Erpy

Member
May 31, 2018
3,005
Is he saying it should never be part of their platform or they should ignore it altogether? LGBTQ+ is part of the democratic base so of course it cant be ignored.

It can't really be ignored, but it can't be put on the forefront of the election either. Which is part of the Democratic dilemma.

The GOP has one base. The Trump base. Well, that's not ENTIRELY true. The base consists of three sub-groups; the MAGA crowd (who feels culturally diminishment and is all about lashing out + hardliners on immigration), the white evangelicals (who want to remake the judiciary) and the donor class. (who want their tax cuts) But in practice it's still one base since none of the demands of these three sub-groups contradict the other subgroups'. The MAGA-base will accept tax cuts and Kavanaughs as long as they can have detention camps and a president who triggers the libs. The evangelicals will accept tax cuts and detention camps/tweet storms as long as they can have their judges. And the donor class will overlook the camps, cofveve's and Kavanaughs as long as they get their tax cuts.

The Democratic party has two bases. The Biden base and the AOC base. Both are needed to win the election. Both are deeply offended by Trump, but neither one can be exclusively catered to. Unlike the Republican base, these two camps don't fit as neatly together. The AOC base is this place. The Biden base consists, among other sub-groups, of older black and latino voters who are rather religious and more socially conservative than the "woke" base would probably prefer. This base, in the words of the author, is indeed not particularly interested in pronouns and the nitty gritty of gender identities.

Economic equality and efficient and well-functioning (non-corrupt) government is where these two bases overlap. Culture war issues and identity politics are where these two bases tend to have some friction. That's why Republicans will always try to steer the election towards that particular playing field. Because they don't have to do balancing acts there while Democrats do. Like all the other in-built advantages the GOP enjoys, it sucks, but it's political reality that none of the candidates can afford to ignore. What the author's saying is not "LGBTQ+ people suck and should get back in the closet". What he's saying is don't give the Republican Party too many openings to make the culture war the central pillar of the 2020 election because you have handicaps on that field that they don't and focussing on stomping out plutocracy and corruption allows you to take on the GOP without playing to their strengths.

The hot takes here about his homophobia tend to miss the fact that he's not entirely wrong about this aspect of the political environment.

Also it's funny because Trump didn't win by campaigning on culture war issues

He did actually. One of the ways he reeled the alt-right and MAGA-crowd in was by caricaturing the left as overreaching on the political correctness spectrum who send twitter mobs after everyone who doesn't mind his pronouns.
 

vitamind

Member
Nov 1, 2018
219
You said you would be fine with a Democrat politician saying they hate gay people on the campaign trail. It being a 'lie' is irrelevant, it still spreads homophobia. That's literally what Trump did to get the Evangelicals to vote for him, lied about hating gay people. Problem is...when you campaign on something you have to make good on it once in office. You are getting called out because your statement was bizarre and pointless.

How many times do we see a campaign promise not followed through? There's no point in arguing over a hypothetical situation involving hyperbole in an attempt to iterate how bad I want the Dems to win. It was poorly communicated on my end.
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,118
He did actually. One of the ways he reeled the alt-right and MAGA-crowd in was by caricaturing the left as overreaching on the political correctness spectrum who send twitter mobs after everyone who doesn't mind his pronouns.

Has Trump ever said anything about pronoun use?

Caricaturing the left as overreaching, sure. But that's mostly on stuff like rape and sexual assault. I cannot for the life of me remember him ever mentioning pronoun use.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
It can't really be ignored, but it can't be put on the forefront of the election either. Which is part of the Democratic dilemma.

The GOP has one base. The Trump base. Well, that's not ENTIRELY true. The base consists of three sub-groups; the MAGA crowd (who feels culturally diminishment and is all about lashing out + hardliners on immigration), the white evangelicals (who want to remake the judiciary) and the donor class. (who want their tax cuts) But in practice it's still one base since none of the demands of these three sub-groups contradict the other subgroups'. The MAGA-base will accept tax cuts and Kavanaughs as long as they can have detention camps and a president who triggers the libs. The evangelicals will accept tax cuts and detention camps/tweet storms as long as they can have their judges. And the donor class will overlook the camps, cofveve's and Kavanaughs as long as they get their tax cuts.

The Democratic party has two bases. The Biden base and the AOC base. Both are needed to win the election. Both are deeply offended by Trump, but neither one can be exclusively catered to. Unlike the Republican base, these two camps don't fit as neatly together. The AOC base is this place. The Biden base consists, among other sub-groups, of older black and latino voters who are rather religious and more socially conservative than the "woke" base would probably prefer. This base, in the words of the author, is indeed not particularly interested in pronouns and the nitty gritty of gender identities.

Economic equality and efficient and well-functioning (non-corrupt) government is where these two bases overlap. Culture war issues and identity politics are where these two bases tend to have some friction. That's why Republicans will always try to steer the election towards that particular playing field. Because they don't have to do balancing acts there while Democrats do. Like all the other in-built advantages the GOP enjoys, it sucks, but it's political reality that none of the candidates can afford to ignore. What the author's saying is not "LGBTQ+ people suck and should get back in the closet". What he's saying is don't give the Republican Party too many openings to make the culture war the central pillar of the 2020 election because you have handicaps on that field that they don't and focussing on stomping out plutocracy and corruption allows you to take on the GOP without playing to their strengths.

The hot takes here about his homophobia tend to miss the fact that he's not entirely wrong about this aspect of the political environment.



He did actually. One of the ways he reeled the alt-right and MAGA-crowd in was by caricaturing the left as overreaching on the political correctness spectrum who send twitter mobs after everyone who doesn't mind his pronouns.
There are some things you can't compromise on. If black church ladies are going to abandon the Democrats because they had the audacity to support gay rights then that's a really dumb decision on the part of the black church ladies. The problem is...I don't think the black church ladies are dumb. They aren't going to abandon the Dems, and the article (nor do you) provides no basis for that claim. It's a bullshit argument on its face.
 

Deleted member 11413

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22,961
How many times do we see a campaign promise not followed through? There's no point in arguing over a hypothetical situation involving hyperbole in an attempt to iterate how bad I want the Dems to win. It was poorly communicated on my end.
I mean you brought up this really weird, bad, and pointless hypothetical and people rightly called you out on it. If your point was "even a Democrat bigot is better than Trump" then like...OK but maybe the bar shouldn't be that fucking low in the first place. Also there is no evidence that supporting gay rights is going to make a Democrat lose in the general, so the entire hypothetical you posited is based on a false premise. That's why you are getting heat for it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,885
I think the assholes who spent their entire lives leveraging the votes of fascists and theocrat fuckwits should avoid telling us the same story now that their monster has turned on them.

I don't care about embarrassed Republicans or their tender fucking fee-fees. Your attempts to get tax-cuts at any cost has led us to where we are now. You're passengers, you don't get to drive until normal folks are convinced you're not going to hand the wheel to swamp Nazis, again.

If you don't like that, then start running third party to hobble these freaks in red districts/ states, otherwise you're just in the backseat complaining that the AC isn't turned up high enough.
 

Deleted member 11413

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Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Could you elaborate on why you think that?
Are churches exempt from having to pay taxes? The short answer is "yes."

For purposes of U.S. tax law, churches are considered to be public charities, also known as Section 501(c)(3) organizations. As such, they are generally exempt from federal, state, and local income and property taxes. "Exempt" means they don't have to pay these taxes. This is so even though they may earn substantial amounts of money.

Why are churches classified as charities? Because, under American tax law, charitable activity includes the advancement of religion. Atheists may not like it, but it has always been this way.
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/are-churches-always-exempt.html
 

hanshen

Member
Jun 24, 2018
3,937
Chicago, IL
The perpetual appeal to the centrists is how we got to this mess in the first place. The political center is as conservative as it can get.
 

Erpy

Member
May 31, 2018
3,005
Has Trump ever said anything about pronoun use?

Caricaturing the left as overreaching, sure. But that's mostly on stuff like rape and sexual assault. I cannot for the life of me remember him ever mentioning pronoun use.

That was merely a figure of speech on my part. I don't think Trump has been overly vocal on gender identity (though I'm sure he's mocked the concept and retweeted stuff mocking the concept), but his general message has been that the liberal base consists of thought policemen who overreact to verbal offenses and that message has found a willing audience among his base.

There are some things you can't compromise on. If black church ladies are going to abandon the Democrats because they had the audacity to support gay rights then that's a really dumb decision on the part of the black church ladies. The problem is...I don't think the black church ladies are dumb. They aren't going to abandon the Dems, and the article (nor do you) provides no basis for that claim. It's a bullshit argument on its face.

Every candidate running on a Democratic ticket supports gay rights. (aside from maybe Tulsi, but she's a C-lister who will never be president) The difference between campaigns is how central it is to their message.
 

chaostrophy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,392
What he's saying is don't give the Republican Party too many openings to make the culture war the central pillar of the 2020 election because you have handicaps on that field that they don't and focussing on stomping out plutocracy and corruption allows you to take on the GOP without playing to their strengths.

The hot takes here about his homophobia tend to miss the fact that he's not entirely wrong about this aspect of the political environment.

I agree that the Dems must stay focused on stomping out plutocracy, and social justice issues by themselves aren't enough to win. But I disagree that doing an LGBT town hall or any other specific outreach to minority groups is losing focus on economic equality. Warren in particular (out of the candidates at that town hall) is strong on economic issues. Her strong support of LGBT rights isn't giving Republicans any openings to say she's just about the culture war because she has plans she can point to designed to make most people's lives better- including cishet white people.
 

Deleted member 11413

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That was merely a figure of speech on my part. I don't think Trump has been overly vocal on gender identity (though I'm sure he's mocked the concept and retweeted stuff mocking the concept), but his general message has been that the liberal base consists of thought policemen who overreact to verbal offenses and that message has found a willing audience among his base.



Every candidate running on a Democratic ticket supports gay rights. (aside from maybe Tulsi, but she's a C-lister who will never be president) The difference between campaigns is how central it is to their message.
It should be central to every candidate's message. It's a serious civil rights issue. You didn't even address the substance of my post, which was addressing your 'black church lady' strawman.
 

TheBaldEmperor

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,878
Stop. We don't need shitty conservative votes. We need democrat votes. And what makes democrats stay home and not vote is caving to shitty conservatives.

You're 100% correct that we need democrat votes. Focus should be on democratic voter turnout. The people I mentioned exist and it is happening. Nothing I said was untrue, though.
 

NCR Ranger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,939
Meh. Republicans have been making mountains out of molehills for decades, so the strategy in the article seems self-defeating. The fuckers tried to make Obama's choice of suit and mustard a national scandal, so you might as well have them go after you for things that will energize your base everytime it comes up.
 
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Mulciber

Member
Aug 22, 2018
5,217
I saw a few people talking about "thought police" on Facebook, but I can't imagine for a second any of them were voting Democrat anyway.

I definitely know a few Christians that were furious that they might not be legally allowed to be bigots in their church, including an old friend of mine who is a priest. Again: weren't voting Dem.

This kind of talk is good, and it's not pushing anyone away who would be on our side.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,745
The hot takes here about his homophobia tend to miss the fact that he's not entirely wrong about this aspect of the political environment.

His homophobia is the main takeaway from what he's saying.

Democrats care about human rights. LGBT rights are just that. He's a homophobe, so of course he doesn't want to hear about LGBT rights. That's why he's wrong. "Hot takes about his homophobia" indeed.
 

Shyotl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,272
'Ex'-Republicans : I can't believe they aren't talking about ME. Everything that isn't solely focused on ME (the straight white christian male) is identity politics.

Baww.
 

Crackhead_Bob

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,865
There are some things you can't compromise on. If black church ladies are going to abandon the Democrats because they had the audacity to support gay rights then that's a really dumb decision on the part of the black church ladies. The problem is...I don't think the black church ladies are dumb. They aren't going to abandon the Dems, and the article (nor do you) provides no basis for that claim. It's a bullshit argument on its face.
It's been my observation that the GOP will use culture war issues regardless of whether or not the democrats bring it up. In fact, I remember in 2004 it was the GOP who kept harping on the issue of gay marriage more predominantly than the gays were. It was the Iraq War and Abu Ghraib that were front and center.

Assuming that progressives were to follow this advice, it wouldn't do them favors in the end, because the press was subtly blaming gay marriage for costing John Kerry the election. But when the republicans lost in 2008, not one peep from the media questioning John McCain's ill judgment in bringing the eminently unqualified Sarah Palin onto his ticket. We all knew why she was brought aboard, and it had little to do with her stewardship of the state of Alaska. Was she not a liability to the GOP? She not only came off as unhinged, but woefully ignorant to boot.

I roll my eyes whenever the gop/religious right harps on their typical issues, but in no way should progressives wilt on the assumption that standing up for individual rights will alienate moderates.

Has it not occurred to anyone that it is the evangelicals who turn off most Americans? Shouldn't progressives commit themselves to fearlessly opposing the Franklin Graham's and the Pat Robertson's of the world the same way they do when it comes to the NRA? We're always complaining about these bullshit antiabortion laws, so why aren't we taking the fight to them rather than sorting it out in the courts?

Why do progressive activists choose to continue to debate these people in good faith while at the same time have begun to question the ethics of debating white supremacists? Evangelicals aren't going to be persuaded any more than white supremacists, not that either ever cared about the truth to begin with.

A good percentage of decent American's are horrified that an accused sexual assaulter is President of the United States. A large swath of Trump's supporters are evangelicals. Why democrats haven't tried to contain them through marginalization is beyond me. As long as they try to maintain a passive stance when it comes to the religious right, the GOP will continue to traffick in these culture war issues in elections.
 

Deleted member 11413

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It's been my observation that the GOP will use culture war issues regardless of whether or not the democrats bring it up. In fact, I remember in 2004 it was the GOP who kept harping on the issue of gay marriage more predominantly than the gays were. It was the Iraq War and Abu Ghraib that were front and center.

Assuming that progressives were to follow this advice, it wouldn't do them favors in the end, because the press was subtly blaming gay marriage for costing John Kerry the election. But when the republicans lost in 2008, not one peep from the media questioning John McCain's ill judgment in bringing the eminently unqualified Sarah Palin onto his ticket. We all knew why she was brought aboard, and it had little to do with her stewardship of the state of Alaska. Was she not a liability to the GOP? She not only came off as unhinged, but woefully ignorant to boot.

I roll my eyes whenever the gop/religious right harps on their typical issues, but in no way should progressives wilt on the assumption that standing up for individual rights will alienate moderates.

Has it not occurred to anyone that it is the evangelicals who turn off most Americans? Shouldn't progressives commit themselves to fearlessly opposing the Franklin Graham's and the Pat Robertson's of the world the same way they do when it comes to the NRA? We're always complaining about these bullshit antiabortion laws, so why aren't we taking the fight to them rather than sorting it out in the courts?

Why do progressive activists choose to continue to debate these people in good faith while at the same time have begun to question the ethics of debating white supremacists? Evangelicals aren't going to be persuaded any more than white supremacists, not that either ever cared about the truth to begin with.

A good percentage of decent American's are horrified that an accused sexual assaulter is President of the United States. A large swath of Trump's supporters are evangelicals. Why democrats haven't tried to contain them through marginalization is beyond me. As long as they try to maintain a passive stance when it comes to the religious right, the GOP will continue to traffick in these culture war issues in elections.
Yeah fair point.
 

Servbot24

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
43,539
It's fine to have a debate forum where everyone agrees. We need the LGBTQ community fired up about voting.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Sounds like Tom Nichols is a piece of shit who doesn't care about people who have different experiences than him. Hell he even admits it lol
 

Capra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,865
"Now I really don't wanna vote Trump, but if you keep reminding me of the gays I might just have to."
 
Oct 28, 2017
6,366
Yeah, we aren't allies . He did not say shit when the gop was cultivating the possibility of Trump. Then he cut and ran when his complicity allowed Trump to take it over.

I don't want advice from a coward like this. Also, that town hall wasn't for him.
 

Alcoremortis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,742
It's funny, the republicans never seem to worry about losing voters by mouthing off about how much they're gonna put queer people back in our little box every time they get a microphone. It's only an 'issue' when you want to actually improve things, I guess. Bigotry, it seems, is always an acceptable topic of election conversation.
 
Oct 27, 2017
8,013
I think it was the 2004 election that Rove managed to poison with doomsday scenarios about gay marriage and what it would do to the fabric of society, despite Democrats not really pushing on that issue. What the writer is warning about, I imagine, is making the culture wars the primary arena in which to fight the election. Because that's the one area where Republicans have the home field advantage. Heck, it's the one area where Trump can even function. (the dude probably already forgot what the nuclear triad means) The GOP's voting base is more culturally homogenic than the Democrats' big tent. Their media ecosystem is all culture wars all the time, so they excel in their quick and spiffy messenging. Whenever the economy comes to the forefront (1992, 2008) or the opponent can be defined as "the distant manager type who fired your dad" (2012), Democrats tend to prosper. Whenever the culture war or identity politics become the main playing field (2004, 2016) Republicans tend to benefit.

Democrats shouldn't worry that white evangelicals are turned off by stuff like Harris' pronouns-introduction or Beto's easily twistable words on churches and gay-dependent tax excemptions, because white evangelicals are already gonna turn out en masse for Trump. What they should be more wary of is how their statements play among older black church-going ladies in the mid-west. The fact that Dems always have to perform their balancing act between that constituency and the liberal twitter crowd while the GOP can go full hog on "owning the libs" means the latter have a natural advantage. "Don't play on the opposition's home field" is kinda electoral politics 101, which is what the article writer's point seems to be, moreso than blatant homophobia.

Of course, "woo the base in the primary and then pivot back to the center to some degree when the general election rolls around" is also electoral politics 101 so part of what the author is complaining about is unavoidable.
You're right, it was 2004. Gay marriage and Swift Boating.

And excellent follow up analysis, thanks for the post
 

pokeystaples

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,465
I couldn't disagree more. Democrats are defending fundamental rights against a "culture warrior" minority. Not for a second should they stop protecting the rights and safety of lgbt people.
Totally agree. I'm so tired of meeting people halfway when it comes to the rights of queer folks. The article is on some bullshit.