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Norris1020

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,461
My wife got the bill for her ER visit a couple weeks ago, she was having some abdominal pain and on the line item on her bill was a $230 charge for pregnancy test, which is literally the same exact piss on stick you would buy at Dollar Tree.

By the way total charge for a 2.5 hour visit was over $10,200 thanks to a scan that was more than half that cost.
 

MrChom

Member
Oct 26, 2017
681
The thing is in these universial health care countries? Does everyone get good doctors or bad doctors? You can't compare a doctor in New York City manhattan to one in the Bronx.

I'll be honest I've never seen a bad quality GP in the UK. GP ratings and funding schemes tend to keep things at a decent level of quality.
 

Blackpuppy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,205
I really doubt it would ever work like this in America. I mean is there a paid insurance in these "free" countries

Every country is different. In France there is a private insurance that you need in addition to the public system. This covers all or percentages of the cost of certain operations.

Doctor visits are free, pregnancies are free, but if you have to get a crown or some varicose veins removed, then the public system will only cover a small percentage of the price and the insurance will cover another percentage and you pay the rest (if there's anything left to pay that is).

Oh, my insurance for myself, my wife and our child is 100€ a month.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,353
How are these universal healthcares funded? Is this sustainable?
I pay 7.5% of my monthly wage for pretty much all free healthcare here in germany. Now you pay for some meds because they aren't covered but that's usually 10-15€ max.
I just got a bill for $163 for a normal teeth cleaning. The bill was from my Dental Insurance company. They said my dental insurance didn't cover dental services. US Healthcare even fucks over people with insurance.
Teeth cleaning also isn't covered in germany and cost me 60€ the last time i did it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,215
More. Government is legally prohibited from basic capitalism - negotiations on price are forbidden by law written by providers and pharmaceutical. It would be funny if it didn't actually kill thousands of people every year.

I would hope that if we found the will to switch to UHC, that we would also change those laws. Plus add laws that force companies to either put the gains from not subsidising premiums into the employees hands as cash, or into a tax...Not keep it as extra profit.
 

Ensorcell

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,461
Americans don't care because they are not the ones usually paying for it. Insurance companies pay much more in line with the bill in the OP. It's the people on the fringe that get fucked over. If all Americans got billed the way they are you would see it changed in a split second.
 

Dennis8K

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,161
America has an absolutely ginormous military though. Money can only be spent once and the made their choice.
 

Bob Beat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,916
To further add:
This is a breakdown of healthcare costs from the CDC.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/health-expenditures.htm
2015
  • Percent of national health expenditures for hospital care: 32.3% (2015)
  • Percent of national health expenditures for nursing care facilities and continuing care retirement communities: 4.9% (2015)
  • Percent of national health expenditures for physician and clinical services: 19.8% (2015)
  • Percent of national health expenditures for prescription drugs: 10.1% (2015)
That's 67.1%. There is a PDF link showing the full breakdown. Hospital care and "Retail outlet sales of medical products" (prescriptions and durable and nondurable medical products) are the two biggest, from my quick review. Those are costs that can easily be contained by a single payer. Where they gonna sell to besides the US? We already know you can buy prescriptions in other countries for far cheaper. Single payer forces pharmaceutical companies and product suppliers to make less money. And they can spare to make less money.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28212223

Making more profit, compared to a lot of other industries:
_78427037_pharmaceutical_profits_624.gif


Then moving to hospital costs. You are paying a lot more for all the other things that go into seeing your doctor.

http://medicaleconomics.modernmedic...tive-costs-are-killing-us-healthcare?page=0,1

Not long after presenting my research on administrative costs, I had a curious experience. Listening to a medical school lecture on healthcare payment reform, I heard a number of second-year medical students arguing vigorously that the only way to reduce healthcare expenditures was to pay doctors less. I was amazed. As a percentage of total national healthcare costs, U.S. physician wages are small – approximately 9% – a number among the lowest in the developed world.

9% of all healthcare costs are to physicians. That whole article talks about how administration and the costs associated with it causes more costs, which is pushed onto the consumer, whether you have health insurance or not.

It's to the point that we need single payer to survive as a country. We cannot dedicate 1 in every 4 dollars made in the united states to healthcare. Everything else will suffer. Not going to single payer will cause everything else to collapse.
 

scrubadam

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
94
Kinda the same thing in Canada. Don't understand why American's are so opposed to things like Universal health care/education. Well I guess I do because a lot of American's are just outright selfish.

But universal health care does have its drawbacks, especially in a place like Quebec. Understaffed/funded hospitals. Long wait times etc... So the cheap prices do have their drawbacks. But overall I would take those drawbacks over having to take out a bank loan to pay my medical bills.
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,894
My wife's American and even living in Canada for 12 years now she still instinctively refuses to see a doctor unless she's dying even though it's free.

She nearly died a few days ago, luckily I was able to get a nurse on the phone to assess and explain how urgent it was we get to the ER.

I'm still shaken up by the whole thing.
 

yepyepyep

Member
Oct 25, 2017
705
Yep, I love Australian health care. My dad had problems with an irregular heart beat that would incapacitate him. He went to the GP first who said he should go to the ER immediately. He had priority when he arrived because it was cardiac problems, they did a procedure that reset his heart beat, but they said he had to stay so they could do all sorts of tests to find out what the problem was. I think he was at the hospital for a night or two. After all the scans and tests they found out it had low risk of cardiac arrest and could be fixed with an ablation procedure. He did have to join the wait list for about 5 or 6 months, can't remember how long. During that time, he still had problems with the irregular heart beat and had to go to the ER I think 3 times, because the only people who can administer the heart reset procedure have to be specialists. But he had his ablation procedure done in the end and he hasn't had any heart problems in the years since.

He had to pay nothing; no cost for the times in ER, no costs for the overnight stay in hospital, no cost for the tests carried out to find out what was wrong and no cost for the ablation procedure. If we were in the US he would probably be bankrupt by now.
 

Stellar

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
758
Here in the land of the free we have people dying from toothaches because they can't afford to go to the dentist. Freedom ain't free!
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 3345

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,967
America first and foremost has a cost problem in health care. How to pay for it is a secondary problem.

That's entirely wrong. The ACA was a stimulus program that re-incentivized the US economy made a shitload of people money, made a shit load of people healthy.

The problem is that the profit margin on healthcare provision dropped. Even though the volume increased.

Republicans and corrupt democrats in congress are just selfish short term thinkings, that care about their lobbyists giving them money.
 

PanickyFool

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,947
Uh, do you even live in America? You could cut costs in half, and it'll still be a problem. Most Americans don't even have $1000 in the bank. Meanwhile the 1% own 40% of the nation's wealth. I think the solution is pretty fucking obvious.
Woah dude, death that to the proletariat and all that jazz!

But just look an comparison to any country on how much we spend on health care. The primary problem with health Care in this country is how much we as a society spend on health Care, not how it is funded. There is no legitimate reason why we can't make health Care 30% cheaper fairly immediately, but there is no political will for cost cutting.

% of GDP expenditures is a pretty easy, shit we spend too much for too little in return, metric to consider.
 

flyinj

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,967
The thing is in these universial health care countries? Does everyone get good doctors or bad doctors? You can't compare a doctor in New York City manhattan to one in the Bronx.

I live in Brooklyn, work in Manhattan and my physical therapy doctor is in the Bronx. She is fantastic.

Get our of here with your transparent bullshit bootstrap talking points.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,472
I'm an American. I had my tonsils out when I was 23 in Japan. 7 days in the hospital. It cost me a total of $70.

I'm back in America and my wife works for a medical university. We have "very good" insurance. It still sucks compared to the rest of the world. I'm one accident where an ambulance takes me to the wrong hospital away from bankruptcy. I hate it.
 

Mondy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,456
How are these universal healthcares funded? Is this sustainable?

It's funded directly from the taxpayer, as it should be. And the funny thing is, we had a PM jeopardize the integrity of Medicare very recently with a proposed flat fee to see a GP. He was promptly ousted because of the outrage it generated.
 

Galkinator

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,968
Doesn't make any sense to me.
I lived in Australia for a year, as a foreigner, and just for admission to ER I paid about $200-250.
Every GP appointment cost me $50, some heart-related tests cost another $100 or something like that.

I don't want to call bullshit on this, but definitely not anything like I personally experienced.

(This was all at Sydney, NSW so I have no idea if it's any different in other states)
 

Vern

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,097
Doesn't make any sense to me.
I lived in Australia for a year, as a foreigner, and just for admission to ER I paid about $200-250.
Every GP appointment cost me $50, some heart-related tests cost another $100 or something like that.

I don't want to call bullshit on this, but definitely not anything like I personally experienced.

(This was all at Sydney, NSW so I have no idea if it's any different in other states)

When? See my previous post in the thread. I was in QLD if it makes a difference.
 

Mondy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,456
Doesn't make any sense to me.
I lived in Australia for a year, as a foreigner, and just for admission to ER I paid about $200-250.
Every GP appointment cost me $50, some heart-related tests cost another $100 or something like that.

I don't want to call bullshit on this, but definitely not anything like I personally experienced.

(This was all at Sydney, NSW so I have no idea if it's any different in other states)

You have to be a citizen to be apart of Medicare I'm pretty sure. If you were here on a working visa, you were outside that.
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
Here in the land of the free we have people dying from toothaches because they can't afford to go to the dentist. Freedom ain't free!

No kidding! Did you hear about Andy Hallett, who played Lorne in Angel? He had an untreated dental problem that weakened his heart, and after several bouts in hospital due to cardiomyopathy, he died of heart failure at 33. I always wondered if his relatively minor dental problem could have been caught and treated properly if he had lived in Britain where we have regular inexpensive checkups and treatments are subsidised by the National Health Service.

I know Americans like to laugh at us Brits with our crooked teeth, but our record on actual dental health (whether our teeth are in good shape, as opposed to looking pretty) is quite good.
 

Galkinator

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,968
When? See my previous post in the thread. I was in QLD if it makes a difference.
It was in early 2016
You have to be a citizen to be apart of Medicare I'm pretty sure. If you were here on a working visa, you were outside that.
Oh, so is there a reason why the thread is all about a US citizen? I thought the point of the thread was to show anyone get decent and basic health care in Australia (not necessarily a native citizen)

Sorry if it's a misunderstanding
 

Vern

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,097
It was in early 2016

Oh, so is there a reason why the thread is all about a US citizen? I thought the point of the thread was to show anyone get decent and basic health care in Australia (not necessarily a native citizen)

Sorry if it's a misunderstanding

When I was there, it was like 08-09, I was on work visa and I never had an ER visit, but the two doctor visits mentioned before were so cheap they were essentially free.
 

Galkinator

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,968
When I was there, it was like 08-09, I was on work visa and I never had an ER visit, but the two doctor visits mentioned before were so cheap they were essentially free.
I was on a working holiday visa 417, that's why I paid so much! Basically no medicare unless you're a UK citizen which I understand get some limited medicare for free even on a temporary visa (maybe even tourist?)
 

NeoGold123

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
502
Well, this thread made me remember I needed to apply for healthcare for 2018 (US) so I pop on over to the site and fill out the form as I have for the past 4 or whatever years.

Except since I cut back my work hours to go for a degree and student loans don't count as income, and I live in shitty ass stupid backwards Texas that didn't expand medicaid, I'm now in the coverage gap. Too poor for subsidies and too young for medicaid, and I'm not paying $340 a month. Look like I get to eat that awesome $700 fine in 2019's taxes. Fanfuckingtastic.
 

EkStatiC

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,243
Greece
Greek here with a member of my family with cancer.
Chemo cost nothing, doctors cost nothing, the medicine cost is almost nothing ( medicines that cost 6k are free to us, and if some medicine cost, lets say 100€ we pay only 7-8€, the rest IS funded from the state. For the same surgical treatment that in america cost 80k dollars here we pay 1/10 of that. And many more...
A cancer patient is paying almost nothing here for treatment and literally every day i thank everyone who pay his taxes properly.

When i say nothing i obviously mean that the cost is funded by the state.

Afrer all this, even if the Greek goverment want to take from me more than 50% of my income for taxes i will gladly give it to them.
I can live with only the basics if my money helps the rest of the society in any way. (allow every kid to free education, public health for all, to give incentives to little business to grow and many more)
 

Cilla

Member
Oct 29, 2017
610
Queensland, Australia
This is the one thing that worries me as an Australian moving to America to live in two years. I love universal healthcare it has honestly been a life saver for me. Although most people I know have private insurance here it still seems much cheaper than US insurance.
 

hockeypuck

Member
Oct 29, 2017
739
This. If you perceive a doctor to be bad at his job, you should report them to the AMA.
The American Medical Association is a lobbying trade group. It has no actual power over physicians. If you want to report a physician, the two best avenues are
1) the licensing medical board for that state (this is an actual governmental department), and
2) the national specialty board that tests for board certification.
The first one pertains to all practicing doctors of that state, the second one pertains to all doctors of that specialty.

You know what they call a medical student that graduates last in his class?

doctor
"Doctor". It's all in the intonation. As interns we all knew that being called that title by attendings and nurses that it was meant sarcastically.

I'll be honest I've never seen a bad quality GP in the UK. GP ratings and funding schemes tend to keep things at a decent level of quality.
That's because the UK has a system that favors placing the best medical students in the GP group whereas in the US the exact opposite occurs. Thus more Americans end up seeing high-cost specialists. More tests are performed and the overall cost of care rises.
 

metaprogram

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,174
That's because the UK has a system that favors placing the best medical students in the GP group whereas in the US the exact opposite occurs. Thus more Americans end up seeing high-cost specialists. More tests are performed and the overall cost of care rises.

So in the UK the worst physicians are the specialists and surgeons? That doesn't sound comforting.
 

hockeypuck

Member
Oct 29, 2017
739
So in the UK the worst physicians are the specialists and surgeons? That doesn't sound comforting.
It's all relative. I know British surgeons are fantastic. But when the very best American medical students are vying to go into dermatology and ophthalmology, two highly subspecialized, low stress, fields that treat very specific populations with little sway in overall mortality, you can see how that same group of medical students can make an overall bigger impact to public health if they had become GPs instead.

In Germany the best medical students go into pediatrics. At least that's what the infectious disease expert with the Hans Gruber accent told me.
 
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metaprogram

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,174
How big is the gap between the best and the worst? Worst seems kind of loaded, because I would hope if they were actually bad they just wouldn't graduate
 

Duracelllll

Member
Oct 27, 2017
95
Very recently my wife survived an unexpected extremely rare serious medical emergency (75% of people die from it and in the past 15 years less than a handful of people have survived it in all of Australia). She ended up in ICU for 3 days, 10 days total in hospital, emergency surgery that took "hours and hours", had an organ removed, lost 5L of blood, a second non life threatening surgery, tons of tests, scans, injections, medications, 2 more blood transfusions, at one point had 4 lines hooked up to her, even in her feet lol, etc. Total cost at the hospital was $0.00, after we left we've purchased about $30 of medication and there will be some low on going costs related to the organ management. We've also had some follow up specialist appointments, the ones related directly to the problem have all been covered 100%. A couple of them which were tests/scans to check to make sure a similar problem couldn't occur in the future we had to pay some out of pocket (total about $300, we didn't have to do these but we wanted to), and I paid about $85 for parking for 10 days.

I actually asked how much this all cost the government and the specialist said that none of the costs are documented at all as it is just another overhead that would cost time and money to manage and it doesn't matter to the hospital as they receive a lump sum from the government and they do everything they can with that amount. I'd love (hate) to know how much all of this would have cost if we lived in USA...
 

jromz03

Member
Oct 28, 2017
58
I think you overpaid on the Amoxilycillin. Chemist Warehouse have them for less than AUD 8. :S
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,900
Australia: we may run concentration camps but at least we have healthcare sorted out.
 

Xevren

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,567
Wish I could have access to something like that when I needed it. People don't want to know the bills I accumulated when I went in for an appendectomy and the surgeon messed up. Worst feeling is getting bill collector calls while you're still in the hospital because it was just that bad.
 

99Luffy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,344
Even crazier is the fact that the US government already spends more per capita than every other country sans Norway. Must be all those free abortions that Obama gave away.

kGRhUb1.png
 

sd_falter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
304
Australia
Had a tiny lump about the size of a peppercorn in my the skin of my scrotum for months, but I neglected to do anything about it. Having lived in the US up till 2008, I'm just used to not going to getting things looked unless it went critical.​


This is the worrying thing about such a financially punitive system. We're told constantly that prevention is better than cure yet how many people put off genuine issues until they become critical because of the fear of the cost.

You have to wonder long term how much this impacts the US economy with I imagine 10,000s of people letting issues which could've been prevented snowball into full blown chronic and life threatening scenarios.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,215
It's enrollment time again...$21,000 between me and my employer for a family of four. I'll do my best not to use it since it comes with a $3500 deductible. What a great system.
 

Sera

Member
Oct 27, 2017
698
Melbourne
But surely there is variation in the skill of doctors.
I find that its less a variation in skill, but a variation in willingness to listen to the patient and consider multiple possibilities rather than sticking to one initial assumption
I've seen more doctors endanger patients through arrogance rather than a lack of knowledge
my mum was nearly killed by a doctor that kept swearing she had diabetes and then lung problems. Shes only alive today because the lung specialist he sent her to took one look at her and went "you need to see my partner" (he was partnered with a heart specialist) The heart specialist took one look at her and had her hospitalized on the spot.
Both the specialists called up the GP to chew him out, and we got a formal apology after she got out of hospital.
 

hockeypuck

Member
Oct 29, 2017
739
It's enrollment time again...$21,000 between me and my employer for a family of four. I'll do my best not to use it since it comes with a $3500 deductible. What a great system.
That sounds like a high-deductible health plan (HDHP). See if your employer offers a health savings account with it. I recommend opening an HSA to help out with the deductible if needed, but also as an excellent retirement vehicle.
 

Dunban

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,051
Eh, speak for yourself. Not crazy about the idea of halving my income. I know plenty of Aussies who have left because the government takes way too much money.

Australia's overall tax burden is low as far as OECD countries go. Fairly comparable to that of the US, if I recall correctly.

I'll be honest I've never seen a bad quality GP in the UK. GP ratings and funding schemes tend to keep things at a decent level of quality.

The UK is generally considered to produce the highest-quality doctors, or close to it. Though retention is a problem afaik; American compensation is pretty darn compelling.

And the funny thing is, we had a PM jeopardize the integrity of Medicare very recently with a proposed flat fee to see a GP.

The much-maligned consultation fee was designed to solve a problem that actually exists. I have no idea if the implementation was in any way ideal, but it was a shame to see the idea politicised to such a degree. There is much the Liberals should be excoriated on, but this wasn't one of them. In no way was it jeopardising the integrity of the system.

America has an absolutely ginormous military though. Money can only be spent once and the made their choice.

I can only assume you're underestimating both US healthcare expenditure and the positive externalities of the US military.
 

funky

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,527
Got a tumor removed a few years ago here in Ireland for the cost of €700 (or maybe a little bit over)

That included

7 nights in hospital across 2 visits in my own private room
Had 3 ultra sounds and a MRI
Surgery

They made it clear at my first scan that if it looked cancerous that I wasn't leaving and surgery would be that day or the day after. Luckily that wasn't the case (hense the 2 visits)


Really made me appreciate our health service and kind of made me more skittish about moving abroad permanently to a country that couldn't provide a similar system.

I really feel for you american guys who are paying a years pay on a weekend stay.