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Deleted member 58846

User requested account closure
Banned
Jul 28, 2019
5,086
So, after A Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time, I proceed to the next step in my journey: Majora's Mask.

A lot of people were excited about me playing this one, and it appears to be a bit of a fan favorite. I can certainly see why: Majora's Mask is totally unlike any other Zelda game I have played. Actually, it's totally unlike any other Nintendo game I have played. To be honest, it might be unlike any other video game, period, I have played. There are good and bad sides to this.

First I'm going to talk about the good stuff: let's start with the obvious, which is the atmosphere. The atmosphere is incredible. I was playing on a 2DS XL, and the screen is super small there, but it was still amazing how effective the game's atmosphere was. The slow palpable dread that it builds up is fantastic.

Also great: the writing, sense of place, and characters. Clocktown might be one of the liveliest in game cities I have ever seen, and this is from an almost 20 year old game. It's a place that it feels like exists independent of your involvement or engagement with it, and I actually confirmed this by spending a few cycles doing nothing but observing the NPCs and their surprisingly fleshed out routines and interactions passively.

Those NPCs are the stars of the show, really: they give Clocktown its character, and their stories and quests are what give Majora's Mask its flavor. There are so many surprisingly dark, twisted, and just plain odd stories here, and every single one of them is framed against the backdrop of impending and inescapable doom. Majora's Mask hits really hard: the storytelling in this game works on a level few other games manage, because of how inextricably it ties it all into its in game mechanics. Reuniting two lovers elicited an emotional response to begin with, but then knowing that it would not last, and that the whole thing would need to be reset anyway, hurt even harder.

The NPCs and the writing lead to what I feel might be some of the best side content I have ever seen in a game. Actually, calling it side content almost feels like cheating, since so much of Majora's Mask is this side content- Majora's mask exists and thrives in these smaller moments.

The sense of eerie displacement in this game is further amplified because of its reuse of Ocarina of Time assets. Majora's Mask is famously an asset flip, but it uses that development limitation to further its central objective of furthering a sense of unease and discomfort for the player.

But I did actually have moments of frustration in Majora's Mask, and this is the first time I remember myself actually having major criticism for a Zelda game. But as much as I appreciate what Majora's Mask does, a lot of the time, it feels very tiresome to play. This is exacerbated by generally weak dungeon design (the first two dungeons lack any complexity, while the third dungeon, Great Bay, is my single least favorite Zelda dungeon yet), the constraint imposed by the constant time limit (though you get various tools to deal with it eventually), a smaller (though denser) world, which to me runs antithetical to the spirit of exploration and adventure I most associate Zelda with, and the repetition inherent to the game.

Majora's Mask also marks the only time I almost gave up on a Zelda game entirely- Great Bay was so bad, I just about gave up, and figured I'd stop playing, but I returned to it the next day and just grit my teeth and went through it. It's a good thing I did, because Stone Tower is conversely my favorite Zelda dungeon yet (it takes central gimmick from the excellent Forest Temple from OOT, and literally flips it on its head), and the ending is spectacular, and so well earned.

In the end, I'm glad I stuck with Majora's Mask, and I definitely see why it has such a fervent fan following. I wish I could say I enjoyed it as much as so many people obviously do, but a lot of it stuck out the wrong way for me. It's still a great game, and I liked it a lot, but it's my least favorite of the ones I have played so far (BOTW>LTTP>OOT>MM), and wore thin on me a fair few times. Still, in so many ways, it's still far beyond anything any other game manages even today, 20 years later- I give it credit for that, and I fully understand why it is so beloved.

BONUS: For my next Zelda game, I can either play A Link Between Worlds (I own a copy of the game, and I have a 2DS XL), or I can play The Wind Waker, which technically comes next, but which I do not own a copy or system for. Do you think it's advisabe for me to continue playing these "in order" (me having played BOTW first notwithstanding), or should I just break the order and play ALBW?
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,922
*Reads the thread title*
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Yeah the dungeon design is fairly weak and the time mechanic can be frustrating. I love the atmosphere of the game though and it's definitely my favorite
 

Foltzie

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
6,816
Go ahead and play ALBW, its presented as a sequel of sorts to A Link to the Past, so you aren't skipping anything in the progression of 3D Zelda mechanics.

When you do get to Wind Waker, consider the Wii U version if you can, it really sands off some the rough edges of the Gamecube version.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,380
Majora's Mask is my favorite Zelda and one of my favorite games in general but I think your takeaway is pretty fair. It's definitely an acquired taste. I'm glad you enjoyed it as much as you did.
 

Raijinto

self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
10,091
Majora's Mask is the best of the bunch IMO. Practically every single aspect is excellent and it all ties together so well. I also agree with Matthewmatosis who called it the best videogame sequel ever, as it stands alone as a great (even better than its predecessor) game without completely overshadowing OoT or just relying on its template for what a Zelda game could be.
 

unicornKnight

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,267
Athens, Greece
Great Bay the area or the dungeon? Because I loved the temple but hated the zora stuff before, especial getting those eggs.

PS: I like the game, it's great at times but imo it also have the lowest lows of the series. I enjoyed Wind Waker more.

PS2: Go for LBW next, don't buy a console only for Wind Waker.
 

Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,589
BONUS: For my next Zelda game, I can either play A Link Between Worlds (I own a copy of the game, and I have a 2DS XL), or I can play The Wind Waker, which technically comes next, but which I do not own a copy or system for. Do you think it's advisabe for me to continue playing these "in order" (me having played BOTW first notwithstanding), or should I just break the order and play ALBW?
I told you forever ago to play Link's Awakening.

I don't really like MM either
 

abrack

Unshakable Resolve
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,803
DFW
BONUS: For my next Zelda game, I can either play A Link Between Worlds (I own a copy of the game, and I have a 2DS XL), or I can play The Wind Waker, which technically comes next, but which I do not own a copy or system for. Do you think it's advisabe for me to continue playing these "in order" (me having played BOTW first notwithstanding), or should I just break the order and play ALBW?

I think, ideally, you will want to play the 3D Zeldas in release order, but I think you can pepper in the 2D ones whenever you feel like. There aren't gonna be any amazing QOL features in ALBW that you'll miss going back to Wind Waker or Twilight Princess.

Also don't ignore The Oracle of Ages/Seasons and Minish Cap though...
 

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,417
I can see your complaints about the dungeons I guess, I disagree though I think they're pretty great. Stone Tower is the best one in the series imo. Just nails everything about a classic Zelda dungeon.

Great level design, strong puzzles, great minibosses and boss, awesome music and atmosphere. Love the visuals too.
 

ibyea

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,164
Huh, I thought the dungeon design was extremely strong, as three of the dungeons opt for a global type design where knowing the whole is an important aspect of solving the dungeon.
 

Tatsu91

Banned
Apr 7, 2019
3,147
*Reads the thread title*
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Yeah the dungeon design is fairly weak and the time mechanic can be frustrating. I love the atmosphere of the game though and it's definitely my favorite
Dungeons could definitely better but they all have a premise i love in 3/4 of them follow in the symmetrical main room thing which i love
 

Space Lion

Banned
May 24, 2019
1,015
Majora's Mask is pretty overrated.

It used to be my favorite Zelda, partially for the unique gameplay and story. I hadn't played it in ten years. I ended up thinking much less of it last year when I replayed it. The story is less interesting when you know what happens for me. And I don't find the gameplay as good. I replayed it on the 3ds version which makes some things better and it just felt tedious for me. Like, there's a point where you wait for Kafei to enter the Ikana Canyon and I'm waiting there for literally 5-10 minutes for this fucker. Just sitting there. I was bored out of my mind. Then if you fail the puzzle of the mask thing elevator belt thing you have to redo it and wait for Kafei fucking all over again. A lot of its content is tedium. Like sneaking into the Gerudo fortress. I felt Ocarina's bit was much better. Then there's the part after you beat the Snowhead Temple, and there's a race. If you lose the race, you need to go and beat the boss all over again, then get the damn bomb, then redo the race. It's just tedious shit. The dungeons aren't that great when replaying them besides Stone Tower. The tension of having to complete a dungeon in three days is gone for me because I managed to complete every dungeon (besides Stone Tower) within two days. The story is okay but only memorable due to Nintendo's penchant for their stories usually being kiddie fare. I found it a lot less interesting this time.

I beat it and just came away with a shrug. Previously I had found it to be a unique, highly mature experience. This time i found it to be one giant tedious slog. Link to the Past, Ocarina of Time, and Breath of the WIld make it its bitch. I find it to be a pretty lower tier Zelda now and have no desire to replay it. Most of the hubbub about the game is around its uniqueness. Majora's Mask is a great example that, just like Undertale, sometimes uniqueness doesn't make a good game.

I'm just a different person with different tastes compared to ten years ago unfortunately and MM ain't it.
 

EarthPainting

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,878
Town adjacent to Silent Hill
Your experience pretty much echoed my own, OP. Love the atmosphere and the focus on characters and sidequests, but I don't like actually playing the game. Partially it's by design, the game is supposed to be oppressive and a downer. Not sure if that unpleasantness is supposed to be reflected in the game's dungeon design though. That more feels like the game just had barely any time in the oven, and lacks the polish and flow that Zelda dungeons typically get.
 

Crushed

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,737
The most important part of Majora's Mask's gameplay, for me, is realizing how the time system actually works and bending it to your will. Every time you collect a permanent upgrade (an item, ability, song, etc), it's essentially a checkpoint that lets you know that even if you somehow take too long, you can safely rewind time now and lose 0 progress. It's also why the dungeons love to use that central room mechanic and the key items are arrows; if you think it'll take you too long to beat the rest of the dungeon then you can reset time right after getting the item, warp right back to the dungeon entrance, and then be in that central room where you unlock the second half with the arrow with a full three days ahead of you.

Of course, knowing that the game lets you triple the time limit from practically the very start helps.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,874
One of the reasons people love it is how it sticks with you so long afterwards. I'd say reassess after some time. Some of its frustrations are easier to get around on a second play through.
 

ibyea

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,164
The most important part of Majora's Mask's gameplay, for me, is realizing how the time system actually works and bending it to your will. Every time you collect a permanent upgrade (an item, ability, song, etc), it's essentially a checkpoint that lets you know that even if you somehow take too long, you can safely rewind time now and lose 0 progress. It's also why the dungeons love to use that central room mechanic and the key items are arrows; if you think it'll take you too long to beat the rest of the dungeon then you can reset time right after getting the item, warp right back to the dungeon entrance, and then be in that central room where you unlock the second half with the arrow with a full three days ahead of you.

Of course, knowing that the game lets you triple the time limit from practically the very start helps.
Yup, this, once you realize the power you have, all the tediousness and fear disappears. There is this transition where you go from afraid of the time limit to being master of it, and it's awesome.
 

Space Lion

Banned
May 24, 2019
1,015
One of the reasons people love it is how it sticks with you so long afterwards. I'd say reassess after some time. Some of its frustrations are easier to get around on a second play through.

Sometimes it's the opposite. I knew a lot of everything thrown around here: use some of double time, use song of time as a checkpoint;etc. I thought it was one of the best games I had ever played. But with time, despite knowing how it's meant to played, I thought of the game a lot less.
 

Crushed

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,737
I seriously do not remember you ever having to do this. You're talking about the Goron race, right?
Yeah, but considering it's for an entirely optional upgrade (the Gilded Sword) it's not that big of a deal.

Similarly, you can almost entirely skip the Gerudo stealth section with the Stone Mask.
 

daybreak

Member
Feb 28, 2018
2,419
In my mind it's the third best 3D Zelda game, after BotW and Wind Waker (my order of preference for those two is still up in the air).
 

Space Lion

Banned
May 24, 2019
1,015
I seriously do not remember you ever having to do this. You're talking about the Goron race, right?

Yes. You have to unlock the rocks with the dumb bomb.

If you fail the race, you don't have the option to replay it.

You have to go back in time, beat the boss, get the dumb Goron bomb again to unlock the race, then redo it.

Bad game design all slathered all over MM and that's just one example.
 
Nov 23, 2017
4,302
Huh, I thought the dungeon design was extremely strong, as three of the dungeons opt for a global type design where knowing the whole is an important aspect of solving the dungeon.
This. Majoras goes for quality over quantity on dungeons for sure, but they're all excellent and are the exact type of design that people love to say is the best Zelda design (the central concept style)
 
Nov 23, 2017
4,302
Yes. You have to unlock the rocks with the dumb bomb.

If you fail the race, you don't have the option to replay it.

You have to go back in time, beat the boss, get the dumb Goron bomb again to unlock the race, then redo it.

Bad game design all slathered all over MM and that's just one example.
It's not bad design. It's design working as intended in the lore story and general concept. Those events didn't happen when you fail and had to rewind. why wouldn't you have to do it again?
 

NuclearCake

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,867
I don't like this game at all. It's a great concept bogged down by horrible execution. The games short development time and the N64 limitations are partially to blame but the end result for me still kind of sucks. I didn't like three out of the four total dungeons. The mask switching quickly became tiresome and the three day cycle time limit never was utilized to its fullest potential. The puzzles are once again really simple and don't really require any logical thinking from the player to solve and the game barely has any real exploration. The sidequest are slightly above your average Zelda game in terms of quality but it's only slightly and it doesn't make up for the games other shortcomings.
The 3DS remake made whole new problems so it wasn't a great remake either.

I don't really think any 3D Zelda game deserves much praise besides BOTW, which was the first time Zelda was truly great in 3D and it was rightfully recognized as such, but Majora's Mask would be the worst one if it weren't for Skyward Sword and even Skyward Sword has some elements that easily surpass Majora.

You should play Wind Waker next because A Link Between Worlds is easily above most other Zelda games, that playing the other 3D Zelda games after it would be torturous.
 

Poltergust

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,884
Orlando, FL
Yes. You have to unlock the rocks with the dumb bomb.

If you fail the race, you don't have the option to replay it.

You have to go back in time, beat the boss, get the dumb Goron bomb again to unlock the race, then redo it.

Bad game design all slathered all over MM and that's just one example.
???

I'm almost positive you can replay that race. Like, >99%.

There are lots of other events that you can't redo, but that is almost certainly not one of them.
 

Space Lion

Banned
May 24, 2019
1,015
Yeah, but considering it's for an entirely optional upgrade (the Gilded Sword) it's not that big of a deal.

Similarly, you can almost entirely skip the Gerudo stealth section with the Stone Mask.

In MM 3D they changed getting the Stone Mask so guess what? You have to look it up. Oop.

And I'm not the type of player to consider the Gilden Sword optional.

This. Majoras goes for quality over quantity on dungeons for sure, but they're all excellent and are the exact type of design that people love to say is the best Zelda design (the central concept style)

I played Master Quest 3D before Majora's Maks 3D and I don't think there's anything in MM as good as Shadow Temple, Forest Temple, Fire Temple, Spirit Temple besides Stone Tower.
 

Hucast

alt account
Banned
Mar 25, 2019
3,598
Love majora's mask but you are right on the money OP. I like what you are doing with these threads. Nicely written bro.
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,837
Fair enough, OP. The game is a bit of an acquired taste. Although I personally disagree on the dungeon design being weak. Dungeons like Stone Tower and Snowhead Temple are damn good, albeit perhaps not as fun as dungeons in other 3D Zeldas

Yes. You have to unlock the rocks with the dumb bomb.

If you fail the race, you don't have the option to replay it.

You have to go back in time, beat the boss, get the dumb Goron bomb again to unlock the race, then redo it.

Bad game design all slathered all over MM and that's just one example.
No, I'm pretty sure you get to try again. I've beaten the game quite a few times and don't recall ever needing to rewind time and beat the boss again for another shot
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
Um excuse me, it's called Great Bay for a reason and I will bear no comments besmirching the grandeur of my underwater, tubular brethren inhabiting it
--
48897.jpg
 

Deleted member 203

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,899
I agree with OP. I don't love MM, it's pretty vastly inferior to OoT imo. It has its strengths, but as an overall package it doesn't hang together as well. Also I prefer the more understated tragedy of OoT to the more heavy-handed approach MM takes.
 

Poltergust

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,884
Orlando, FL
No, I'm pretty sure you get to try again. I've beaten the game quite a few times and don't recall ever needing to rewind time and beat the boss again for another shot
Yeah, the only reason to rewind time is if you don't get the prize for winning by the end of the 2nd day (because you need to leave your sword with the smiths overnight twice in a row, with the 2nd time needing that prize).
 

Space Lion

Banned
May 24, 2019
1,015
???

I'm almost positive you can replay that race. Like, >99%.

There are lots of other events that you can't redo, but that is almost certainly not one of them.

I don't remember. I do remember hating it.

It's not bad design. It's design working as intended in the lore story and general concept. Those events didn't happen when you fail and had to rewind. why wouldn't you have to do it again?

Don't you also have to redo the the boss fight again just so you can take the sword down to the forge because they can't operate during the blizzard and the sword has to be started on Day One?

MM is full of tedious things like that.
 

ibyea

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,164
Yes. You have to unlock the rocks with the dumb bomb.

If you fail the race, you don't have the option to replay it.

You have to go back in time, beat the boss, get the dumb Goron bomb again to unlock the race, then redo it.

Bad game design all slathered all over MM and that's just one example.
I am pretty sure you can replay the races again. Because I know I lost a million times and didn't have to turn back time.
 

Poltergust

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,884
Orlando, FL
I don't remember. I do remember hating it.



Don't you also have to redo the the boss fight again just so you can take the sword down to the forge because they can't operate during the blizzard and the sword has to be started on Day One?

MM is full of tedious things like that.
It has to be started on day 1, but I think all you need is the Fire Arrow...?
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,837
Yeah, the only reason to rewind time is if you don't get the prize for winning by the end of the 2nd day (because you need to leave your sword with the smiths overnight twice in a row, with the 2nd time needing that prize).
Ahh...that must be it. Yeah, I found that kinda crappy as it placed time limitations on you
 

Arynio

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,235
*Reads the thread title*
source.gif


Yeah the dungeon design is fairly weak and the time mechanic can be frustrating. I love the atmosphere of the game though and it's definitely my favorite

What? I was surprised when OP mentioned it. To me, MM's dungeons are among the best of the series.
 

Space Lion

Banned
May 24, 2019
1,015
Other niggles include taking away bombs, rupees, arrows upon reset. Sure, you can just go in Goron form, go to Termina Field, and just roll around but that's not available until you get Goron mask and even when you do get Goron mask it doesn't change that you still gotta do it. It's like in Zelda II when started at the damn princess when you load a save. Just tedious lollygagging that extends game time unnecessarily.

Stuff like that I used to not care about. I didn't bat an eye. Now I fucking hate it. The gaming equivalent of taking cough syrup. Straight up dog shit.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 58846

User requested account closure
Banned
Jul 28, 2019
5,086
I think I just did something very stupid, but this is why I should not be trusted with money

I told you forever ago to play Link's Awakening.

I don't really like MM either
But now I am on this odyssey :(

I think, ideally, you will want to play the 3D Zeldas in release order, but I think you can pepper in the 2D ones whenever you feel like. There aren't gonna be any amazing QOL features in ALBW that you'll miss going back to Wind Waker or Twilight Princess.

Also don't ignore The Oracle of Ages/Seasons and Minish Cap though...
I had not even heard of those ones until you mentioned them lol
 

Okabe

Is Sometimes A Good Bean
Member
Aug 24, 2018
20,077
I will forever think Lttp means link to the past .
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,573
Majora's Mask is really great in giving you an existential crisis. Quests finishing in the final day in particular. One thing I like to do sometimes is finding the best spot in Clock Town to watch the moon crash with the haunting music in the background begging you to rewind time. It was made for depressing people like me.

I played Master Quest 3D before Majora's Maks 3D and I don't think there's anything in MM as good as Shadow Temple, Forest Temple, Fire Temple, Spirit Temple besides Stone Tower.
ERA generally underrates OoT's dungeons. You can spot them when they say TP has the best dungeons.
 

Poltergust

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,884
Orlando, FL
Other niggles include taking away bombs, rupees, arrows upon reset. Sure, you can just go in Goron form, go to Termina Field, and just roll around but that's not available until you get Goron mask and even when you do get Goron mask it doesn't change that you still gotta do it. It's like Zelda II started at the damn princess when you save. Just tedious lollygagging that extends game time unnecessarily.

Stuff like that I used to not care about. I didn't bat an eye. Now I fucking hate it. The gaming equivalent of taking cough syrup. Straight up dog shit.
You use the Bomb Mask if you're low on bombs, the bank to replenish your Rupee count, and by the time you need to use arrows you're likely to find some along the way. I never had an issue with restocking things between cycles.
 

SlumberingGiant

alt account
Banned
Jul 2, 2019
1,389
Other niggles include taking away bombs, rupees, arrows upon reset. Sure, you can just go in Goron form, go to Termina Field, and just roll around but that's not available until you get Goron mask and even when you do get Goron mask it doesn't change that you still gotta do it. It's like Zelda II started at the damn princess when you save. Just tedious lollygagging that extends game time unnecessarily.

Stuff like that I used to not care about. I didn't bat an eye. Now I fucking hate it. The gaming equivalent of taking cough syrup. Straight up dog shit.
I love it. It commits to the time travel aspect totally. Part of the games appeal
 

SkywardBeam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
412
ERA generally underrates OoT's dungeons. You can spot them when they say TP has the best dungeons.
TP doesn't have the best anything. That's how utterly bland and forgettable that game is. (I still enjoy it though and it's still better than 90 percent of the Zelda-like action-adventures out there.)