Yeah. Seems to be my read on the situation. Ultimately, it seems like a personal issue she needs to figure out how to resolve with herself.
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WaPo: To some, this queer couple look straight. For him, that’s okay. But for her, it feels ‘like a lie.’
- Thread starter Syriel
- Start date
Yep.
Dating Andy
Expressing your lesbianism through your relationships
Pick one
I personally use queer more about my sexual orientation which is everything from Pan to lesbian depending on my mood.... not my trans identity.
An opposite sex relationship with someone who is trans is not inherently queer especially when they want to just pass and don't even want to carry the trans label.
Since they're getting married, I believe she's already chosen. It's just that grappling with the repercussions of that choice is a difficult task, because it affects her (and, ultimately, both of them) on a very fundamental level.
But being trans is still part of that person's experiences, right? It informs who they are and how they've lived in the world. Isn't non-binary considered a queer identity, even though that's not necessarily a sexual orientation so much as gender identity?
Being a lot of things is part of a person's experiences that informs who they are and how they've lived in the world, doesn't make all those other things queer identities.
Non Binary you'll have to ask someone else as I'm not NB and for that matter Andy isn't NB either so that's not really relevant.
Andy here inherently talks of wanting to just fade into the background, to not make trans part of his core identity. Ergo he's wanting to mostly just take advantage of passing and live his life like that. Dating him is not really a queer act and presenting it as such can create the appearance of a suggestion that he's somehow not quite fully a man.
I just brought up NB in terms of queer only referring to sexual orientation, but fair enough. I understand what you are saying though.
Interesting situation. I think she should identify how she wants, just like he can. The relationship can be both queer and straight at the same time. They don't need to choose 1 label or justify it to anyone.
Welcome to the confusing world dating someone who came out as trans.
It's not uncommon for 2 staright people to find themself in a gay relationship or vise versa.
My ex stayed with me while still being as straight, although things started to fall apart once I identified as straight myself but nvm that right now.
Her frustration about being read as straight is understandable, but so is the reaction from others, since she is in fact in such a relationship.
It's unfortunate, but there is little she can do other than to get used to it or moving on
It's not uncommon for 2 staright people to find themself in a gay relationship or vise versa.
My ex stayed with me while still being as straight, although things started to fall apart once I identified as straight myself but nvm that right now.
Her frustration about being read as straight is understandable, but so is the reaction from others, since she is in fact in such a relationship.
It's unfortunate, but there is little she can do other than to get used to it or moving on
It is definitely an interesting situation. I can sort of relate just a tiny bit. Since even though I came out as bi/pan years ago, since I was dating a gal at the time people definitely assumed I was straight. And now that I am with a guy they almost always assume I am gay. Sure you could label the relationship that way, but it didn't describe my sexual identity and made a part of me feel pushed aside.
I personally was able to just start ignoring the assumptions of random strangers, while making sure the people who were the regulars in my personal life knew and respected my identity. She can do the same and continue to identify as lesbian despite being in a relationship with a man, since she clearly still loves him and is attracted to him despite her primary attraction to women.
I'm not sure she can do anything more than that unless her current relationship ends. Just because the relationship has a non-conforming label doesn't make it a lie.
I personally was able to just start ignoring the assumptions of random strangers, while making sure the people who were the regulars in my personal life knew and respected my identity. She can do the same and continue to identify as lesbian despite being in a relationship with a man, since she clearly still loves him and is attracted to him despite her primary attraction to women.
I'm not sure she can do anything more than that unless her current relationship ends. Just because the relationship has a non-conforming label doesn't make it a lie.
Why does she even care what other people think or as what they see the couple? Very strange stance and it's kind of needlessly throwing her partner under the bus.
As a trans woman
I think this entirely depends on who you're talking to. It's not really helpful to generalize and say it is or isn't. To some it will be important, to some it won't be. But I don't think anyone gets to decide that for anyone else.
I think there's something deeper going on with Kate's relationship to her mothers. The lesbian moms come from conservative families so they prefer her being with a man to explain to family gatherings and make her parties very typical straight female coded with pink decorations while they acknowledge Andy's queerness in decorations for his party. So her identity feels neglected in comparison.
Andy doesn't want to be defined by his transness, he wants to be seen mainly as a man. So he's fine with it all. Kate is losing her identity little by little and maybe it's selfish but this insecurity is worth exploring, possibly in therapy.
Andy doesn't want to be defined by his transness, he wants to be seen mainly as a man. So he's fine with it all. Kate is losing her identity little by little and maybe it's selfish but this insecurity is worth exploring, possibly in therapy.
Also as a trans woman
Yes and it seems pretty clear Andy doesn't really see it as a queer identity... notice I said it isn't inherently a queer identity.
This is interesting territory because I think what's happening is we are trying to change/fix/remove the way we define and see ourselves and at the same time trying to basically celebrate those differences. It seems like those two things are in conflict with each other.
I'm of the mind right now that it's more important to give up celebrating the differences because it makes it harder for some to put the fluidity in because they care more about appearances than just loving the person. The attraction and love is what matters more than being designated as something.
And of course I say, "I'm of the mind right now", because I'm not going to be 100% in conviction of this stance, and I could be wrong or figure out a better path in the future.
I'm of the mind right now that it's more important to give up celebrating the differences because it makes it harder for some to put the fluidity in because they care more about appearances than just loving the person. The attraction and love is what matters more than being designated as something.
And of course I say, "I'm of the mind right now", because I'm not going to be 100% in conviction of this stance, and I could be wrong or figure out a better path in the future.
I'm a trans woman. If people misgender me should I "get used to it or move on"?
It makes me unhappy when people who haven't been in that situation or lived through it make blanket judgments of cis people struggling in relationships with trans people as "transphobes". They didn't sign up for this, any more than I signed up for being trans. They have the right, the absolute right, to choose to end that relationship at any time without it automatically making them a 'transphobe". If they choose to stay, they have the responsibility to treat their trans partner with love and respect but also the right to ask questions, to grieve what they've lost, to feel how they feel and work through those emotions. Because if they didn't have that right, if it really was a matter of if your partner transitions they're not allowed to feel anything but unconditional love and support for that partner... I feel like it would be hard to have a healthy relationship with anybody under those conditions.
Feels like she just needs to decide whether the relationship is more important than her social identity.
I can certainly understand how one would have complicated feelings on the matter, but...I dunno, work it out.
On the other hand, this is also totally reasonable.
I think objectively I can sympathize with the way she feels, but I also place personal relationships before social perception, so the decision doesn't seem that difficult to me. If you love the person and accept them, stop equivocating.
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I've likely got this pegged wrong, but it sounds like Kate wants minority cool points, or likens her identity to perpetually being a minority because...
?
Edit: Before you quote this, know that I've since been made to better understand her pov.
?
Edit: Before you quote this, know that I've since been made to better understand her pov.
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Well, no longer being perceived as overtly lesbian robs her of the one social characteristic that made her special. Now she's just a hetero white woman with an education and a good job, doomed to a live of domestic mediocrity!
*attraction to HIM
**really gross of you to assume Kate wants "cool points" for having her sexual orientation recognized
Lol. I mean, I kind of get her being upset because identifying as lesbian has been such huge part of her life. But she's got a great relationship, and she's happy otherwise. The lesbian aspect doesn't just go away, but it also doesn't HAVE to explicitly define you externally.
So she has to choose to be in a relationship with her partner or admit that she's more in love with the idea that she's taken on one facet of her life as her core identity. Must be a hard choice... I feel bad for her partner.
She's not transphobic, she's just proud of being gay and is struggling because the person she's in love with identifies as a man and doesn't want to be seen as transgender. That's ultimately the issue even her own boyfriend admits to - he doesn't want to acknowledge that he's trans and just wants to fit in, so nobody in their new social circles actually knows he is.
This is negatively impacting her own identity because people are assuming she's straight when she isn't, but she can't exactly out her boyfriend for being trans if that would hurt him.
Nobody is at fault in this. It's just a really tricky situation to be in because people want to be seen as who they are. The girlfriend is just going to have to either suffer in silence for the sake of her boyfriend's happiness or leave the relationship.
Personally I think the relationship probably needs to end. It's just not fair on a lesbian to expect her to bury her sexual identity, nor is it fair to out a transgender man when he doesn't want to be outed. Someone is always going to be unhappy.
A lot of people coming down on the woman here, but I'm not sure how the man's desire to "pass" as non-trans is any less problematic.
Andy is a transgender man, he is not a cisgender man. Being transgender doesn't make you any less of a man, as Andy seems to feel it does, and I find his obsession with being seen as cisgender just as dangerous to this relationship as Kate's need to be seen as a lesbian while dating a man.
The only way these two people will last together is if they put labels aside and focus on their love for each other. Both individuals must have the confidence to see themselves as they want to be seen, or a perfectly viable relationship may falter due to insecurity.
(Note: I'm a mental health counselor who works with students of all ages in a very diverse area. This exact situation has come up with my students many times, so I'm speaking from a position of some experience.)
Andy is a transgender man, he is not a cisgender man. Being transgender doesn't make you any less of a man, as Andy seems to feel it does, and I find his obsession with being seen as cisgender just as dangerous to this relationship as Kate's need to be seen as a lesbian while dating a man.
The only way these two people will last together is if they put labels aside and focus on their love for each other. Both individuals must have the confidence to see themselves as they want to be seen, or a perfectly viable relationship may falter due to insecurity.
(Note: I'm a mental health counselor who works with students of all ages in a very diverse area. This exact situation has come up with my students many times, so I'm speaking from a position of some experience.)
You're not wrong. But there seem to be a lot of takes in general, not just within the bubble of straight members.
Would you be willing to point to a post that best describes your own position on this?
oops yes my mistake *HIM! I should go back and edit that sentence if that's alright, genuine mistake.
I'm not trying to assume that's what shes going for here and i realise it's kind of a shitty accusation but I don't know why else she puts so much stock into what others think of her identity as a pure lesbian and not someone who's now in a hetero relationship? You might say being accepted by lesbian peers and allowed into the spaces familiar or aspirational to you are important things to want, and i'd agree, but isn't that technically how "cool points" works?
Like its fair to want your identity recognized but the way it's being treated at the cost of her partner's identity... it shouldn't even have to work that way??
I hear ya man, trans folks should just be out 24/7 and if it gets us killed, hurt, attacked, shunned, at least it was for the cause!
There;s nothing problematic about not wanting to differentiate yourself from cis folk if that's what you want to do. For some of us being trans is just something we are, not who we are.
You have zero business telling any trans person that they have to carry the label openly. Some of us don't want to, some of us do, both are acceptable.
Also keep pass out of scare quotes.
No you're not, not about trans folk you're not.
I said the same, but thinking further, I'm thinking she just doesn't want to NOT be identified as lesbian because of the community she's lived in and been a part of for so long. Maybe otherwise it makes her feel like she's marginalizing or selling out that community in a way.
No, it shouldn't have to work that way. But as a trans pansexual lesbian, I have experience with relationships being complicated and people outside those relationships making all kinds of uninformed assumptions.
Her identity as a lesbian isn't because she "wants to be seen as cool/special" and is just as valid as his desire to be seen as the man he is. It actually is a core part of who she is. It's not for show, and neither is her desire to be seen as lesbian. That's just asking for basic acceptance of who she is.
Personally, I think they'll have to figure this out together, and it may not be decided in a way that makes sense to cishetero people, but in the event that's true...who fucking cares what objectors would take issue with. It's not our relationship, she's likely trying to be as supportive and accepting of him out of her love for him as she can be without neglecting her own identity, and she's also struggling against society's bullshit hot takes that she just wants attention. That's a pretty dismissive assumption for people to make.
I could be wrong but i thought that sex and gender are different.
From my understanding, her attraction to the same sex makes her queer. Her partner transitioned to a different gender, but is still the same sex, so its still a queer relationship? I could be wrong but thats how i read it.
You basically just said Andy is still actually a woman... so yes you'd be wrong here.
They need to ditch trying to fit in the standard labels and focus on their relationship with each other if they want it to survive. Trying too hard to codify things/themselves is just going to amplify issues.
Love is love, baby.
Love is love, baby.
I see, that makes sense. Either way, I wonder how this article came to be, seems like an awfully personal thing to give your face, names and make an article about on a national newspaper. Hope they can solve their conundrum.
I am a bisexual woman who was married to a cis man for a long time and is now engaged to another cis man. The fact that my long term relationships look straight does not erase my bisexuality and I am pretty forward with it. When someone I am out to calls me straight I get furious. You don't get to define my identity based on what might feel comfortable to you. I know what my attractions are, I am definitely not a straight woman.
So I kinda get it. She doesn't want to be called a lesbian because it's cool or for minority points. She wants to be called a lesbian because that's what she is.
Her partner becoming the exception shouldn't forcibly strip her of her hard-won identity.
I have empathy for him, too. He just wants to pass.
So continuing this relationship will incur a cost to either one of them. It's shitty to shrug, ignore that cost, and act like changing how you define yourself is so fucking easy just because you like how it looks from the outside.
God if I never hear the words "straight passing privilege" again in my life... It's erasure and it sucks.
So I kinda get it. She doesn't want to be called a lesbian because it's cool or for minority points. She wants to be called a lesbian because that's what she is.
Her partner becoming the exception shouldn't forcibly strip her of her hard-won identity.
I have empathy for him, too. He just wants to pass.
So continuing this relationship will incur a cost to either one of them. It's shitty to shrug, ignore that cost, and act like changing how you define yourself is so fucking easy just because you like how it looks from the outside.
God if I never hear the words "straight passing privilege" again in my life... It's erasure and it sucks.
So you're okay with the way that the community treats being trans as less than being cis?
Watching firsthand as the mental health and financial stability of many wonderful trans people that I work with is ruined over an obsession with passing as cis, an obsession fueled by anti-trans sentiment within the trans community itself, is painful.
My workplace/campus is not a community where trans men and women are in physical danger from identifying as trans. Obviously such places are still prevalent, but that doesn't apply here. This is a problem with a destructive hierarchy within the community, and it shouldn't be dismissed.
Lol you got me i'm totally cool with transphobic society!
Every fucking community is a community where trans folk are in danger of violence.
Trans folk can be open and not, both are acceptable choices. You insinuating that if we're not wanting to be open to we're working in service of transphobia is some massive bullshit.
You talk about toxic mentalities but here you are preaching that if you aren't wearing I'm not cis on your sleeve you're "problematic". Trans people don't have to be publicly trans if that's not what they desire. Trans is absolutely a community and identity to some, and that's great for them, for others it is just a thing we happened to be. If i wanted to live my life, which lol I don't even really, in such a way that folks know me as a woman and not a trans woman, that is perfectly acceptable and implying that I'd somehow be bad for doing so, and using psychological education as your excuse for that opinion is ridiculous.
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That's... messy.
I can see how she fell in love with someone who she saw as a woman and doesn't want to be seen as straight (or as in a relationship with a man). Especially if the man she's with is the only man she feels attracted to.
But he's a man, and I feel like wanting to define him as anything but "a man" is transphobic.
It's a real shitty situation and I'm not qualified to judge in the least, but it seems that she can't hold on to a lesbian identity without misgendering her male partner, right?
Even though I understand that this is possibly the only man she's attracted to.
Ah. I'm repeating myself. Again, goddamn, that's a messy situation.
I can see how she fell in love with someone who she saw as a woman and doesn't want to be seen as straight (or as in a relationship with a man). Especially if the man she's with is the only man she feels attracted to.
But he's a man, and I feel like wanting to define him as anything but "a man" is transphobic.
It's a real shitty situation and I'm not qualified to judge in the least, but it seems that she can't hold on to a lesbian identity without misgendering her male partner, right?
Even though I understand that this is possibly the only man she's attracted to.
Ah. I'm repeating myself. Again, goddamn, that's a messy situation.
Really great post, much more coherent and on point than my confused ramble. Fully agree.
At the very least, you don't view the highly destructive transphobia within the trans community as something worth taking seriously.
Nah bro you nailed it any trans person not open 24/7 is a trans traitor!
Of course she can hold onto her inherent identity, it's not like she stopped being a lesbian. She's just a lesbian who's marrying a man. Everything else is balancing supporting him as the man he absolutely is against the desire for her own identity to not be erased.