Status
Not open for further replies.
Oct 27, 2017
6,780
It's so obvious that:

#1 - Sanders never said anything like this.
- Bernie/Warren staffers told Washington Post that Sanders is right about this.




- Sanders has multiple public statements going back decades saying a woman can be president

#2 - Warren leaked this to CNN to try to salvage her declining campaign

- CNN's Erin Burnett said this explicitly on air




#3 - CNN was happy to promote this story in their effort to undermine the Sanders campaign

- The question to Warren "how did you feel when..." immediately after Sanders denied the claim, was incredible. It's literally a dispute between two primary sources, one of them has to be wrong, and CNN took Warren's side.

#4 - This smear campaign didn't go well for Warren and now she's trying to walk it back

- Every statement since the "leak" has been to avoid providing any deeper context even though Warren sticks with her version of the story.
#1 is misleading, because you took a nuanced answer (that you somehow concluded was verified by both Warren and Sanders aides) that says that Bernie in fact did broach the subject, and reduced it to 'Sanders never said that.'

#2 is also BS, because you're implying that every leak from her camp must be at her knowledge. This is the same level of critical thinking that says Sanders is responsible for all his problematic staff hires, because "it was ok'd by his team!"

#4 is predicated on this weird narrative that you loosely constructed as fact, that's unsurprisingly extremely light on concrete information.

I would say i'm shocked that people in this thread are co-signing this post, but the amount of people giving the benefit of the doubt to Sanders and in the same breathe/post calling Warren "a liar" is giving me whiplash.

This entire thing comes off as

-Warren asked Bernie the question
-Bernie gave a long winded answer about how Trump would try to use sexism to hurt a woman candidate but didn't actually directly say that a woman couldn't win
-Warren interpreted his answer as an indirect or "polite" no, Bernie intended it as a complicated yes but didn't really think about or care if the discussion is used to concern troll for a male candidate because he doesn't think about it like that
-Warren vents to staffers about how Bernie "practically" told her a woman can't win, it gets embellished in campaign folklore for a year
-Someone from the Warren camp gets the bright idea to leak the story
-Sanders gives an unexpectedly emphatic no and clarification and lays the blame on a third party
-Warren is stuck for hours because it's verified that she told that version of events to people, so she can't ignore it or throw them under the bus, she can't go scorched earth on Bernie now, and walking it back with a "well maybe there was a miscommunication/we remember it differently" would still leave the implication that she bad-mouthed a friend and colleague behind his back for a year based on a misunderstanding. So instead she straddles the line with this vague "we disagreed but I won't say what he actually said, let's move on"
I don't understand how anyone could not arrive at this conclusion^

This seems like the most straight forward read of the situation. Yet, reasonable posts like these are buried under mountains of conspiracy theories.
 

Henry Jones Jr

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,765
This whole thing is so stupid and its a shame that CNN spent as much time as they did on it. As someone who is going to caucus in a few weeks, this is a huge nothing burger for me. Sanders is still my #1, Warren a close #2 and I will still give her my vote if Bernie is not viable at my location.

In my mind, they don't look like liars and they probably have slightly different recollections / interpretations of what was said 2 years ago. Here is my guess at what happened:

They meet and Sanders tells Warren that he thinks it will be very hard for a Woman to beat Trump because he will sink so low to attack any candidate. Or maybe he even said he thinks a woman will not be able to beat Trump in 2020. Either way, she walked out of the meeting with the opinion that Sanders thought a woman could not win in 2020. She moves on and it seems to not be a huge deal to her.

Two years later, the story comes out, leaked by Warren campaign. I'm not super versed on how it came out, so I will give Warren the benefit of the doubt and say that her staff leaked it to try and help her without her consent. I feel this may be true, because it took so long for her to issue a statement, and the statement was so short. Almost a "I don't really want to talk about this at all" statement. I got the same feeling from her response at the debate. Sanders completely denies it because maybe he didn't actually say a woman could not win in 2020. Maybe it was like I said earlier where he said it would be difficult. Or maybe it was 2 years ago and he does not remember his exact words but thinks that whatever he said, he surely did not mean that a woman could not possibly win. I think the statement he gave at the debate was good, but perhaps he also could have added something about not remembering the exact wording of his conversation but give assurance that he does not think now and did not think then that a woman could not win. And perhaps apologize if something he said had given her that feeling.

As for the "no handshake-gate," I'm guessing that has nothing to do with their conversation from 2 years ago, but that she is upset at his blanket denial in the debate.

Again, it seems like such a microscopic issue (trying to dissect a conversation form 2 years ago--that ended up having no real effect on anything it seems--with only second hand knowledge) I hope the talk about it ends soon. They are my top 2 choice and remain so.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
Sanders wanting Warren to run in 2016 has nothing to do with the concept that he thinks she could have won and is as simple as he wanted someone who is inline with his economic visions to run and bring forward ideas that he didn't feel Clinton would.

Why people keep bringing it up as some fucking silver bullet of proof is beyond me because it doesn't take much thinking to realize the context of "can a women win" drastically changed post 2016 anyways.
 

ItIsOkBro

Happy New Year!!
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,569
it's like you guys want this to blow up for warren. the masses have willed a scandal into existence.
 

splash wave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,550
Bay Area, CA
It's pretty infuriating that Bernie won't admit any of it happened. Why can't he just admit he said something that could have accidentally been interpreted uncharitably. Instead he's forcing Liz to look like a liar. Yeah, no fucking shit she didn't want to shake his hand. He's been gaslighting her all day and done nothing to stop all of his fanatics from harassing her. What kind of a fucking friend is that.

Okay yeah Bernie you pushed her to run. So fucking what? That just means you wanted her to win, not that you thought a woman would have it easier than a man. It's insulting that you're pretending there's not a difference.

He clarified what he said in their conversation, and Warren's camp obviously released the rumor (and, if not, they're milking it for all it's worth), so there's no reason for her to be indignant about his denial. You're a pretty easy mark if you don't see this for what it is, given the timing and their respective standings in the polls.
 

datbapple

Banned
Nov 19, 2017
401
what a dumb thing to even give air. even if it was true, warren should just essentially "lil nigga" bernie and tell the people even if he said that shit she dont take it seriously and it aint stopping her from doing what she does best. instead she looks like a goober all burnt out on some shit that does not even fucking matter when we got a president getting people in his circle brazen enough to want to turn out a u.s. ambassadors fucking lights. lmao democrats are absolutely the best at fucking up at the finish line.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,469
It's pretty infuriating that Bernie won't admit any of it happened. Why can't he just admit he said something that could have accidentally been interpreted uncharitably. Instead he's forcing Liz to look like a liar. Yeah, no fucking shit she didn't want to shake his hand. He's been gaslighting her all day and done nothing to stop all of his fanatics from harassing her. What kind of a fucking friend is that.

Okay yeah Bernie you pushed her to run. So fucking what? That just means you wanted her to win, not that you thought a woman would have it easier than a man. It's insulting that you're pretending there's not a difference.

Bernie literally expounded in exactly what he said in the conversation in his official statement. Warren's official statement isn't that he "thought a woman would have it easier than a man"...Warren's official statement was that he did not think a woman could become president. Period.
 
Oct 27, 2017
551
This entire thing comes off as

-Warren asked Bernie the question
-Bernie gave a long winded answer about how Trump would try to use sexism to hurt a woman candidate but didn't actually directly say that a woman couldn't win
-Warren interpreted his answer as an indirect or "polite" no, Bernie intended it as a complicated yes but didn't really think about or care if the discussion is used to concern troll for a male candidate because he doesn't think about it like that
-Warren vents to staffers about how Bernie "practically" told her a woman can't win, it gets embellished in campaign folklore for a year
-Someone from the Warren camp gets the bright idea to leak the story
-Sanders gives an unexpectedly emphatic no and clarification and lays the blame on a third party
-Warren is stuck for hours because it's verified that she told that version of events to people, so she can't ignore it or throw them under the bus, she can't go scorched earth on Bernie now, and walking it back with a "well maybe there was a miscommunication/we remember it differently" would still leave the implication that she bad-mouthed a friend and colleague behind his back for a year based on a misunderstanding. So instead she straddles the line with this vague "we disagreed but I won't say what he actually said, let's move on"

This is my take on the situation yeah.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,742
This entire thing comes off as

-Warren asked Bernie the question
-Bernie gave a long winded answer about how Trump would try to use sexism to hurt a woman candidate but didn't actually directly say that a woman couldn't win
-Warren interpreted his answer as an indirect or "polite" no, Bernie intended it as a complicated yes but didn't really think about or care if the discussion is used to concern troll for a male candidate because he doesn't think about it like that
-Warren vents to staffers about how Bernie "practically" told her a woman can't win, it gets embellished in campaign folklore for a year
-Someone from the Warren camp gets the bright idea to leak the story
-Sanders gives an unexpectedly emphatic no and clarification and lays the blame on a third party
-Warren is stuck for hours because it's verified that she told that version of events to people, so she can't ignore it or throw them under the bus, she can't go scorched earth on Bernie now, and walking it back with a "well maybe there was a miscommunication/we remember it differently" would still leave the implication that she bad-mouthed a friend and colleague behind his back for a year based on a misunderstanding. So instead she straddles the line with this vague "we disagreed but I won't say what he actually said, let's move on"
This is exactly what happened and everyone in their heart of hearts knows it. The way this is being discussed without any nuance to exploitively further a political agenda is dumb.

I'm disappointed that the Warren campaign did this. She is good enough a candidate on her own with her policy stances. They didn't need to spin this sort of honest, good-faith private convo for cheap political points. But here we are.

She and Bernie are my top candidates. I hope they can resolve this and put it behind them before more damage is done to the advantage of Trump.
 

MickeyShaban

User requested temporary ban
Member
Nov 11, 2019
203
Looks like republicans and some of the media got what they wanted out of this. 25+ page thread on a handshake and its all over the internet in other places too. It's all over the news, taking away from the Lev Parnas document release yesterday.

We have been talking about how they are going to try to put Warren against Sanders and how we cannot buy into the crap. Yet, here we are. I don't care who said what, I would vote for either of them in a heartbeat.
 

Gyro Zeppeli

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,289
For this and every other poster saying this....

She is running in a tight presidential primary, and being that she is one of two progressive candidates, you don't do what she's doing because no one wins against the moderates when the movement is fractured. The conversation she is trying to have is based on a faulty premise because it's inaccurate as to what Bernie told her. What is that tweet supposed to imply to my post?

Regardless, who gives a shit about this nonsense? I'm voting for Bernie in the primary. If Warren wins, I'm for damn sure voting for her in the general election, as she's still my #2 pick. (I'll vote for Biden as well in the GE)
 

thebishop

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,758
ugh i just hate that mommy and daddy are fighting

imo it's a mistake to look at Sanders and Warren as two advocates for the same agenda. Warren's entire presence in this race undermines the "political revolution" which Sanders advocates. She had her chance to run in 2016 and decided not to risk going against the centralized power of the Clinton machine. Bernie took the risk and became a massively beloved figure. All her policies are engineered to be superficially similar to Sanders, yet deprived of their essential substance, which would directly confront corporate power, property, and the donor base of the Democratic party.

It couldn't me more clear in her embarrassing healthcare proposals.

In Sanders not only do we have a radical break with corporate-friendly liberalism, we have a mass movement of millions, an unlimited funding supply of small-dollar contributions, and the fundamental popularity/polling data to win this thing. We don't need another candidate, we don't need a "second choice". Particularly not a second choice who literally brings nothing to the table above and beyond what Sanders already has. All Warren is doing is confusing issues which would otherwise be clear, and sapping away maybe 5-10% of would-be Sanders votes. If she cared about the vision rather than her own career and the interests of the Democratic party establishment, she would get out of the race and endorse Sanders.
 

Double 0

Member
Nov 5, 2017
7,510
yes. I think she wants to highlight issues women face while running for office. If it backfires, then it's a miscalculation. But I don't see evidence of this backfiring.

Are you a guy? Because I feel like this is a very male response.

It also doesn't track with the last time she was called a liar: the firing.

Dealing with microaggressions isn't fun and isn't something you want to do in a public space. Because it usually doesn't work out for the person getting punched down.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
Idk who people think leaked this. People who were close enough to this convo that Warren would tell them about this private talk she had about the 2020 election, but not so close as to be associated with her campaign? That's pretty convenient.
If you tell three people, then they (or at least one of them) tell three people, the information gets distributed. Doesn't have to be someone close that leaked this.
 

Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,836
why would she be tweeting and emailing about it? of course she wants this discussion
What's confusing me about this is that she didn't start this, yet it seems like a hill she's willing to die on. It's bizarre. On one hand she's saying, "dinner is private, we're friends", but on the other hand she's refusing to let it die.
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
Are you a guy? Because I feel like this is a very male response.

It also doesn't track with the last time she was called a liar: the firing.

Dealing with microaggressions isn't fun and isn't something you want to do in a public space.
I think Warren benefits from this. And clearly the people who leaked this story do too, or otherwise wouldn't have done it.
 

stupei

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,801
Its shit posting without the risk basically. It's lazy, annoying and used as a shield because it's not technically "their words".

Agreed.

It's borderline Fox News tactics. "A lot of people are saying [take you don't want to take any actual responsibility for]."

Like if it was a scaldingly hilarious or unique joke and someone didn't want to take credit for something another person thought of, fair play, but it's always just "wow, Elizabeth Warren sure is a lying liar huh" levels of analysis. Poster can't come up with that on their own?
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,300
imo it's a mistake to look at Sanders and Warren as two advocates for the same agenda. Warren's entire presence in this race undermines the "political revolution" which Sanders advocates. She had her chance to run in 2016 and decided not to risk going against the centralized power of the Clinton machine. Bernie took the risk and became a massively beloved figure. All her policies are engineered to be superficially similar to Sanders, yet deprived of their essential substance, which would directly confront corporate power, property, and the donor base of the Democratic party.

It couldn't me more clear in her embarrassing healthcare proposals.

In Sanders not only do we have a radical break with corporate-friendly liberalism, we have a mass movement of millions, an unlimited funding supply of small-dollar contributions, and the fundamental popularity/polling data to win this thing. We don't need another candidate, we don't need a "second choice". Particularly not a second choice who literally brings nothing to the table above and beyond what Sanders already has. All Warren is doing is confusing issues which would otherwise be clear, and sapping away maybe 5-10% of would-be Sanders votes. If she cared about the vision rather than her own career and the interests of the Democratic party establishment, she would get out of the race and endorse Sanders.

Alternatively, you could say she stayed clear and let Sanders have a go and is now taking her shot.
 

shamanick

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,072
What's confusing me about this is that she didn't start this, yet it seems like a hill she's willing to die on. It's bizarre. On one hand she's saying, "dinner is private, we're friends", but on the other hand she's refusing to let it die.
Exactly - she's brought up the "a woman can't win" line repeatedly, while saying she doesn't want to talk about the private discussion. It's a classic cake-and-eating-it-too situation
 

thebishop

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,758
If you want to understand Warren's role in this primary, there's a great op-ed in the Financial Times which makes it crystal clear:

Millennial attitudes to capitalism should keep them up at night. The transient nuisance of a "progressive" administration should not. The priority of capitalists is not the election of Republicans. It is the maintenance of public support for capitalism. If this is best achieved through some redistribution and regulation, it would not be the first time.

Ms Warren is "a capitalist to my bones". She wants more, not less competition in the economy. If capitalists think that four or eight years of her leftish technocracy is the worst that can happen, they are not using their imaginations. Better her than a more severe reckoning with public opinion down the line. Better a controlled explosion than a random, all-engulfing one.

"Ardent US capitalists should embrace 'socialism'"

Warren is the "transient nuisance" which can keep the masses of pissed off workers from rejecting the system which exploits them and going into full scale revolt. The more forward-looking of the 1% understand this, but most of them do not.
 

stupei

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,801
why would she be tweeting and emailing about it? of course she wants this discussion

Just because a politician is trying to capitalize on something doesn't mean she planted it. This story isn't going to just suddenly disappear if she ignores it. What are people imagining would be proof she didn't leak it? If she refused to ever speak about it, would that somehow prove it?

People have already made up their minds that she's guilty, so everything she does is going to be proof of that.

What's confusing me about this is that she didn't start this, yet it seems like a hill she's willing to die on. It's bizarre. On one hand she's saying, "dinner is private, we're friends", but on the other hand she's refusing to let it die.

The way she was holding her hands at the end of the debate is being used as proof that this is a feud. You think it would just drop on its own?

Really?
 

thebishop

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,758
Just because a politician is trying to capitalize on something doesn't mean she planted it. This story isn't going to just suddenly disappear if she ignores it. What are people imagining would be proof she didn't leak it? If she refused to ever speak about it, would that somehow prove it?

A CNN host said on air that she planted it.
 

shamanick

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,072
Just because a politician is trying to capitalize on something doesn't mean she planted it. This story isn't going to just suddenly disappear if she ignores it. What are people imagining would be proof she didn't leak it? If she refused to ever speak about it, would that somehow prove it?

People have already made up their minds that she's guilty, so everything she does is going to be proof of that.
It's not proof that she planted it (I believe that SOMEONE in her camp did, with or without her knowledge), but she's repeatedly bringing it up while maintaining that she doesn't want to talk about it. It's contradictory behavior. If she really wanted to put it behind her she wouldn't be reminding everyone about it repeatedly

Just another example of how women always benefit from double standards, I guess.
It's possible to view Elizabeth Warren as a political actor in this situation without reducing her to simply her gender.
 

greenbird

"This guy are sick"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,098
What kind of a fucking friend is that.

Certainly not the type that
- invites their good friend to their house for a personal, confidential conversation
- asks them a question, and either doesn't like or has a different interpretation of the answer
- is all smiles for a year like they're in this together
- whose campaign drops the details of that old conversation to the media in an attempt to damage their friend at the most opportune time

What kind of a friend indeed.

This entire thing should have been a non-issue, but we're in the worst timeline.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
This all seems unbelievably insignificant
It really is. And I'm looking at her twitter feed and I'm not seeing her milking it. If anyone thinks she shouldn't address electability in general head on, I don't know what to tell them. The other women candidates did it and do it too, because it's the elephant in the room otherwise. But all this energy and focus? Wasted. And a whole lot of people showing asses in this thread.
 

thebishop

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,758
CNN attacking Sanders with 9D Chess

1. If you're suggesting CNN doesn't have a strategy of undermining and attacking Sanders, you're just ignoring the data. Here's some reading:

- https://www.businessinsider.com/bernie-sanders-attacked-from-all-sides-after-a-resurgence-2020-1
- https://www.thenation.com/article/sanders-warren-cnn-debate/

2. Warren is also not the first choice of corporate liberalism. Warren tarnished herself with these people by (to her absolute credit) speaking out against the Wall St banks for their creation of the global economic crisis of '08. She's making a political mistake by trying to triangulate between progressive (and increasingly socialist) voters, and the billionaires who run the party and own the media. She finds herself with a narrow base of middle class progressives who are also personally split in their affinity for social progress and identity with technocratic middle management.

If Biden's brain doesn't melt by November, the liberal establishment will happily take Biden over Warren. They'll only support her as a last resort against Bernie. The party would've much rather had a young, hip, and politically vapid figure like Beto O'Rourke or Kamala Harris as their torchbearer, but their campaigns never took off.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,422
I know that you're on time out, but I wanted to quote these messages in the hope that you'll see my post when you get back.

You aren't alone in feeling this way.

When it seems like Bernie Sanders is the only candidate offering actual material relief, then your perspective makes sense. The Dem nominee isn't owed your vote. And when the nominee is someone like Biden or Buttigieg (or Clinton), they are running on the status quo: the for-profit system that gave your family crushing medical debt, the predatory student loan/college system that put your family underwater, the military adventurism that has killed and maimed so many here and abroad.

What I will say is that, even though Warren absolutely botched the allegations of sexism against Sanders, I do think her record in the Senate stands for itself. While she's no Bernie, she would absolutely fight for the middle- and working-class people of America. I don't like what she did here, and she has shown that she has dogshit political instincts (echoes of DNA-gate), but I'd still vote for her in November as the Democratic nominee in the general election. Warren does represent an improvement over the Clintons and Obamas of the Democratic Party (on domestic policy, at least!).

I also would not vote for Joe Biden in the general election. I'll vote downticket (MD-8 has has a solid House rep, there are decent local candidates) but if Biden or Buttigieg are the nominee then I'll write-in someone acceptable to me. Trump is a monster but you're absolutely right, a return to normalcy isn't enough. It's this monstrous normalcy, cloaked in a veneer of civility, that gave us Trump in the first place.

Accelerationism is for fools.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.