also a bad person, because they can release all the bigotry they've got boiling beneath the surface and feel good about it because their target "deserves" it. And they'll honestly think they're slick as if nobody's gonna notice they spew vitriol in triplicate toward them compared to what they'll say about even the worst white cishet

 

[Chikor]

I 100% agree and I think part of the problem is by framing this as showing respect to someone.
I have zero respect for Caitlyn Jenner but I will never misgender her, because misgendering affects other people too.
I think over-personalizing such questions is almost always a mistake.

 

[Android Sophia]

I've experienced this personally.

Someone I know decided that, when I was no longer, in their eyes, "good" anymore, that they'd start to misgender me.

It's one of the most dehumanizing things I've ever felt, and I've had a lot of dehumanizing moments as a trans woman.

 

[Deleted member 43]

Should be noted that this also includes other minorities.

Just because a fat, black, woman or other people was shitty, does not give you the right to talk to them using slurs related to their fatness/blackness/what makes them a minority.

People will look at you and think "ok this person hates fat/black/women" when they see you using that to atack the shitty person

Click to shrink...

This is a good point as well. When an overweight or not traditionally attractive individual transgresses, it's disturbing how fast people are to call them fat or ugly.

 

[seroun]

I think this is a bad type of framing. Respecting someone's pronouns shouldn't be about.. well, respect. It should be inherent to the treatment of an individual, whether you respect them or not as a person.

I have no respect for Caitlyn Jenner. She killed someone and is classist as fuck. I still think of her as a woman and call her Caitlyn Jenner.

 

[jon bones]

do you like ben carson?

no - OK - would you call him the n word?

right, so don't misgender terrible trans people

 

[Kinsei]

This is a good point as well. When an overweight or not traditionally attractive individual transgresses, it's disturbing how fast people are to call them fat or ugly.

Click to shrink...

Yep. It's pretty clear that when they devolve into attacking something like that, it's because these are things they've always though, they were just looking for a socially accepted outlet so others won't judge them.

If you misgender a trans person because you think they're an OK target, it just goes to show what you think of all trans people.

 

[mentok15]

Those who do this never really believed the trans person where the gender they identified as, they where just not misgendering before out of politeness or social pressure.

 

[Vonocourt]

Jesus christ, I fell off of the awfulness purposefully when she was court-ordered off the internet. I'm no MD but it seemed like she was in an environment that wasn't equipped to handle her, and she should've been a ward of the state a long time ago. She has a lot of problems, and if any of this is true, it requires judicial review.

But fuck all these people deadnaming and misgendering her, she was nothing about a zoo animal to them, has been for over a decade at this point. This is a clear and decisive effort to mock her, and if you're that callous-hearted catalog her in "humourous" detail the type of person she is, of course, you would be quick to mock trans people as an idea.

 

[Good4Squat]

This is a good point as well. When an overweight or not traditionally attractive individual transgresses, it's disturbing how fast people are to call them fat or ugly.

Click to shrink...

Yep, see that all the time, even here.

 

[Morrigan]

I remember butting heads with an acquaintance of mine about this a few years ago. Dude would insist that it was OK to misgender a specific trans woman because she was very racist and bigoted and he hated her. He was all "yeah I know I'm not in the right with the pronouns, but..."
Like, no "but", just fucking stop. Fortunately this was a few years ago and I'm reasonably sure he wouldn't do that anymore, but that pissed me off at the time.

 

[MrMysterio]

I've experienced this personally.

Someone I know decided that, when I was no longer, in their eyes, "good" anymore, that they'd start to misgender me.

It's one of the most dehumanizing things I've ever felt, and I've had a lot of dehumanizing moments as a trans woman.

Click to shrink...

Fuck. That's really bad, sorry you had to deal with that. It's such a vile thing to do to another person.

 

[GamerJM]

Yep. The person that comes to mind for this recently is Christina Chandler. The actions she took recently are absolutely despicable and unjustifiable even with how fucked up the internet made her life, but she's still a woman.

 

[Wilsongt]

Even if you are a terrible human being, I will honor your pronouns and name.

 

[mbpm]

It's always something when people will superficially respect pronouns, but then imply certain unsavory aspects of the person are tied to (gender the person is not) too.

 

[PMS341]

This was something that came up when I broke up with my ex for being a TERF. She insisted that because certain transwomen had committed crimes, no matter what level, that it was okay to misgender them because they were criminals. Her "proof" and justification was a subreddit with ~1000 users who only posted news articles about crimes committed by trans women, and each article name specifically misgendered them. Just wild bullshit, people are incredibly fucking stupid and many of them do not want to learn to be better, unfortunately.

Yep. The person that comes to mind for this recently is Christina Chandler. The actions she took recently are absolutely despicable and unjustifiable even with how fucked up the internet made her life, but she's still a woman.

Click to shrink...

Yeppp. The past few days have been crazy regarding all of that, but of course it opened the floodgates of assholes ready to misgender as soon as possible.

 

[anexanhume]

I don't necessarily buy the premise of the OP. There's not a way you could message this that would prevent this in my estimation. Transphobic people would look for any reason to misgender someone. The exact same way the N-word slips out when "emotions are high" or it was "in the heat of the moment."

Under normal circumstances, people can appreciate there will be consequences for being openly transphobic to anyone. The second that person does something bad in their eyes, that's immediate validation that their identity can be equivocated as bad in itself, and the negative consequences for abusing them are deemed less likely or worth enduring because the denigration is suddenly righteous.

Also, the idea that this was somehow a failure on the part of trans advocates is pretty tragic. To take blame for how bigoted others are is really falling on the sword.

 

[Strike]

Yep. I can't stand Caitlyn Jenner but I still refer to her as her

Click to shrink...

Yup. She sucks, but don't stoop to that level. Be better.

 

[KtotheRoc]

Yep. I can't stand Caitlyn Jenner but I still refer to her as her

Click to shrink...

Yup. This is the only way.