VG247: Valkyria Chronicles 4’s sexual harassment problem is unacceptable in 2018 (READ OP)
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I think the article makes the wrong case here, but there's a case to be made nonetheless.
The problem is not so much that this is normalizing, condoning, or in some way reflecting an attitude that this is okay. The problem is that the scene and the way it's presented is played for laughs.
Anime often has a kind of sexual equivalent to slapstick. In slapstick someone get physically injured and we all laugh at it. We know hitting someone with a pipe wrench is wrong and would be horrified to see it happen in real life, but we laugh when the Three Stooges do it. In anime they do the same thing with sexual violence, and the audience is meant to find it funny.
And while slapstick isn't meant to promote violence, it works because most people aren't the victims of that sort of violence. But most women DO have to deal with harassment or sexual aggression, which makes it a poor choice for a punchline.
So I'd put it in the category of "insensitive." Which does not necessarily make it sexist or misogynistic, but it seems oblivious to the reality faced by women and how this scene might play to someone who has actually had their ass grabbed by creepy men in the workplace.
The problem is not so much that this is normalizing, condoning, or in some way reflecting an attitude that this is okay. The problem is that the scene and the way it's presented is played for laughs.
Anime often has a kind of sexual equivalent to slapstick. In slapstick someone get physically injured and we all laugh at it. We know hitting someone with a pipe wrench is wrong and would be horrified to see it happen in real life, but we laugh when the Three Stooges do it. In anime they do the same thing with sexual violence, and the audience is meant to find it funny.
And while slapstick isn't meant to promote violence, it works because most people aren't the victims of that sort of violence. But most women DO have to deal with harassment or sexual aggression, which makes it a poor choice for a punchline.
So I'd put it in the category of "insensitive." Which does not necessarily make it sexist or misogynistic, but it seems oblivious to the reality faced by women and how this scene might play to someone who has actually had their ass grabbed by creepy men in the workplace.
I was watching a bit of Gundam 0083 yesterday. The first and third episode are both set on a military base and have male soldiers getting overly personal with the women on base. In the first episode it's one of the main heroes; he insistently tries to ask out a new engineer, and another one of the female engineers taps him on the shoulder and tells it to give it up. He doesn't get handsy. In the third episode there's someone who does grope women. We don't actually see it on screen, we hear it from one woman warning another, and it's part of the character being set up as an asshole. He ends up getting into a fight with the hero and they're both put in solitary detention by the end of the episode.
Maybe worse happens in a later episode, but it seems like Gundam here was going for the same sort of thing as this Valkyria Chronicles 4 thing, while making it a point not to actually approve of this behaviour. Didn't see any dismissal of the engineers' values either. That was made in 1991, so if anime can have at least that level of tact back then, I don't think that being anime or a Japanese game is a n excuse now.
Maybe worse happens in a later episode, but it seems like Gundam here was going for the same sort of thing as this Valkyria Chronicles 4 thing, while making it a point not to actually approve of this behaviour. Didn't see any dismissal of the engineers' values either. That was made in 1991, so if anime can have at least that level of tact back then, I don't think that being anime or a Japanese game is a n excuse now.
"Bad thing" has degrees. You can end a scene with a "ring the door bell" prank as a bad thing. This is some full on sexual harassment, outright made physical. Framing matters, and rather than framing this as anything other than reprehensible, it's a "silly character quirk"
That is not how you direct a scene to portray an assault as a real negative, but a pestering annoyance.
I don't know why we're discussing Persona here, but I can confirm that Yosuke does way worse shit than Yusuke and Ryuji combined.
Oh please, let's stop with the bullshit of putting everything on otaku when the problem is much bigger than this and it's very ingrainted with japanese culture even before anime and manga existed (yes, unfortunately I have to refer to otaku as this even when the term serves to many more interests). Japan has a problem with it's treatment of women way before it, the very vision that women should be pure, on how they should act, that women should give children to men and many other problems. Japanese entertainment media have this problem because of Japan itself, not because of otaku.
Lastly, let's not forget that the ~otaku culture~ also happens on drama, movies and TV talk shows of Japan not only before this even existed but right now. There's a reason as to why more progressist japanese don't like those parts.
Same. That's the worst part of it. They expect you to laugh but instead it's creepy and cringey. It's a shame because I really liked the first game despite its ranking system.
"Because you ladies made a bad meal, you now have to wear these bathing suits! You owe us!"
Should have fucking left Yosuke inside the TV, quite honestly...
No it's not. None of the men soldiers are concerned for her, they just want to see a fight and think it's funny that a women punched a guy. It's a toxic depiction of sexual harassment that only serves to sexualize the victim rather than making any actual worthwhile statements.
Yes, but people will put the blame on otaku even though many of those things happens because of japanese culture even before the term was created to designate geek people on different subjects.
Eh...I mean, the stuff that Yosuke demands is gross, but it feels like he demands it from a place of innocence and artistic devotion...except for the weird creepy undercurrent that happens later where he may have been on the same page as Ryuji, which makes him WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY worse than Ryuji...but even that's one of those weird, "the protagonist turns at the end of the movie with a creepy grin and glowing eyes showing he as the monster the whole tiiiiiiime" type thing, which is...something.
That's a big question.
Japan has a tendency to do this is games. Along with the sexualization of young girls. I hate it, in a lot of cases I don't play Japanese RPGs when I have people around just because of this. I don't really care what their culture says, it is not justifiable. Total sexualisation of women, and female children is just not acceptable. I really hope this kind of stuff changes over there. when it comes to the sexualisation of young girls, they seem to just edit it out for the rest of the world or tweak the age in the information page on each character, but it doesn't address the underlying issue of disrespect.
The clips posted in this thread are embarrassing and the game doesn't at all look like it handles this stuff well. It's juvenile, outdated, horrible sexualisation done in the worst way. However, I feel like having read the article in the OP before seeing the clips from the game it is slightly misleading, particularly in the part where the woman gets her arse grabbed by the man I feel like it doesn't quite line up with what the article described. The fact that after the woman punches the man everybody seemingly reacts gleefully to that isn't mentioned. It doesn't justify or defend the game's decisions but it's more distasteful "boys will be boys" humour than it is a man doing what they want without consequence. It doesn't portray the behaviour as acceptable as much as it does like it's such a minor offence it's not important. I feel like it would be a better critique if the article focused on why this is wrong.
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Literally never heard the term otaku before, that was an interesting read. Does otaku compound the problem, then? Since it seemingly isn't improving things?
User Banned (1 Month): Downplaying concerns over sexism; Junior account.
if it was a movie or tv series nobody would say a thing , but from anime o everything like that people espect it to give the good exemple like a fairytail or child cartoon
I really don't know why Japanese developers continue to put in unnecessary nonsense like this. It adds nothing to the story or characters and, arguably detracts from it.
Well, I know why. But it's still ridiculous. Read the room, please.
Well, I know why. But it's still ridiculous. Read the room, please.
It completely turned me off from the demo, and that's a shame because it was my first game from this series and I really liked the gameplay. The fact that so few reviewers mentioned this shows that we still have a long way to go for equality.
I'll never buy this game.
I'll never buy this game.
They're reading the room they're in, not the room they're sending copies to across the ocean. This ABSOLUTELY flies in Japan. In Japan, it's a feature. There are entire shows devoted to this type of humor every single season during prime time.
I can barely remember the first game, but I'm trying to think if the first game had anything like this in it. I remember playing it and not seeing anything like this. To the best of my memory the first had a strong female leading character that was respected and worked hard to get where she was. It made the story really great.
Are you meaning to say Yusuke? While the guy isn't explicitly coming from a pervert trope, the dude never really backs off from the nude modeling thing with Ann, and then he full on scolds two girls for not being "proper Japanese women" or some shit before the fireworks festival. Some real fedora-ass bullshit.
I mostly like Ryuji, but holy shit do the guys on your crew in 5 act like total assholes.
See I get that, and know it all too well. However, they're going to come under fire more and more as they look to the west for more sales and further reach.
Oh yeah I remember that now. they think it didn't stick with me as much because it wasn't one of their "Loli" sexualizations. all of the sexual relations in anime games bother me, but the ones with young girls really stick out to me and make me feel sick.
Lastly, I think we talk too much about Japan because it's a big part of entertainment for the west with games, cartoon and comics but let's not act like this same thing don't happen in China, South Korea and Asia in general. The situation on the continent isn't that progressist at all on any of those matters. Not like here in the west is much better since in all of the countries there's similar problems but in Asia is much worse and there's nothing showing that this will be changing anytime soon.
A bit but many products not targeting those people also have the same pattern. Products who target children and teenagers in manga (later in anime) have these patterns. Manga focusing on harem and with many teenage and adult women with a protagonist existed for those same target for ages like Ranma, To Love Ru, Yuna and others (to be fair, some parents complained about it a few times), along the very humor on manga not focusing on this aspect. Without count manga with those type of designs like My Hero Academia, Black Clover, One Piece and many others which are very popular.
Going out of the anime and manga, the same happens on Light Novels. We can see the same pattern a bit on dramas and japanese movies. Same way we can see that on japanese TV shows in prime time. And you ask why that happens? Because that's seeing as normal for most of the people on the country. Which is why some more progressist japanese have so difficult in trying to change many of the things that exist on japan and are accepted for decades.
A bit but many products not targeting those people also have the same pattern. Products who target children and teenagers in manga (later in anime) have these patterns. Manga focusing on harem and with many teenage and adult women with a protagonist existed for those same target for ages like Ranma, To Love Ru, Yuna and others (to be fair, some parents complained about it a few times), along the very humor on manga not focusing on this aspect. Without count manga with those type of designs like My Hero Academia, Black Clover, One Piece and many others which are very popular.
Going out of the anime and manga, the same happens on Light Novels. We can see the same pattern a bit on dramas and japanese movies. Same way we can see that on japanese TV shows in prime time. And you ask why that happens? Because that's seeing as normal for most of the people on the country. Which is why some more progressist japanese have so difficult in trying to change many of the things that exist on japan and are accepted for decades.
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That's pretty damn tame. I mean, is a bit eyerolling, but it can't be compared to this or the bath scene in 4.
Edit: It was on the base game? I don't remember the scene.
The fuck? What movie plays up sexual assault like a silly joke?
The first game had a lot of anime tropes, although not this one in particular (the groping). Well, at least not that I can recall.
Having said this, keep in mind the article is focused on the topic of sexualization and harassment that is the center of the writer's criticism. There are some other blanket statements with open-ended implications that I'd like to see confirmed (or dismissed) for myself, but almost nothing concrete and specific about how the women were treated as individual characters in other respects, outside of the situations where the criticism applies (still unsure about how many of them there are).
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I loved VC1 and a friend even purchased VC4 for me because they said it looked like a return to form.
This is...disappointing. To say the absolute least. I was concerned when I played the switch demo and Kai's introduction was an ass-shot and an outfit that accentuates it. Sad to see it apparently gets worse.
This is...disappointing. To say the absolute least. I was concerned when I played the switch demo and Kai's introduction was an ass-shot and an outfit that accentuates it. Sad to see it apparently gets worse.
To see that they've kept stuff like this from the portable renditions of the series makes me depressed, but i'll save my final opinion for once I've beaten the game.
I went into Persona 5 expecting it to be my favorite game of all time and it's problems with sexuality and representation and sexism dragged it down for me.
I will approach this game the same way. It's a sequel to one of my favorite games of all time, but if it does dumb shit for no reason other than fanservice, I won't think of it as highly as I could have.
I just hate seeing people paint their opinions with massive, all-encompassing strokes and generalizing all the nuance out of entire genres, mediums, and even countries.
I went into Persona 5 expecting it to be my favorite game of all time and it's problems with sexuality and representation and sexism dragged it down for me.
I will approach this game the same way. It's a sequel to one of my favorite games of all time, but if it does dumb shit for no reason other than fanservice, I won't think of it as highly as I could have.
I just hate seeing people paint their opinions with massive, all-encompassing strokes and generalizing all the nuance out of entire genres, mediums, and even countries.
You have the Y*sukes mixed up. Yusuke is the P5 artist, Yosuke is the P4 pervert.
OT: I loved VC1, but I was already reluctant as it was to pick up 4 with the direction 2 and 3 went with the story. It unfortunately looks like they doubled down on that story direction.
Damn, and the first game was so good too. Why was this necessary?
I thought this was going to be some shitty dialogue from one character in a scene or some isolated incident that, but damn.
Worst part is, it's not even like it fits the tone/subject matter of the game. It just flippantly happens as a joke.
This really sucks. I liked VC1's story a lot. Really wanted to franchise to come back after that weird action game spin off happened.
These are games where the story and characters are really what sells it.
Guess I'm out.
Wasn't this supposed to be a somewhat serious game about how war sucked?
They really shot themselves in the foot here...and then shot the other foot when they noticed it was still there.
Does anyone know if it at least ends with the female characters overcoming the large amounts of adversity being thrown their way?
This. "This guy just really loves the ladies" isn't funny, yet this keeps getting pushed on us.
I thought this was going to be some shitty dialogue from one character in a scene or some isolated incident that, but damn.
Worst part is, it's not even like it fits the tone/subject matter of the game. It just flippantly happens as a joke.
This really sucks. I liked VC1's story a lot. Really wanted to franchise to come back after that weird action game spin off happened.
These are games where the story and characters are really what sells it.
Guess I'm out.
Wasn't this supposed to be a somewhat serious game about how war sucked?
They really shot themselves in the foot here...and then shot the other foot when they noticed it was still there.
Does anyone know if it at least ends with the female characters overcoming the large amounts of adversity being thrown their way?
This. "This guy just really loves the ladies" isn't funny, yet this keeps getting pushed on us.
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I'm pretty torn because I really want to play the game, the game play in the first one is so good and if this is return to form I really want to play it. But at the same time it's just another game that I cannot play in front of other people under any circumstance and one that I will constantly subject me to ridiculous sexual overtones for girls. Even when I'm alone bath scenes and weird shit like that are uncomfortable.
Comparing anything in VC1 to the stuff in 4 is disingenuous, it's very tame in comparison.
Especially in regards to comparing Raz to Rosie, Rosie was well written and her arc well executed. She had significant reasons for why she was that way and whilst it didn't justify her views, that combined with not committing an egregious action gives her the space to grow into the character she becomes, it happens fairly sensibly and naturally.
Raz however is poorly written and the arc just seems like it's trying to hard to be this games Rosie without actually getting it.
Frankly the writing in general in 4 has been poor and feels a bit too schlocky anime even compared to a game with a cute pig creature.
Should have known after VC2 and 3 not to trust the story direction in this series.
Especially in regards to comparing Raz to Rosie, Rosie was well written and her arc well executed. She had significant reasons for why she was that way and whilst it didn't justify her views, that combined with not committing an egregious action gives her the space to grow into the character she becomes, it happens fairly sensibly and naturally.
Raz however is poorly written and the arc just seems like it's trying to hard to be this games Rosie without actually getting it.
Frankly the writing in general in 4 has been poor and feels a bit too schlocky anime even compared to a game with a cute pig creature.
Should have known after VC2 and 3 not to trust the story direction in this series.
Who was the story writer for this game? If it was just one story writer, and I'm going to be honest with you I don't really understand how stories are developed for games. But I feel like if it was one person who wrote the story we should tweet at him and let him know that that shit bothers us. Maybe it won't change anything, but there will definitely not be a change unless someone speaks up. A simple article isn't enough.
I mean, you can still play and buy the game and be very vocal about the elements you don't like about it. If anything, you'll be more educated on the specifics of the context and can accurately voice why you find this stuff so decerning.
Vote with your wallet is fine, but supporting a project and pointing with a very large and loud market what you find troubling about it is just as valid.
Fuck you, VC4. Also fuck people who defend, downplay and excuse this.
I was considering buying this until the blatant sexism was made public. Get the fuck out with your no-true-Scotsman and gatekeeping. It's Xenoblade 2 all over again, "you weren't going to buy the game anyway", even though I own the first two and the original one is among my favorite games of all time. I was super excited for XB2 until the sexualization grossed the fuck out of me.
Anyone poisoning the well with these preemptive "you weren't going to buy so you're not fit to criticise" can frankly go to hell, it's one milimeter away from "you're a woman so you're not a true gamer and your opinions don't count", and I hope anyone pulling that shit gets instabanned.
I was considering buying this until the blatant sexism was made public. Get the fuck out with your no-true-Scotsman and gatekeeping. It's Xenoblade 2 all over again, "you weren't going to buy the game anyway", even though I own the first two and the original one is among my favorite games of all time. I was super excited for XB2 until the sexualization grossed the fuck out of me.
Anyone poisoning the well with these preemptive "you weren't going to buy so you're not fit to criticise" can frankly go to hell, it's one milimeter away from "you're a woman so you're not a true gamer and your opinions don't count", and I hope anyone pulling that shit gets instabanned.
I showed this particular scene to my brothers girlfriend Aiko and a friend of her who both are native Japanese.
Her friend doesn't speak English but my brother translated her for me and said she thought the scene reminded her of Muten Roshi. She thought it was a little bit funny but she still prefers Muten Roshi. Aiko thought the men was a total creep but it didn't bother her. She named a couple of J-drama I have never heard of that contain main characters that are much worse.
Since Japan probably isn't going to change any time soon maybe removing content like this in western versions of games wouldn't be a bad idea in the future.
Oof, this is not a good look...
That just opens up a whole new can of worms. Censor or remove the scenes and you'll have every neckbearded weeaboo from here to Timbuktu decrying "muh censorship."
Unfortunately, those neckbearded weeaboos probably account for a not insignificant portion of this games sales; so at the end of the day guess which base Sega is gonna cater to.
That just opens up a whole new can of worms. Censor or remove the scenes and you'll have every neckbearded weeaboo from here to Timbuktu decrying "muh censorship."
Unfortunately, those neckbearded weeaboos probably account for a not insignificant portion of this games sales; so at the end of the day guess which base Sega is gonna cater to.