Special? Oh come on, this generation we have seen far and away better indie games. Dead Cells/Hallow Knight/Cup Head. Indies have grown stronger this generation than last and the proof is the excellent games we have now.
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Vlambeer co-founder Rami Ismail says "sucks to be you" and "you got out businessed" to Valve over EGS exclusives
- Thread starter ditusjack
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Special? Oh come on, this generation we have seen far and away better indie games. Dead Cells/Hallow Knight/Cup Head. Indies have grown stronger this generation than last and the proof is the excellent games we have now.
Yikes, that's the opposite of what I'm saying.
I can't believe Steam users let Valve charge them for online after GOG went bankrupt. It's a good thing for me that console moneyhatting has protected me from these anti-consumer excesses.
Judging by some of the responses in here, not sure it is anymore.
What are you talking about lol
Like, I get what you're going for, it's just very silly. The point is that people seem a lot more bothered by a mild inconvenience than they do about having to buy other consoles. As it is, a storefront that can compete with Steam is what will help prevent stagnation. Because Valve has no excuse not to have a system that can't even filter out "Kill the Faggots."
That's pretty damn vague and doesn't really say anything which would lead to a better service for consumers not to mention that Valve has been steadily building up Steam over the years (puns) through services like workshop, the controller api, and steam proton which has made a big impact on how people approach development in the pc space.
Epic however seems content with undercutting themselves at the cost of improving the end experience while providing barebones support for developers outside of tossing money around.
Exclusives did not exist on PC and now suddenly they do, and on a shitty platform that is essentially featureless. So the reaction is a matter of principle, we don't want this dumb console war exclusivity bullshit shoved in our faces, while epic steals our info everytime we boot their launcher.
My point is that "But consoles do it and nobody complains!" is a ludicrous argument. The trainwreck that is the modern console market, where consumers just get fucked worse every generation, is exactly why PC gamers are looking at Epic moneyhatting and getting nervous.
Moneyhatted "competition" doesn't prevent stagnation. A company isn't going to turn down $5 million from Epic because Valve got rid of "Kill Faggots" (which they should have, that's not really excusable). Valve is also not going to more actively make sure games called "Kill Faggots" stay off of Steam because Epic moneyhatted Obsidian. The two are completely unrelated. The only thing that competes with moneyhatting is more moneyhatting.
or even more importantly, marketing. lots of indies seem to think people will magically just find their way to their game without any serious effort to reach out to consumers.
amazon didn't grab games from gamestop weeks or months before release and made them amazon exclusive.
User warned: antagonizing another member
Choose a better example next time or better yet educate yourself before jumping into a conversation and looking like trump. Just friendly advice I doubt you'll take.
If there is a serious risk for Valve that people will migrate away from Steam, then it will have to do more than just moneyhat to pull people away from that. After all, Epic having exclusive titles is just one reason a person may want to try something besides Steam.
It's just another launcher to download. You'll play the same exact game. Why is it a big deal?
First of all, that's fucking hilarious, you sound like a very, very stable genius
Secondly, Amazon for games was an inferior service compared to the other game shops here - Game and Shopto would routinely ship games early, shopto would have competitive/if not cheaper pricing.
I apologise to you and Amazong and Steam.
1. Issues with transphobia directly from the company
2. Lack of curation leading to broken games and offensive games
3. A vow to allow any game that isn't illegal or trolling
Those are perfectly valid reasons to avoid Valve.
Rami is entirely correct and the dependency of the entire PC market on one store front is very bad for many, many developers (see: The indie devs Rami spoke of).
My bad, I thought you meant reasons to use the Epic Games Store, not to avoid Valve. Sorry for misreading!
It's no problem. I don't even use EGS, I just think EGS is good in terms of giving people opportunities if they want to avoid Valve.
Era is console war centric, and now console war is no longer console exclusive.
"Competition" is well and good, but the EGS can't compete on its own merits because Epic launched a half-assed product, so now they're handing out moneyhats instead of putting those resources to use in improving their Store. That's the main issue I have with the situation. My game library is divided between Steam, Battle.net, and a couple of other digital storefronts and I'm generally okay with that.
That really isn't the issue, anybody can use EGS (or any other storefront for that matter) exclusively if they want, Epic is trying to take away the choice.
If you mean that Epic is offering developers an opportunity to avoid Valve for the reasons you've listed and their large profit margin then sure.
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"Why don't you want to use worse software instead of better software?"
A puzzle.
It's not worse. How it's organized alone is better than the mess that is Steam store.
https://www.polygon.com/2016/5/24/11761242/valve-former-employee-lawsuit-transgender-discrimination
Not really an either-or though. You can have both.
it's quite amazing how people keep doing this in every single epic thread
I think it's just a big disconnect between PC and console player attitudes. Consoles exclusivity has always been about the price barrier, not about the openness.
Stuff Steam has that other competitors don't (at least, not all of them at once):
Universal refunds, no questions asked. Origin only offers refunds on EA games, and only within 24 hours of launching the game. GOG only offers refunds for technical issues (which doesn't include things like your PC not being able to run it well, so you're SOL if you're just getting shitty performance) and requires you to do extensive troubleshooting with their tech support before they'll cough up the money.
- Much more expansive library because of no arbitrary rejection. If you search a game you can probably find it.
- Built-in mod support. The GOG version of games like Clustertruck often lack level editors and mods because of no equivalent to the Steam Workshop.
- Steam Controller support (you have to add Origin games to Steam to use the controller, which is an incredibly convoluted process because EA doesn't want you running games on Steam)
- Linux and Mac support
- Early Access
- Updates download in the background
- Vastly superior community features
- Big Picture Mode
- Family Sharing
Epic doesn't even have reviews lmao. Have they added a search function yet?
Q: I don't care about that stuff so it doesn't count!
A: congrats
I don't really see how EGS will help indies. There will be lots of Opus Magnum/GOG situations. Even EGS has a limited space for recommendations and they will be filling it with moneyhatted and their own games. Can't see something like a NEO Scavenger or, in case of Vlambeer, Super Crate Box taking off on EGS or being sold at all.
They just launched and what's more important right now is games and that's the focus.
Console players are also okay with paying a monthly fee to play online so it's pretty easy to see why this wouldn't phase them.
What is this
Be real: were you banking on me not replying? Because you've totally skated backwards from "Epic is better" to "who cares about the store."
He's right in terms of Valve's rhetoric.
Valve can't say some things are just data driven, objective decisions that they make when they perceive advantage in it for them and then use moral arguments about fairness when someone else does something to disadvantage them. It's having your cake and eating it too.
If Valve want to come at it from the perspective of buying exclusives is bad because it's not producing good outcomes for the consumer that would be a much better argument.
Valve can't say some things are just data driven, objective decisions that they make when they perceive advantage in it for them and then use moral arguments about fairness when someone else does something to disadvantage them. It's having your cake and eating it too.
If Valve want to come at it from the perspective of buying exclusives is bad because it's not producing good outcomes for the consumer that would be a much better argument.
For me the bloody store front UI and snappy-ness is one, since Steam, for some reason, has always been a buggy mess for me where I sometime need to go some hops to just start it.
Two functions for me that I miss:
- Community (which they have said they wont do I guess)
- Reviews (which is OPt in IIRC, which I would like them to make mandatory)
I'm sure Vlambeer games will be featured just fine. They've got an in. The question is, what about the next Vlambeer, the next generation of developers, new and unproven games? At some point, many of these studios now on EGS did not have any realistic and affordable publishing avenues until Steam went the way of self-publishing. Would To The Moon have gotten on EGS if released today, for example? Would Tick Tock Isle, Reveal The Deep? It's easier to dump on self-publishing and praise curation when you're on people's radar already. The idea that EGS won't feature "crappy games" is worrisome and really puts a(nother) big asterisk on the idea of it being the store for developers.
Not like I don't agree with you but Hades currently in Early Access and yes they added a search function few weeks ago. Baby steps I guess.
So what happens in a year or two when they don't have comparable features and the exclusive games are not exclusive? There's no reason to use the epic store now and there will be no reason to in a year especially once these moneyhatted games deals are done. I bet we will see Epic complaining how nobody uses their store for anything other than fortnite microtransactions.
by offering a worst experience?
And Rami is correct as usual, I'm glad that we have people like him in the industry that don't just say what Gamers want to hear. And he does this continuously, from his points on inclusitivity to this here. Fight on, Rami. Your design talks were great, even if your games aren't my cup of tea :(
It's wild that it is ~anti-consumer~ to not be 100% pro Steam, when it's not epic that's anti-consumer-like-me. The one that is is...Steam, on a very consistent basis. Well, and Gog, but those I cut out, too.
That said, use itch over Epic if you can.
"Why do you want to support people that promote gaybashing dictators, rape lovers and homophobes?"
A puzzle.
The miniscule improvements a launcher has mean little for me, when one platform has hate groups gaming the system to punish devs of games with queer/poc content, when the platform pushes rape sims, gaybashing sims, or outright propaganda games for southamerican (and, of course, gaybashing) dictators.
And when rape sims have an easier time being featured on steam than queer ones. Kinda weird, that.
Easy to fix, mind. Steam could kick user Reviews out, as they started consider doing, and they could maybe apply the standards they apply to queer games also to nazi and rape games. This is really asking for the absolute minimum standards of basic decency, it's not exactly *much*.
Note I didn't ask to apply common sense moderation to the userbase (which would get half the userbase banned from the forums for hate speech) or anything *drastic* like, I don't know, removing reviews filled with hate speech or blatant lies.
Surely, "Okay, maybe let's not have the rape game and the game where Bolsonero kills gays and minorities" aren't impossibly high standards to ask for ;) They're very tiny steps.
Really: If your platform has "we only remove games that don't work or are trolling", isn't it very telling that a rape glorification game is somehow not considered "trolling" towards women immediately?
It's wild that it is ~anti-consumer~ to not be 100% pro Steam, when it's not epic that's anti-consumer-like-me. The one that is is...Steam, on a very consistent basis. Well, and Gog, but those I cut out, too.
That said, use itch over Epic if you can.
"Why do you want to support people that promote gaybashing dictators, rape lovers and homophobes?"
A puzzle.
The miniscule improvements a launcher has mean little for me, when one platform has hate groups gaming the system to punish devs of games with queer/poc content, when the platform pushes rape sims, gaybashing sims, or outright propaganda games for southamerican (and, of course, gaybashing) dictators.
And when rape sims have an easier time being featured on steam than queer ones. Kinda weird, that.
Easy to fix, mind. Steam could kick user Reviews out, as they started consider doing, and they could maybe apply the standards they apply to queer games also to nazi and rape games. This is really asking for the absolute minimum standards of basic decency, it's not exactly *much*.
Note I didn't ask to apply common sense moderation to the userbase (which would get half the userbase banned from the forums for hate speech) or anything *drastic* like, I don't know, removing reviews filled with hate speech or blatant lies.
Surely, "Okay, maybe let's not have the rape game and the game where Bolsonero kills gays and minorities" aren't impossibly high standards to ask for ;) They're very tiny steps.
Really: If your platform has "we only remove games that don't work or are trolling", isn't it very telling that a rape glorification game is somehow not considered "trolling" towards women immediately?
One side wants to treat PC gaming like a Console War, the other is concerned that this platform will become centralized and walled up like those consoles.
Though, homophobia is a killer and a store not seeking bigotry out or considered the possibility is a bad look.
Just a question for you. How do you feel about Sweeney saying Alex Jones shouldn't have been deplatformed for freedom of speech or Shuhei Yoshida following him on Twitter ?
You want Epic to do what took Steam years to do in 3 months?
I hate that idiotic point of his, posted that specific line myself before in this forum, and it has a reason I'm preferring the itch store.
It's an opinion many "liberals" have in this forum as well, that deplatforming somehow doesn't work or is bad, and it's a shitty opinion. I tend to argue against them then, too.
My "support" for EGS is relative, ie, I support them over steam and gog because they harm me personally more with who they support - and because EGS now has one strike against it, Gog three, and Steam like 15. Only counting social stuff, mind, not gaming stuff, since I personally don't really care for launcher features, I mean, I like itch, and that doesn't have any features. Which is a feature in itself, just like it was in the case of Gog before they melted down.-
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