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Oct 25, 2017
8,291


The judge's job is to make sure that the case is unimpeachable. Part of that is protecting the proceedings from potential appeals. So they ask questions like this in open court to force the prosecution to provide these sorts of answers.

This sort of thing happens pretty often, we just don't normally pay attention to every procedural step of a white collar case.

So this is Trump's way of firing Mueller without firing Mueller?

No. Not even a little bit. No. No. No.

You mean the unredacted order they have bee grilling Rod on in the House? Gee i wonder.

It would only be unredacted for the judge. The document isn't classified, it's sealed for purposes of the investigation. It isn't crazy for the judge to want to see it. Again, it helps the judge ensure that everything is above board and cut off potential avenues for appeal.
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,111
Seattle has a huge homeless problem.

The city government claims it's because of a lack of affordable housing and sides with developers who then profit by building dense expensive condo units with no parking. What they don't build - is affordable housing - unless you believe the fairytale homeless person they like to present - hard working teacher and single mom who can't buy a house in this crazy market!

Well she can't buy a 700,000 condo in Ballard either. And she's not the homeless problem either. Our homelessness insanity (literally tent encampments at every freeway on ramp) is getting worse daily because Seattle is now seen as a magnet for addicts - and the criminals who provide their addiction infrastructure.

The city is ignoring this aspect and using the fictional teacher as a moral cudgel to use against homeowners and residents. And doing almost nothing to fight the heroin epidemic it's policies have amplified geometrically.

And of course that means the city doesn't have finds to support the "real" homeless folks who simply can't afford rent in a suprrheated market. Ironically the mentally ill. Or the physically handicapped or any of the non-addicts and their enablers.

Seattle had basically said, hey if you're addicted to fentanyl, come to Seattle! And the beat cops have to carry naloxone with them daily, and have resuscitated literally hundreds of overdose victims - who recover and come back the next day, and bring more people with them.

It's stunning how poorly it has been handled by incompetent well-meaning socialist types , but also incredibly cynical land developers and low key graft.

The solution needs to address the underlying cause, not its unfortunate side effect - which is homelessness.

It's a law and order problem, a public health problem, an infrastructure problem and then a housing problem - in that order.

Seattle needs to become deeply hostile to drug dealers and addicts, or simply accept that the situation is only getting worse.

Taxing employment would literally just make it worse and drive away employers. Our city is run by slightly corrupt real estate folks and by the students who spent half their education arguing about inclusive semantics and the other half not learning city and civic planning.
I agree with a lot of this, but at the same time the housing crisis is a regional problem, and Seattle alone can only do so much by itself without additional revenue. Our tax system is one of the most regressive anywhere in the country. Yes, it's basically an Amazon tax, but head taxes are not that abnormal, and Amazon has benefited enormously from being in Seattle, in ways that have had significant ill effects on the local population.
 

LinktothePastGOAT

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,879
The judge's job is to make sure that the case is unimpeachable. Part of that is protecting the proceedings from potential appeals. So they ask questions like this in open court to force the prosecution to provide these sorts of answers.

This sort of thing happens pretty often, we just don't normally pay attention to every procedural step of a white collar case.



No. Not even a little bit. No. No. No.



It would only be unredacted for the judge. The document isn't classified, it's sealed for purposes of the investigation. It isn't crazy for the judge to want to see it. Again, it helps the judge ensure that everything is above board and cut off potential avenues for appeal.

I don't understand why the Right is going nuts about this. Worst case the Judge throws out the indictment and Mueller either refiles with another court or passes the info off to the state AG's and they take care of it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,291
If judge tosses manafort indictment I do predict that could be end of the probe.

Tossing the indictment isn't even on the table. The judge is questioning Mueller's place in prosecuting the indictment, not the indictment itself. Take a step back and breathe.

I don't understand why the Right is going nuts about this. Worst case the Judge throws out the indictment and Mueller either refiles with another court or passes the info off to the state AG's and they take care of it.

The right is going nuts because it is the first time in a long time that a judge has asked a hard question of "the bad guy's side" in a while. It's usually Team Trump's lawyers that have to deal with a cranky judge.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,078
My thoughts are that you are dangerous idiots



So wait the House just let those two Aunt Jemimas lie under Oath without giving them a single goddamn perjury charge?

That pisses me off so fucking much. THEY LIED IN A WAY THAT IS AGAINST THE FUCKING LAW.

The next time a liberal is called to testify in the House they should explicitly tell the House GOP to "Fuck Off until you show you are willing to punish Diamond and Silk for lying under oath. I'm not respecting an authority that refuses to enforce the law on Conservatives."
 

Ithil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,431
I don't understand why the Right is going nuts about this. Worst case the Judge throws out the indictment and Mueller either refiles with another court or passes the info off to the state AG's and they take care of it.
They will grab at anything they think is a "win". Their whole shtick is "We are winners who win", so in the face of nonstop losses they have to grasp at straws.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
I agree with a lot of this, but at the same time the housing crisis is a regional problem, and Seattle alone can only do so much by itself without additional revenue. Our tax system is one of the most regressive anywhere in the country. Yes, it's basically an Amazon tax, but head taxes are not that abnormal, and Amazon has benefited enormously from being in Seattle, in ways that have had significant ill effects on the local population.
Seattle has finally started to actually loosen homebuilding/density requirements that have been fucking them up for so long.

If you don't have enough housing, it's because you aren't letting enough be built, not because soulless corporations are giving too many people jobs.
 
Oct 27, 2017
8,655
The World
Tossing of the case is a big setback one way or another. It can get other witnesses to stop cooperating.

All the other it wouldn't amount to much of judge tosses this sounds like what was happening when panhandle votes came in election night.
 

Ogodei

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,256
Coruscant
Tossing of the case is a big setback one way or another. It can get other witnesses to stop cooperating.

All the other it wouldn't amount to much of judge tosses this sounds like what was happening when panhandle votes came in election night.

Calm down. You think this is the first time Bob Mueller's been asked a hard question by a federal judge?

Way too early to make that call.
 

Wilsongt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,547
So they are working on a walk-back on Guiliani's statement?

Lol.

What a tire fire of an administration.
 

skullmuffins

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,439
tossing the case (which, let's be honest, probably means it goes to EDVA prosecutors, not the charges disappearing entirely) won't stop flynn or papadopoulos or gates from cooperating after they've already signed plea agreements and have been flapping their gums for months
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,291
Tossing of the case is a big setback one way or another. It can get other witnesses to stop cooperating.

All the other it wouldn't amount to much of judge tosses this sounds like what was happening when panhandle votes came in election night.

At least you admit that previous trauma is clouding your judgement.

looking at the unredacted document to see if it fits within scope of investigation is one thing. Yammering on about how Mueller has too much power and suggesting it's inappropriate for them to use Manafort to get to Trump is another.

The judge isn't yammering. Jesus. Judges play an important role, they exist as both a representative of the public and justice in court. Because of that they have to challenge lawyers to force issues to be addressed. This process is why judges have the reputation of being smarmy dicks. They always need to push to make sure that cases follow the best path they can.

Yup. The judge is spewing right wing talking points and asking for the same classified documentation Nunes is when the unredacted document shows plainly Manafort is well within scope.

There is a huge difference between Congressional republicans seeing the unredacted memo and a federal judge seeing it. The memo isn't classified. Parts are redacted to protect the case. One of the reasons the memo exists in the first place was so that it could be shown to judges! If you can't show the full memo to a federal judge, then what purpose does it serve?

The CNN article claims the memo already outlines the Manafort case is within the scope of his investigation:



This judge seems to just be fucking with the case because he doesn't like where it's headed.

What are you basing that on? If you don't trust judges and the DOJ to properly handle cases, then you can go hang out in the fever swamps.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,877
I agree with a lot of this, but at the same time the housing crisis is a regional problem, and Seattle alone can only do so much by itself without additional revenue. Our tax system is one of the most regressive anywhere in the country. Yes, it's basically an Amazon tax, but head taxes are not that abnormal, and Amazon has benefited enormously from being in Seattle, in ways that have had significant ill effects on the local population.

Yeah, the biggest issue is that we have no state income tax because the Washington State constitution is utter garbage and we also can't do local income tax because of the...garbage Washington State constitution.

So instead, we have these regressive sales taxes, almost ten percent in most places in the county, that combine with high rents partly because of strategically-poor development and generally a lack of space to build out because of all the water (yes, I know, build up, but most people want their single-family homes). Combine that with scumbag NIMBYs all over the place, and it goes beyond the issues with Seattle being an attractive place for addicts.
 

Deleted member 4614

Oct 25, 2017
6,345
So wait the House just let those two Aunt Jemimas lie under Oath without giving them a single goddamn perjury charge?

That pisses me off so fucking much. THEY LIED IN A WAY THAT IS AGAINST THE FUCKING LAW.

The next time a liberal is called to testify in the House they should explicitly tell the House GOP to "Fuck Off until you show you are willing to punish Diamond and Silk for lying under oath. I'm not respecting an authority that refuses to enforce the law on Conservatives."

To be fair, if a Democratic ally lied in front of a committee I would not be pushing for the Democrats to make perjury charges. That's like asking a fish to climb a tree.
 

dragonchild

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,270
The judge's job is to make sure that the case is unimpeachable. Part of that is protecting the proceedings from potential appeals. So they ask questions like this in open court to force the prosecution to provide these sorts of answers.

This sort of thing happens pretty often, we just don't normally pay attention to every procedural step of a white collar case.
This. People don't like having their time wasted, whereas an old trick for lawyers when the client is as guilty as sin itself is running out the clock, so attacking the case with right-wing arguments is basically SOP for nipping it all in the bud. These arguments are going to be raised one way or another, and the judge knows it. I don't know if the judge is crooked, but BlastProcessing is 100% correct that even when judges are impartial, they will sound like bullies at proceedings but it's mainly to greatly expedite what would otherwise be the lawyers raising the same arguments crumb by crumb.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Yeah, the biggest issue is that we have no state income tax because the Washington State constitution is utter garbage and we also can't do local income tax because of the...garbage Washington State constitution.

So instead, we have these regressive sales taxes, almost ten percent in most places in the county, that combine with high rents partly because of strategically-poor development and generally a lack of space to build out because of all the water (yes, I know, build up, but most people want their single-family homes). Combine that with scumbag NIMBYs all over the place, and it goes beyond the issues with Seattle being an attractive place for addicts.
The West coast seems to be successful completely in spite of itself.
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,111
Seattle has finally started to actually loosen homebuilding/density requirements that have been fucking them up for so long.

If you don't have enough housing, it's because you aren't letting enough be built, not because soulless corporations are giving too many people jobs.
Seattle has added more units of housing in the past couple years than in entire prior decades, but housing prices have doubled. 10k new apartments opened last year alone. Seattle also doesn't have control over Bellevue, Shoreline, Kirkland, Lynnwood, etc. zoning. Then you get to all the other externalities that drive prices way up- the increasing cost of everything, the bursting-at-the-seams infrastructure and traffic congestion, etc. Yes, we need to upzone even more than the historical amount that we are, but that creates more market rate housing, not affordable housing, which is what the new revenue will be used for.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Seattle has added more units of housing in the past couple years than in entire prior decades, but housing prices have doubled. 10k new apartments opened last year alone. Seattle also doesn't have control over Bellevue, Shoreline, Kirkland, Lynnwood, etc. zoning. Then you get to all the other externalities that drive prices way up- the increasing cost of everything, the bursting-at-the-seams infrastructure and traffic congestion, etc. Yes, we need to upzone even more than the historical amount that we are, but that creates more market rate housing, not affordable housing, which is what the new revenue will be used for.
Market rate housing creates affordable housing because people move out of their old homes and into the new ones. It's the Hermit Crab shell exchange, but with people.
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,111
Market rate housing creates affordable housing because people move out of their old homes and into the new ones. It's the Hermit Crab shell exchange, but with people.
Yes, so we should both upzone and have new construction, AND build affordable housing units as able so that people don't have to wait a decade for relief.
 

AndyD

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,602
Nashville
I don't think he's announced anything, but he must have over a dozen of these paintings already, just lying around his mansion staring vacantly at him in the middle of the night.

I'd go to that opening in a heartbeat.
In the Comedians in Cars Gettign Coffee episode, you get a glimpse of his studio/house and it is indeed filled with paintings.
 

Euphoria

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,620
Earth
Someone please clear this up for me if possible.

Okay, Trump and Rudy sat down for days and came to an agreement on what to say on Hannity.

The whole thing blows up in their face.

Now suddenly Rudy has only been there for a day and didn't have his facts straight, yet those incorrect statements were agreed on by Trump?
 

Lonewulfeus

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,075
Just give people housing assistance instead of forcing affordable housing units to be built.

Why should the government prop up yet another set of rich business people? Forcing affordable housing is the way to go, if you don't make them build X number of affordable homes for every ridiculously priced house or complex they build it won't get done. Or alternatively, do both.
 

BWoog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
38,466
Someone please clear this up for me if possible.

Okay, Trump and Rudy sat down for days and came to an agreement on what to say on Hannity.

The whole thing blows up in their face.

Now suddenly Rudy has only been there for a day and didn't have his facts straight, yet those incorrect statements were agreed on by Trump?

When shit goes wrong, Trump blames someone else, always.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,877
The West coast seems to be successful completely in spite of itself.

We do have unique challenges here, and change in Seattle has been pretty rapid. Thirty years ago, Seattle was a blue-collar city full of dock and factory workers. Now, it is something else entirely. Portland has had the same experience.

But the state constitution in Washington is also written for maximum fuckery on top of that.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Why should the government prop up yet another set of rich business people? Forcing affordable housing is the way to go, if you don't make them build X number of affordable homes for every ridiculously priced house or complex they build it won't get done. Or alternatively, do both.
We already do? Why are you so against constructing housing?
I'm not against constructing housing! I'm explicitly for it. The reason Housing prices are crazy is a simple supply/demand problem. Supply is too low, therefore prices are too high. Increase supply enough and prices will become normal. One of the reason "luxury" stuff is all that gets build in some areas is because those are the only people developers can afford to build/market to because zoning restrictions make anything else unfeasible.

I'm against "Affordable housing" as an integral part of this for these reasons-

a) The problem is fundamentally one of a mass housing shortage. You need businesses to build homes. If you look at graphs about regional home construction vs market rate prices, the home construction prices are below the market rate in a lot of these places. The issue isn't that the homes are unprofitable to make, it's that businesses are prevented from making them by local residents via local politicians.
b) Adding "affordable" units makes them a feast/famine lottery system where some massively benefit and others do not arbitrarily.
c) This is the exact same sort of behavior we see w/ things like Rent Control. Pushing buildings away from market rate pricing via rent control and such results in things like a lack of maintenance in those properties by the owners/landlords as a direct result. Public housing has always suffered from a number of issues.
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,111
I'm not against constructing housing! I'm explicitly for it. The reason Housing prices are crazy is a simple supply/demand problem. Supply is too low, therefore prices are too high. Increase supply enough and prices will become normal. One of the reason "luxury" stuff is all that gets build in some areas is because those are the only people developers can afford to build/market to because zoning restrictions make anything else unfeasible.

I'm against "Affordable housing" as an integral part of this for these reasons-

a) The problem is fundamentally one of a mass housing shortage. You need businesses to build homes. If you look at graphs about regional home construction vs market rate prices, the home construction prices are below the market rate in a lot of these places. The issue isn't that the homes are unprofitable to make, it's that businesses are prevented from making them by local residents via local politicians.
b) Adding "affordable" units makes them a feast/famine lottery system where some massively benefit and others do not arbitrarily.
c) This is the exact same sort of behavior we see w/ things like Rent Control. Pushing buildings away from market rate pricing via rent control and such results in things like a lack of maintenance in those properties by the owners/landlords as a direct result. Public housing has always suffered from a number of issues.
I'm not under any illusions that giving the city money to build housing is going to fix all the problems, but it's a matter of helping some people vs not.
 
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