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Oct 25, 2017
9,118
Yes, but people of color face oppression.
If white people want to experience diversity all they have to do is join one of the various [nationality/race] culture clubs provided many colleges and universities.
Don't understand the reason why white people need a safe space with the current political climate.
If white people trying to better themselves as allies is getting the side eye how do you think those cultural clubs will respond to a white person engaging in "cultural tourism" or whatever other incharitable label they will be given?

All it takes is one person to not feel comfortable to have a white person in the Chinese club or whatever to make it an issue even if the white person had genuinely good motivations.

There isn't a simple solution to educating white people about diversity which is why multiple approaches should be explored.
 

SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,625
Portland, OR
It's a commonly used phrase that means things don't happen over night, which is another commonly used phrase that means hard tasks take time and effort. The bigger the task the more time and effort required.

Stop being pedantic.
It's also used to be dismissive of oppressed people's concerns when things aren't changing quickly enough.

Likening ending an abhorrent practice like slavery to the slow process of building an empire is a really really shitty thing to do and you should stop.
 

Merv

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,468
It's also used to be dismissive of oppressed people's concerns when things aren't changing quickly enough.

Likening ending an abhorrent practice like slavery to the slow process of building an empire is a really really shitty thing to do and you should stop.

You're a lunatic. You're really over blowing a very common phrase and this has nothing to do with the intent of my original post.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
This is a good article on the topic at hand: https://www.newyorker.com/books/pag...vents-white-americans-from-confronting-racism

DiAngelo sometimes adopts a soothing, conciliatory tone toward white readers, as if she were appeasing a child on the verge of a tantrum. "If your definition of a racist is someone who holds conscious dislike of people because of race, then I agree that it is offensive for me to suggest that you are racist when I don't know you," she writes. "I also agree that if this is your definition of racism, and you are against racism, then you are not racist. Now breathe. I am not using this definition of racism, and I am not saying that you are immoral. If you can remain open as I lay out my argument, it should soon begin to make sense." One has the grim hunch that such an approach has been honed over years of placating red-faced white people, workshop participants leaping at any excuse to discount their instructor. DiAngelo, for all the outrageousness she documents, never comes across as anything other than preternaturally calm, patient, and lucid, issuing prescriptions for a better world as if from beneath a blanket of Ativan. Her almost motorized equipoise clarifies the book's stakes: she cannot afford to lose us, who are so easily lost.

Because white fragility is real, it can be helpful to have race dialogue come from a white voice rather than a minority voice.
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
Hmm, seems like the intent is good, but like many people have pointed. I see it being very difficult to make any meaningful progress of better understanding POC and countering racism without there being POC somehow sponsoring or being directly involved in the group.

Edit: but as some have also pointed out, white fragility is very real and I think hearing some of these concepts from another white person who is more with it may be effective in at least introducing them to ideas they are uncomfortable with.
 

Doorman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,927
Michigan
I'll count it as a positive if, in the first meeting, they bring up their terribly-worded advertisement and actually explain to the people there what makes it terribly-worded and why. The formation of the club itself already provides a teaching point to broach the topics of white fragility and showing actual contrition and correcting yourself in the event of mistakenly saying something dumb.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
This is white people educating other white people about racism so that people of color don't have to do the emotional labor themselves. It sounds positive to me.
 

Mozendo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,236
Pacific North West
If white people trying to better themselves as allies is getting the side eye
Because it's terrible way to tackle on diversity.

All it takes is one person to not feel comfortable to have a white person in the Chinese club or whatever to make it an issue even if the white person had genuinely good motivations.
Have you ever been to a cultural appreciation club in college? Anyone can join, it's not a race/ethnicity specific, these are groups where people inform about their culture.

There isn't a simple solution to educating white people about diversity which is why multiple approaches should be explored.
Yes I agree, these people are in a university and there's probably multiple classes that deal with diversity like some sociology or political science classes.
 

Deepwater

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,349
Because it's terrible way to tackle on diversity.


Have you ever been to a cultural appreciation club in college? Anyone can join, it's not a race/ethnicity specific, these are groups where people inform about their culture.


Yes I agree, these people are in a university and there's probably multiple classes that deal with diversity like some sociology or political science classes.

As somebody who was the president of my undergrads black student union, I never not once structured my programming for white people or allyship. It was FUBU. White people could show up and participate but I would never do a program structured around their education. It's not our damn responsibility.
 

Cymbal Head

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,376
I can see this being a good idea if handled right. College-aged kids are still developing, so a very gentle introduction to these issues that doesn't activate their white fragility could be a necessary first step.

In a better world we'd all come into adulthood fully able to graciously accept the truth about our own roles in privilege and oppression, but we're not there yet.
 

Deleted member 4461

User Requested Account Deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,010
The premise of the group is based on social justice and allyship..



What you're advocating for is that a person of color be present in all race discussions to labor and educate white people. That is quite frankly stupid. Why force frustrating conversations on PoC...

Hey, if they want to do it, they can!

I mentioned earlier, but I enjoy answering questions that people may be too afraid to vocalize to others. It's helpful and a direct line. For people who don't wanna do it, they don't have to.
 

Ash735

Banned
Sep 4, 2018
907
This seems like an issue of multiple paths and I can see the pov of each, it's just an issue that's trying to please one subset, mainly the "it's not up to poc's to educate white people, they have to do it themselves" which this club feels like a response to. I'd love to say its worded wrong but honestly a part of me thinks it was worded that way on purpose to lure in those types, those white people who think "well why don't we have safe spaces?", etc, as they'd be the ones who would benefit most from this, the kind of white people brought up by the Internet who go around thinking "why does everyone else get special treatment BUT white people?", basically the type who can be turned into decent people once educated but are scared to talk about these issues in front of poc's because they don't want to be called racist.
 

Yasuke

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,817
After reading the description of what this is supposed to be, and I might be a little naive here, I feel like the people involved may have their heart in the right place. But not having minorities included in the discussion defeats the entire purpose of this.

Yeah, the description made me think "oh...I see what you're trying to do, but this was not the way to go about it".
 

Zoe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,298
Hey, if they want to do it, they can!

I mentioned earlier, but I enjoy answering questions that people may be too afraid to vocalize to others. It's helpful and a direct line. For people who don't wanna do it, they don't have to.
And when no one's willing? They should just stay in this state of not talking with anyone?
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Basically I'm reminded of this statement by Malcolm X:

The white people in meeting audiences would throng around me, asking me, after I had addressed them somewhere, "What can a sincere white person do?"

When I say that here now, it makes me think about that little co-ed I told you about, the one who flew from her New England college down to New York and came up to me in the Nation of Islam's restaurant in Harlem, and I told her that there was "nothing" she could do. I regret that I told her that. I wish that now I knew her name, or where I could telephone her, or write to her, and tell her what I tell white people now when they present themselves as being sincere, and ask me, one way or another, the same thing that she asked.

The first thing I tell them is that at least where my own particular Black Nationalist organization, the Organization of Afro-American Unity, is concerned, they can't join us. I have these very deep feelings that white people who want to join black organizations are really just taking the escapist way to salve their consciences. By visibly hovering near us, they are "proving" that they are "with us." But the hard truth is this isn't helping to solve America's racist problem. The Negroes aren't the racists.

Where the really sincere white people have got to do their "proving" of themselves is not among the black victims, but out on the battle lines of where America's racism really is -- and that's in their own home communities; America's racism is among their own fellow whites. That's where the sincere whites who really mean to accomplish something have got to work.

As long as this sort of program is carried out in good faith, it doesn't matter if people make mistakes and say a bunch of dumb shit. For a lot of them it's going to be a learning process. That's better than doing nothing at all.
 

Deleted member 2913

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,126
Can I get a safe space for the amount of people that didn't read the thread and just the title, left a comment, and dipped? Yikes.

I see the intentions are good, but god damn that wording lol
 

TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,168
So I'm white (half white, but I look all white and I think it's fair to just say I identify as 'white'), and I like to think my posting here and at the old place has been pretty eye opening over the last...decade or so, we have a lot of posters here of all backgrounds that put a lot of thought into everything that they write and are willing to make it pretty clear how they feel about issues, so while I never would have considered myself racist in any way in the past (I never grew up in an area or household where that was even a thing, so I never understood it to begin with), I now understand through you guys how many things I have said or done are racist, or at least racially insensitive.

Speaking as the type of person that a 15 years ago probably could've used the kind of thing being offered here, even if I didn't know it then: This is purely a good idea. There is a big difference between racist fucks that don't give a shit that they're racist, and poeple who aren't really racist, but don't understand that they still act in subtle racist ways at times. The latter is who this group is aimed at, and the flyer in the intro is a pretty good example of the kind of shit these people will do. Even someone that isn't racist doesn't want to be talked AT and told that they're racist or whatever else, yes it's white fragility, but it's in the same way that people don't generally like to be told they're wrong about anything. I don't like to, you don't like to, nobody likes to, it sucks. Something like this where someone can feel like they're 'part' of the discussion is almost surely a good way to get them to arrive at conclusions themselves (with the aid of the counselors and guests or whatever else) without feeling preached to, basically.

I dunno, to me it makes sense, and if the end result is even 'allies' being less racist then that's a pretty good lesson. Heck, I hope this flyer thing has taught some of them lessons already, like "hey, maybe our idea isn't bad but our execution was fucke,d let's think about WHY' it's easy to be defensive, hopefully they aren't. Yes, having minorities there would certainly help with the ability to speak from experience, but you don't always need that. I don't need to be black at this point to explain to someone why they shouldn't say the n word even when they're singing along to a song for example, I'm just not going to frame it as if it's something I speak on from personal experience.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong about all of this and I'll learn something new here in this thread, who knows.
 

motherless

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
2,282
What are the meeting organizers experience with racism cuz that flyer didnt inspire

I don't see his CV, just this.

wpc818849a_05_06.jpg


Noah M. Collins -- University of Maryland Counseling Center

Phone: 301-314-7661 - Email: [email protected]

Professional and Research Interests: Therapist training, especially in the areas of racial and cultural awareness. At the UMD Counseling Center, Dr. Collins' work focuses on training, couples therapy, and group therapy.
 
Oct 27, 2017
399
The phrasing on the poster is bad. When I read about white people gathering to talk about race, I immediately picture pointy white hoods.

However the idea behind it is great if it's genuine. I think it's a very positive step to not put the burden of explaining privilege and power imbalance completely on minorities. White people are really sensitive to having their privilege identified as such by the oppressed party. It's like some of them take it as a personal attack. If hearing it from other white people is what it takes for some people to actually absorb some information and reflect, instead of the wounded defensive reaction that comes out otherwise, I'm all for it.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
And he greenlit that flyer?

Lol
I think it's pretty obvious that he listened to people of color who are of the opinion that minority groups should not have to shoulder the burden of educating white people about racism, and so this group was born from his desire, as a white person, to educate other white people. I mean if you are of the opinion that white people need to educate other white people about race, then who better to do it other than an actual educator with a background in racial studies?

I get that not everyone agrees with the statement "white people need to educate other white people", but it is very clearly an approach that many minority advocates have suggested. There are multiple people of color in this thread saying as much, and I've seen this sentiment shared on this forum many, many times. Civil rights leaders like Malcom X suggested the practice as well. So now someone is trying to put that idea into formal practice in an educational setting...what is wrong with that?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,669
I think it's pretty obvious that he listened to people of color who are of the opinion that minority groups should not have to shoulder the burden of educating white people about racism, and so this group was born from his desire, as a white person, to educate other white people. I mean if you are of the opinion that white people need to educate other white people about race, then who better to do it other than an actual educator with a background in racial studies?

I get that not everyone agrees with the statement "white people need to educate other white people", but it is very clearly an approach that many minority advocates have suggested. There are multiple people of color in this thread saying as much, and I've seen this sentiment shared on this forum many, many times. Civil rights leaders like Malcom X suggested the practice as well. So now someone is trying to put that idea into formal practice in an educational setting...what is wrong with that?
Nothing. but that flyer isnt a great first impression and neither is making it whites only

Not sure how diverse the views will be without minorities
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Nothing. but that flyer isnt a great first impression and neither is making it whites only

Not sure how diverse the views will be without minorities
It's whites only so that minorities don't have to come in and have the burden of educating white people placed on them, so they don't have to deal with the irritation of white fragility.

There is a common scene in colleges, where in a class that's dealing with race-related topics, taught by a well-intentioned white professor, there are many white students but only one or two students of color. The professor, thinking they have stumbled upon a great opportunity to teach the white students something about race using a peer they can relate to, points out the student of color and asks them to elaborate on their own experiences with racism. Except in considering this great opportunity to educate the white students, they have failed to consider how the student of color feels being singled out by the class, or if their experiences of racism are so traumatic that they dont feel comfortable talking about them in a room of (predominately white) strangers. In that instance, a huge burden has been placed on their shoulders, a burden that the professor and the white students should be bearing themselves. The feelings of the students of color are being disregarded, in favor of a 'teachable moment' for the white students. The professor, unintentionally, has placed higher value on teaching the white students then they have on the feelings of the individual students of color. I've seen this happen in classes before, and it is unfair. This group is seeking to avoid that type of scenario.
 

Tya

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,665
Well-meaning white people getting together to have a serious conversation about race relations is one of the best things that could happen to this country. Hardcore racist types are too far gone, but what of all the confused young people who grew up in majority white areas with Fox News watching, brainwashed parents that picked up a bunch of bullshit who could, perhaps, get weeded out? Having a conversation about racism with college-aged white people is a perfect time in their intellectual development to explore any prejudices they may have.

I get that many here are extremely cynical, but allies do exist. In fact, they exist in the millions. This type of thinking is fucking stupid.

Yep can't trust white people to not be racist because the majority of them voted for Trump.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
3,669
It's whites only so that minorities don't have to come in and have the burden of educating white people placed on them, so they don't have to deal with the irritation of white fragility.

There is a common scene in colleges, where in a class that's dealing with race-related topics, taught by a well-intentioned white professor, there are many white students but only one or two students of color. The professor, thinking they have stumbled upon a great opportunity to teach the white students something about race using a peer they can relate to, points out the student of color and asks them to elaborate on their own experiences with racism. Except in considering this great opportunity to educate the white students, they have failed to consider how the student of color feels being singled out by the class, or if their experiences of racism are so traumatic that they dont feel comfortable talking about them in a room of (predominately white) strangers. In that instance, a huge burden has been placed on their shoulders, a burden that the professor and the white students should be bearing themselves. The feelings of the students of color are being disregarded, in favor of a 'teachable moment' for the white students. The professor, unintentionally, has placed higher value on teaching the white students then they have on the feelings of the individual students of color. I've seen this happen in classes before, and it is unfair. This group is seeking to avoid that type of scenario.
I imagine if you invite POC to talk, they'll be more willing to engage versus some random person on the street or a student bein blindsided in class
 

Ogodei

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,256
Coruscant
There's a fair bit of dysfunction in this organization. They tried to buy software from our organization, which is to say that they *did* buy our software service but mismanaged it so thoroughly and so rapidly that we let them cancel early, which we almost never do.

Unless there's another White Awake out there that I'm not thinking of. This would make sense since other UMD programs buy our stuff.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
I imagine if you invite POC to talk, they'll be more willing to engage versus some random person on the street or a student bein blindsided in class
Nothing about this group prevents that from happening. They could invite guest speakers, read literature dealing with race by Black, Hispanic, Asian, etc. authors, lots of possibilities. The point is that the thrust of the group is a space for white people to educate other white people about race. Given that it is a commonly suggested strategy for dealing with racism, it seems fine to try and implement the idea on a college campus.
The fact that folks need a group to be educated about how to be respectful to people with different skin color to be bat shit.
Yes it is extremely sad and frustrating that it needs to be done, but it's also incredibly obvious that it is necessary given what is going on in our society.
 

ahoyhoy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,320
Well-meaning white people getting together to have a serious conversation about race relations is one of the best things that could happen to this country. Hardcore racist types are too far gone, but what of all the confused young people who grew up in majority white areas with Fox News watching, brainwashed parents that picked up a bunch of bullshit who could, perhaps, get weeded out? Having a conversation about racism with college-aged white people is a perfect time in their intellectual development to explore any prejudices they may have.

I get that many here are extremely cynical, but allies do exist. In fact, they exist in the millions. This type of thinking is fucking stupid.

Oh this was me being very sarcastic.
 

Deleted member 15326

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,219
Non-white America has been extremely patient with white America over the centuries of murder, theft and general fuckery so if your first instinct is to wag your finger in disapproval at minorities having a chuckle over the flyer please feel free to eat every dick in the 64-color box
 

Swiggins

was promised a tag
Member
Apr 10, 2018
11,475
"Welcome! Here you get to say the N-Word and share as many black people as monkeys image macros as you like. We also fully encourage squinting your eyes and laughing with your friends as you speak faux Chinese."
I'm pretty sure if the intention is to teach white people how to be better allies to minorities that wouldn't go over very well.

This sounds like a wording problem more than anything, Instead of calling it a safe space they should have called it a learning opportunity.
 
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Tya

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,665
Non-white America has been extremely patient with white America over the centuries of murder, theft and general fuckery so if your first instinct is to wag your finger in disapproval at minorities having a chuckle over the flyer please feel free to eat every dick in the 64-color box

You sound completely unhinged.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,669
Nothing about this group prevents that from happening. They could invite guest speakers, read literature dealing with race by Black, Hispanic, Asian, etc. authors, lots of possibilities. The point is that the thrust of the group is a space for white people to educate other white people about race. Given that it is a commonly suggested strategy for dealing with racism, it seems fine to try and implement the idea on a college campus.
I doubt there gonna have alot of guest speakers of color if they sturggle when POC are in the room
 

Benita

Banned
Aug 27, 2018
862
I can see the merit in this idea and I'm glad they got out in front of the wording on the flyer because its garbage. Calling it a "safe space" in particular is horribly ignorant.

If - IF - the people who attend have the right intentions to overcome their own ignorance and better themselves then I can see why it would be beneficial to do so without the apprehension of offending a minority in the room when speaking on past behaviour or attitudes.

As a white person i am so so sorry for these fucking idiots, those snowflakes yo. I hate my race so much

I would be worried about this group trying to get people of colour killed or something by calling campus security for no reason

This take is garbage-tier.
 

Swiggins

was promised a tag
Member
Apr 10, 2018
11,475
Broad generalizations of the population that elected trump not doing enough to combat racism?

Gee.
He didn't carry my house, my county or my state...all of which have a majority white population. Look, there are racist white people. You'd have to be fucking blind to think otherwise, but many of us are genuinely trying to do better.