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Calabi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,491
Not that anyone asked, but independent of where the law stands with regard to this issue, I really don't particularly care about playing music over streams for one simple reason-- watching a stream is not comparable to listening to music. Watching a stream does not replace listening to music. I would never think, "Hm, I wanna listen to some music", and then turn on a video game stream. "Hey, thanks for the bits, 420buttsbutts! Here's a ridiculous sex story." Like, that is not an experience comparable to listening to music. Not even a little bit. If there is a stream that has an audio track comprised exclusively of music, that I take exception to. I have not personally encountered such a stream.

After writing the above, I sat in silent contemplation and concluded that I am sympathetic to the desire to control where your creations are displayed. To have your work associated with something you explicitly do not agree with is nightmare fuel. If my music was playing over a clip of PewDiePie saying the n word, I would be livid.

Evidently, this is a tough one for me.

The trouble is you dont have control over your works. Not when you release it publicly anyway, its not yours anymore. You dont get to say what people think of it or do with it, no matter how many laws they create to stop people from doing so.

Selling someone else's work as your own should be the limit of the laws in my opinion.
 

DrBo42

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,760
This seems like something that'll blow over. I can't imagine the entirety of Twitch playing terrible royalty free music.
 

GraveRobberX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,056
I forget which streamers but some had jukebox setup

Like subscribers or donations allowed you to pick the next song
I was like weird that's allowed, I mean someone is paying you to stream a song...

I thought it was about those steamers

Oh wells tough luck, streamers will have to adjust to this, I mean if your making a living off this, you better know all the rules and regulations beforehand
 
Last edited:

sleepInsom

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,569
The trouble is you dont have control over your works. Not when you release it publicly anyway, its not yours anymore. You dont get to say what people think of it or do with it, no matter how many laws they create to stop people from doing so.

Selling someone else's work as your own should be the limit of the laws in my opinion.

It's not important whether you claim it as your own when you're profiting off of someone else's work. Another person put in the time and work to create something, and when you use that to make money you are stealing from someone else's labor. In the context of this discussion, people may not go to a channel specifically for the music but that music is part of why certain channels are more appealing than others; someone else's work is helping to make you successful.

Also, copyright laws are there specifically to have some control over your work. A film can't show a Pepsi can without Pepsi's permission, for example.
 

RockmanBN

Visited by Knack - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,007
Cornfields
Can't they just listen to the music themselves? Why do they need to broadcast it on their streams?
 

Calabi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,491
It's not important whether you claim it as your own when you're profiting off of someone else's work. Another person put in the time and work to create something, and when you use that to make money you are stealing from someone else's labor. In the context of this discussion, people may not go to a channel specifically for the music but that music is part of why certain channels are more appealing than others; someone else's work is helping to make you successful.

Also, copyright laws are there specifically to have some control over your work. A film can't show a Pepsi can without Pepsi's permission, for example.

Thats what I mean if they are profiting of someone else's work then its fair for it be banned or prosecutable, but saying that some streamers are re purposing someone elses work and profiting of music thats in the background is a bit of a stretch.
 

sleepInsom

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,569
Thats what I mean if they are profiting of someone else's work then its fair for it be banned or prosecutable, but saying that some streamers are re purposing someone elses work and profiting of music thats in the background is a bit of a stretch.

I don't think that's a stretch. If that's true, then there would be no effect on the channel's appeal with or without music being played. But of course we know that background music makes channels more entertaining, which brings in more viewers, which brings in more money. So, yes, they are profiting off of that background music.
 

Deleted member 25108

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,877
This was always going to happen. Twitch only got away with it because while it is a relatively big site, it still was pretty under the radar for copyright holders.

I still believe that publishers are going to eventually start flexing their muscles a bit and start charging streamers (or rather Amazon) to stream their games. The gentleman's agreement that streaming is exposure is becoming increasingly hollow, when a publisher can just stream from their own official channels.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
This was always going to happen. Twitch only got away with it because while it is a relatively big site, it still was pretty under the radar for copyright holders.

I still believe that publishers are going to eventually start flexing their muscles a bit and start charging streamers (or rather Amazon) to stream their games. The gentleman's agreement that streaming is exposure is becoming increasingly hollow, when a publisher can just stream from their own official channels.
You don't realize how streaming works, do you? Streams from official channels are for the most part very small. People aren't going to rush to them. People watch streams because of the people playing it, not just because they want to see game footage.
 

Deleted member 25108

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,877
You don't realize how streaming works, do you? Streams from official channels are for the most part very small. People aren't going to rush to them. People watch streams because of the people playing it, not just because they want to see game footage.

I know exactly how streaming works, thank you. It still operates in a legal grey area that publishers can come down hard on if they want.

They don't because think it's worth the effort. But that is not always going to be the case.

And the whole "oh they will just turn around and stream something else" response doesn't hold weight either. Eventually, every AAA publisher will have it's own dedicated "sponsored" streamers and if you aren't paying to be part of the team, you will be locked out. No different from YouTube and MCNs

I understand that there will be always be indies, but I wasn't talking about that.
 
OP
OP
ReginOfFire

ReginOfFire

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,122
I know exactly how streaming works, thank you. It still operates in a legal grey area that publishers can come down hard on if they want.

They don't because think it's worth the effort. But that is not always going to be the case.

And the whole "oh they will just turn around and stream something else" response doesn't hold weight either. Eventually, every AAA publisher will have it's own dedicated "sponsored" streamers and if you aren't paying to be part of the team, you will be locked out. No different from YouTube and MCNs

I understand that there will be always be indies, but I wasn't talking about that.

EA has what your talking about but they are not locking anyone out so IDK where ur getting that vibe from
 

atomsk

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,489
I still believe that publishers are going to eventually start flexing their muscles a bit and start charging streamers (or rather Amazon) to stream their games. The gentleman's agreement that streaming is exposure is becoming increasingly hollow, when a publisher can just stream from their own official channels.

And in that scenario streamers would will flock to the publishers who don't charge them. (like say, Devolver)

Official channels streaming as a replacement is laughable. They're going to stream for 6-8 hours a day? With engaging personalities? Showing most of the game and not just a carefully controlled vertical slice?
 

Deleted member 25108

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,877
And in that scenario streamers would will flock to the publishers who don't charge them. (like say, Devolver)

Official channels streaming as a replacement is laughable. They're going to stream for 6-8 hours a day? With engaging personalities? Showing most of the game and not just a carefully controlled vertical slice?

Do you not know how YouTube works? You don't have to be a branded channel to be a "Official" streamer. You just have to sign up to a contract with a third party that has negotiated that access for you.

But whatever. Keep fightin the good fight. If you really think streamers are going to be able to stream whatever they like indefinitely and for free, that's your prerogative. I'd argue you are being incredibly naive but it's fine. Time will tell.
 

Dyno

AVALANCHE
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,351
Do you not know how YouTube works? You don't have to be a branded channel to be a "Official" streamer. You just have to sign up to a contract with a third party that has negotiated that access for you.

But whatever. Keep fightin the good fight. If you really think streamers are going to be able to stream whatever they like indefinitely and for free, that's your prerogative. I'd argue you are being incredibly naive but it's fine. Time will tell.

I mean you're under the assumption that all companies will have their own sponsored streamers and that will actually function somehow so you also seem kind of naive. The second that publishers decide all streamers must be a part of their or another's company streaming in general will die.

It's not an audience that cares to watch yet another publisher outlet.
 

atomsk

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,489
Do you not know how YouTube works? You don't have to be a branded channel to be a "Official" streamer. You just have to sign up to a contract with a third party that has negotiated that access for you.

But whatever. Keep fightin the good fight. If you really think streamers are going to be able to stream whatever they like indefinitely and for free, that's your prerogative. I'd argue you are being incredibly naive but it's fine. Time will tell.

with 65k subs, I have a reasonably decent idea how YouTube works.

I feel like you could have clarified "official" better in that post, but now I understand what you're getting at.

MCNs no longer shield people from Content ID/DMCA, by the way (even if you're a managed channel)
 

Deleted member 25108

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,877
I mean you're under the assumption that all companies will have their own sponsored streamers and that will actually function somehow so you also seem kind of naive. The second that publishers decide all streamers must be a part of their or another's company streaming in general will die.

It's not an audience that cares to watch yet another publisher outlet.

15 years ago people were saying pretty much the same thing about a largely curated internet.

Yet for many people, here we are.


But like I said, cool. If anyone believes twitch as a platform isn't going to have to change, the way every other similar platform has changed, it really is more power to them.
 

Dyno

AVALANCHE
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,351
15 years ago people were saying pretty much the same thing about a largely curated internet.

Yet for many people, here we are.


But like I said, cool. If anyone believes twitch as a platform isn't going to have to change, the way every other similar platform has changed, it really is more power to them.

You didn't actually acknowldge my point though? Large amounts of the audience have zero interest in watching their fav streamer become a corporate mouthpiece for whichever publisher.

Only a small amount of streamers would survive becoming an employee of the publisher without the annexing of their fanbase, being the small amount who are family friendly and already play nothing but that game.

What about the large swafts of streamers where them and their audience rely on questionable humor? Do publishers pick them up and let their channel become their own fresh hell of a PR nightmare?

I also never said anything about Twitch as a platform never having to change at all either, you chose those words. I simply pointed out your own idea is in itself naive and ignoring much of what makes up Twicth.
 

Chamberlin

Member
Mar 1, 2018
115
I was in the middle of typing out a few paragraphs about how it's ridiculous to think that (most) streamers are hurting music sales, taking advantage of artists by playing music, or that record labels need to do shit like this, but I think I arrived at a different, more practical idea, so I'll focus on that instead.

The reason we can mostly all agree that one shouldn't be able to use someone else's music, like in some blockbuster movie, for free is that they are making money from the artist's work, right? But how are they making money from that? It isn't because some people want to see Action Movie A and some people want to hear Pop Song B so they both pay for a ticket and sit down in the theater, the second group only there to wait patiently until their song comes on and then leave afterward. They make money because the use of the artist's music raises the value of the film, but good music isn't going to make a horrible movie good. Music raises value by a multiplicative, rather than additional, amount. If the use of a song raises the value of some blockbuster by 5%, as in earns them 5% more money eventually than they otherwise would have, then that's a huge load of money which would usually easily cover the expense of a licensing fee for the music. On the other hand, if the same song raises the value of someone's stream at the moment by 5%, that's like a dime or something (for the vast majority of even paid streamers), and yet to my understanding licensing fees usually have some huge upfront cost attached to them, they tend to take a while to go through, and there's basically no precedent for licensing music for game streaming so it may not even be available to streamers in many/most cases.

If streamers actually had a reasonable option to pay the copyright holders a sum based on the actual expected value worth for their stream earnings, I think most streamers would be fine with that. In a good system, a streamer would play whatever music they like and then when streaming payday rolled in there would be a certain small, reasonable portion of ad and subscription earnings for money earned during or shortly after the time when a given song was played and everyone could walk away paid and satisfied. Even this much I think would be very generous to the licensers because in almost any case if someone hears a song they like, usually amid gunfire and explosions and dick joke commentary, they'll want to hear it again, resulting in the free marketing that game publishers are coming to accept that game streams are, but even if we want to be as conservative as possible with copyrights, the record labels should be working on getting a system to streamers that actually allow them to pay for the music usage in a reasonable way instead of issuing takedowns that do nothing but hurt absolutely everyone involved, from the streamers to their viewers to the music artists to themselves.

Anything else is just the latest in a long line of tantrums of another old scared and confused media dinosaur as it's dragged kicking and screaming into what should have been reasonable policy a decade ago.
 

Syriel

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
11,088
The game itself is copyrighted. Your PERFORMANCE of playing the game is different than the game, and unlike music, you bought the game for the purpose of playing/performing. I think, because video games are inherently interactive and the result of using them is a performance, it's a mistake to try and force video games into the existing boxes for things that aren't video games like you're trying to do -- unlike music and movies, games are played and that play creates a performance.

If you perform music, or perform a play, you still need a license. You can consider a game the same as a script, or sheet music, which provides the basic set of rules to get from A to B, but even if the performer ad-libs their lines, or plays the music slightly differently, doesn't mean it isn't a violation of copyright.

hmm... what about people who play modded rhythm games that contain all sorts of copyrighted music?

Need a license. Always have.

I'm surprised Twitch can't buy those blanket licenses that bars pay so they can play music without being sued.

Twitch is a worldwide broadcaster. A bar is a local establishment. Even an eSports area would be local and could use such a license.

Getting GLOBAL rights to perform something that you have not created is not easy.

It always amazes me when people think that streaming is nothing more than signing up to Twitch or YT and starting to broadcast.

None of these issues are new. It's just that there is a whole swath of people with "get rich quick" dreams in their eyes who don't want to bother with the rights clearance work.

Reading this twitter always riles up the blood.

But seeing some replies I guess it's still thought that exposure is better

You're seeing it in this very thread. "Why are content creators unhappy with this? Streamers are paying them IN EXPOSURE!!!" Nevermind the fact that if you told most streamers that they won't actually get donations, instead they should just be happy with EXPOSURE, they would be up-in-arms about how unfair it all is.

EXPOSURE is great unless you're the one who's work is being used w/o payment.

I was in the middle of typing out a few paragraphs about how it's ridiculous to think that (most) streamers are hurting music sales, taking advantage of artists by playing music, or that record labels need to do shit like this, but I think I arrived at a different, more practical idea, so I'll focus on that instead.

There are two issues. One is cost. One is control.

Music has a value and the creator can set that. The example that kicked off this thread was a new song. It was likely being used by the streamers because it was new. It has value. If a streamer doesn't want to pay the license fee, why should they get to use it?

Control is how the product is used. For some instances, control is limited. But for others, it rests in the hands of the creator. Again, look at the Thro: Ragnarok Immigrant Song example. It wasn't just "how much does it cost?" It was also a matter of specifying EXCATLY how it would be used.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,231
Twitch is a worldwide broadcaster. A bar is a local establishment. Even an eSports area would be local and could use such a license.

Getting GLOBAL rights to perform something that you have not created is not easy.
Doesn't Amazon have Amazon music or some other streaming thing? I mean this is a billion dollar company, so you' think they'd be able to do something - even if it means taking a larger cut of the Twitch streamer's income.
 

sleepInsom

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,569
If you perform music, or perform a play, you still need a license. You can consider a game the same as a script, or sheet music, which provides the basic set of rules to get from A to B, but even if the performer ad-libs their lines, or plays the music slightly differently, doesn't mean it isn't a violation of copyright.



Need a license. Always have.



Twitch is a worldwide broadcaster. A bar is a local establishment. Even an eSports area would be local and could use such a license.

Getting GLOBAL rights to perform something that you have not created is not easy.

It always amazes me when people think that streaming is nothing more than signing up to Twitch or YT and starting to broadcast.

None of these issues are new. It's just that there is a whole swath of people with "get rich quick" dreams in their eyes who don't want to bother with the rights clearance work.



You're seeing it in this very thread. "Why are content creators unhappy with this? Streamers are paying them IN EXPOSURE!!!" Nevermind the fact that if you told most streamers that they won't actually get donations, instead they should just be happy with EXPOSURE, they would be up-in-arms about how unfair it all is.

EXPOSURE is great unless you're the one who's work is being used w/o payment.



There are two issues. One is cost. One is control.

Music has a value and the creator can set that. The example that kicked off this thread was a new song. It was likely being used by the streamers because it was new. It has value. If a streamer doesn't want to pay the license fee, why should they get to use it?

Control is how the product is used. For some instances, control is limited. But for others, it rests in the hands of the creator. Again, look at the Thro: Ragnarok Immigrant Song example. It wasn't just "how much does it cost?" It was also a matter of specifying EXCATLY how it would be used.

This is true. I worked at a public school at one point, and every month they would have a movie night in the auditorium. Even they had to pay for a license for that.
 

Syriel

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
11,088
Doesn't Amazon have Amazon music or some other streaming thing? I mean this is a billion dollar company, so you' think they'd be able to do something - even if it means taking a larger cut of the Twitch streamer's income.

Again, it's nowhere near that simple. Hell, the EU can't even manage a single digital market.

The US is spoiled by covering so much area in a single market. Global rights are challenging. Everyone wants to get paid. It's one reason why Netflix is pushing so hard on Originals. You can clear rights globally. It just takes work, and it's a lot easier to do with smaller artists.

It's not like Twitch doesn't have options for music. You can use any of this music for free on Twitch. It's not big name, and it's not NEW NEW NEW, but it does have the rights cleared.
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
Yes, let's now focus on my use of simple terms instead of technical ones as if that means I don't know what I'm talking about or that it's inaccurate. I wonder what a lawyer whose focus is IP and Copyright Law would say about Safe Harbor:



Source: https://medium.com/pretzelrocks/lets-take-a-minute-to-talk-about-the-dmca-cd14596a329d


Now let's see how Twitch chooses to enforce DMCA in order to protect themselves.







Notice those tweets are from the Partnerships Account Manager at Twitch and are from nearly two years ago.

And Twitch's officially posted DMCA Guidelines:



Source: https://www.twitch.tv/p/legal/dmca-guidelines/

So Twitch just happens to operate on nearly the same exact standards for DMCA that Youtube does. Must be purely coincidence and have absolutely no legal justification at all despite the fact that banning users actively works against Twitch's direct ability to make money. The only significant difference between Twitch and Youtube's decision is that Twitch opts for a 24 hr Temp Ban on the first two strikes.

Your post about the DMCA Safe Harbor is exactly my point. It says removing the content is what's needed. That's all that is needed. Banning the user from posting new videos or streaming doesn't do anything at all for removing illegal content. Banning without a single warning is a choice that Twitch made on their own that is unrelated to any DMCA requirement.
 

Chamberlin

Member
Mar 1, 2018
115
There are two issues. One is cost. One is control.

Music has a value and the creator can set that. The example that kicked off this thread was a new song. It was likely being used by the streamers because it was new. It has value. If a streamer doesn't want to pay the license fee, why should they get to use it?

Control is how the product is used. For some instances, control is limited. But for others, it rests in the hands of the creator. Again, look at the Thro: Ragnarok Immigrant Song example. It wasn't just "how much does it cost?" It was also a matter of specifying EXCATLY how it would be used.

Sure. I didn't want to get into every individual aspect but I totally agree that the creators should be able to make that call. That doesn't conflict with the idea in general though, it just introduces a couple details. Artists or whoever's job it is could be in charge of what the rates are and if they're okay with just anyone playing their music (for sort of barely in a roundabout stretch of a way money). I think that the vast majority could see however that a low, feasible rate would be by far a much better way to make money than to screw with modest streamers for having the gall to enjoy music together with their familiar audience in a way that amounts to free advertisement.
 

Jest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,565
Your post about the DMCA Safe Harbor is exactly my point. It says removing the content is what's needed. That's all that is needed. Banning the user from posting new videos or streaming doesn't do anything at all for removing illegal content. Banning without a single warning is a choice that Twitch made on their own that is unrelated to any DMCA requirement.

You state that there's no warning. There's two warnings. One is in the Official Twitch Policy that states Twitch can and will go as far as a permanent ban for a DMCA violation. It should be pretty obvious that anyone that streams for any serious purpose should read and be aware of the rules, regulations, and policies in regards to streaming. Two is in the 24hr Ban after violation, which itself serves as a warning.

In regards to the decision to ban upon the first violation, you honestly can't see the forest for the trees. The reason why companies like Twitch and Youtube, that have massive corporations who have highly paid well reputed legal teams, would have the exact same policies in regards to how they respond to DMCA violations is because those teams can foresee the legal implications of *not* having those rules and want to avoid the problem before having to face it. It's not just the letter of the law but about what a good lawyer or legal team will argue in interpretation of the law. The DMCA does not word for word account for live streaming. So removal of content would be up to interpretation. The problem isn't just the VODs but the act of streaming the music. So what would be The Courts most likely interpretation of "removing the content" in a case where users are repeatedly live broadcasting content they have no permission to broadcast? Twitch and Youtube are just meeting that result without risking going to court and completely losing their Safe Harbor status.