Because that wouldn't lead to people overspending. It's all by design.
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[Waypoint] For Many Players, Lootboxes Are a Crisis That's Already Here
- Thread starter Minako
- Start date
That line of reasoning holds if their only negative aspect is their potentially addictive nature. But as they stand they seem like generally lazy ways to gate content behind money or time in a fashion sometimes wholly divorced from the users control or influence.
A lot of people don't like them for what they are rather than simply their potential to be predatory.
Which is the thing that pisses me off the most about lootboxes. They could absolutely find alternatives that could still get them enough money to provide content. But whales make for easily exploitable cash.
And tons of people don't give a shit because "muh free stuff!"
Not to mention you don't have to create as much content since the loot box scheme masks the lack of it. Create a few really desired items and throw them in a with a bunch of trash no one wants and it gives a nice illusion that there's a lot there.
In the last month and a half I have spent more mone in Warframe than in any other just because I know what I get.
The unfortunate reality is that lots of things drive people to suicide hotlines.
Again, until an actual study gets done we're all just pulling numbers out of thin air, but I sincerely doubt that the people with legitimate gambling disorders spending thousands of dollars on Overwatch boxes make up even a percent of the player base.
What the anti-lootbox people fail to acknowledge is that Overwatch lootboxes have caused more good than harm. It is a real tragedy that people with gambling addictions feel compelled to spend thousands of dollars on boxes, but that's life.
And that's a fair point, but one I disagree with. I personally really enjoy how they've allowed the games I play to routinely get new content, at a cost that is entirely my choice.
What? How? Loot boxes are detrimental to healthy and good game design and the satisfaction of rewards and awards through sheer skill, teamwork and incite. Loot boxes are gambling, predatory and raw, only those who have cash to shell out are rewarded and whoever doesn't/can't are missing out (despite having bought the game).
As someone who barely has money to buy games, it's quite disheartening to feel pressured to buy chances at stuff in games.
The only game I've *ever* bought with Loot Boxes was Overwatch. If I had any income I could spend on it, I'm sure that the Halloween event of 2017 would have been it. I desperately wanted a skin, and grinded a ton the week before the event ended. I never got it, and the last day before the event I spent the whole night playing the game, not having any fun, just trying to get a lootbox with that skin in it.
After being miserable when it ended and having nothing to show for it. I haven't touched Overwatch since, and It's because I *wanted* to spend money to get more chances to get the skin I wanted, because time was running out. That was the final straw. And it shows, as I haven't played a single match of Overwatch since. I honestly felt yanked along on a chain.
I can only feel for people who have lost so much money because of these kinds of tactics. I know for a fact a friend I used to play Overwatch with has at least spend 100+ dollars on it, and the only reason he played it was so I had someone to play with, so he didn't even like the game. It blew my mind. It still does honestly.
The only game I've *ever* bought with Loot Boxes was Overwatch. If I had any income I could spend on it, I'm sure that the Halloween event of 2017 would have been it. I desperately wanted a skin, and grinded a ton the week before the event ended. I never got it, and the last day before the event I spent the whole night playing the game, not having any fun, just trying to get a lootbox with that skin in it.
After being miserable when it ended and having nothing to show for it. I haven't touched Overwatch since, and It's because I *wanted* to spend money to get more chances to get the skin I wanted, because time was running out. That was the final straw. And it shows, as I haven't played a single match of Overwatch since. I honestly felt yanked along on a chain.
I can only feel for people who have lost so much money because of these kinds of tactics. I know for a fact a friend I used to play Overwatch with has at least spend 100+ dollars on it, and the only reason he played it was so I had someone to play with, so he didn't even like the game. It blew my mind. It still does honestly.
Definitive personal, legal, and financial damages. A few grand is a drop in the bucket. People will spend money on games but whales aren't common. There's a ceiling that people get to and stop because the rewards aren't the same. Some people have addictive personalities and will go to the extremes no matter what it is whether 12+ hours a day grinding loot in ARPGs, playing WoW endlessly, etc. An outlet for this lust isn't the problem, it's there's no support structure for the super vulnerable who literally can't control themselves. In cash gambling, the field is different due to personal, legal, and financial troubles being literally one hand a way and the ability to recoup your losses.
I mean, my experience with LB games is limited to Overwatch and PUBG, so maybe I should be more specific and point out that particular implementation as a success.
I don't think Toaster was trying to make a point about those old arcade games as much as dispelling the counterproductive "back in the good old days, things weren't like this" argument.
How is it a success though? Because you personally like the game?
Yep, and these practices have pushed me away from multiplayer shooters, no matter how much 'free stuff' is flaunted or dangled. I just refuse to support this business model from the initial purchase of said game(s).
Care to elaborate on the bolded part?
Think of it like this -> When you want something, would you rather know what you buy or play the lottery? There is only one reason for having a lottery, and that's when the rewards don't match the prize.
In the case of those games, me and several million people like the game and the constant stream of post launch support (funded by loot boxes) they've received.
If it's something completely superfluous (like a giant stuffed animal at a fair, or an Overwatch skin), I don't really care, honestly.
Financially successful doesn't mean necessarily constitute as successful implementation, otherwise cons and scams are also successful ways to get consumer money. There's so much wrong ethically, and perhaps legally, with loot boxes in games especially when people under 18 play them.
What is "ethically" wrong about Overwatch's implementation?
I know all of the recent scummy mtx loot crate issues definitely affected my purchasing habits. I didn't buy BF2, I never bought anything from the Eververse in D2 and even refunded Osiris. I was also surprised that I also didn't buy any OW loot crates after the recent updates. I always used to grab OW crates after updates but when I saw them this time I just thought they were a rip off. I might just be over lootcrates.
My experience is much better now than it was in the past so why would I want it to go back to how it used to be? Loot boxes provide a reason and the funding to give continued support. It's why a $15 game like CSGO has dedicated servers, big prize pools, and even the occasional update 5.5 years later. They don't even ruin the balance of the game since they're only cosmetic. Also nice that you can sell the drops/crates on the market to pay for it and other games.
I just don't see why this particular addiction is so important that it's a constant topic of discussion when there's a time fueled gaming addiction that impacts far more people and even has more severe consequences like obesity and potentially even death.
Then why defend lootboxes if it doesn't matter since it's a predatory practice that does actual, real harm to people. Perhaps not many, but at least enough for it to be an issue. If you don't care you would be just as fine with knowing what you get?
I wasn't talking specifically about OW but loot boxes in general, but to answer your question, it preys on the gambler's mindset of "needing it" when they don't really need it. There was and is nothing wrong with direct smaller purchases because you know what you're getting and it's fair on a trade basis. Loot boxes are designed to maximise profit and minimise rewards, all business and no pro-consumer in mind. Cosmetic-only or not it's all the same psychological effect. Imagine buying groceries at a store for healthy food, you're not allowed to buy the food off the shelves as you see fit but you must open food crates and you get whatever's inside or keep paying the retailer more until you finally get what you want. Same shit.
What is legally wrong with loot boxes? Is it the money transaction or act of gambling?
You seem to be forgetting (or more likely, omitting) that it funds the game and supports the developers.
The one thing that lootboxes tap into more than anything is that "keeping up with the Jones'" compulsion that teenagers have during adolescence. The "all the cool kids have it" attitude that influences bad behaviors like using their parents' credit cards to buy virtual items in attempts to appear cool to other online users. That is shit that you grow out of, but is difficult to deter at that age.
Both. Underraged purchase of digital goods for software that requires you to be of a certain age & loot boxes can be considered as gambling.
1. Not everybody is a gambler. Most people who play Overwatch enjoy them responsibly.
2. That's a particularly moronic analogy because you need food to live, and you don't need cosmetics to play the game. So it's quite literally not at all the "same shit."
There are ways to provide funding that are fair and not nefarious. The reason for it being random loot boxes is because it makes people spend more than they want, thus it's a predatory practice. People paying more than they can afford and being harmed isn't really the strongest reason I'd gladly see lootboxes being outright illegal. It's because it is detrimental to the gaming industry in the long run. I want developers to make games that make them money because they're good, not because they can manipulate people to spend money they can't afford.
Erm. In my post you quoted I asked if you wouldn't rather know what you get. Lootboxes isn't the only way to fund a game you know.
No, but it's a way to fund a game that is particularly nice for me and millions of other people who are lucky enough to not have gambling addictions.
So, this may all come as a shock to you, but:
- in 2018, more people play games on phones/tablets than consoles
- in 2018, most games on phones/tablets are F2P
- in 2018, many, many popular F2P games on phones/tablets have some sort of lootbox/gacha system, and they're from hundreds from publishers around the world.
And that is why it is a crisis.
I said it preys on the mindset, you don't have to be an actual gambler to be effected by the same problems as gambling brings. Lots of people who've "never gambled" and claim not to be a gambler spend hundreds, thousands of dollars on rather crappy skins for characters and guns. You're saying loot boxes encourage responsible behaviour? lmao
Also that analogy can be applied to any kind of purchase that you don't "need". DVDs, Blu Rays, kitchen utensils, books, clothes. You want a particular item but the retailer says you have to open [x] crate and "hope" you get what you want, otherwise keep giving them money since you say it's good because it financially supports them. If you had used your brain you would have known the point I was trying to insinuate.
I've been playing Overwatch since the beta. There is no good outcome (new maps/heroes/skins) that couldn't be achieved by simply selling the most desirable skins for money or selling the OW coins for money - you know, like they do for the OWL skins? The game has exposure outside of regular gaming communities which keeps bringing more players (which pay for the game) and with the push for eSports they are making money from licensing besides the merchandise. That's a lot of revenue sources and to add whale hunting on top of it all is just greed.
Then again. Why defend it since you can still have a good time if you get to know what you buy and it doesn't exploit the people who DO get harmed by it. That way you can still fund it and people don't get harmed as much. Win-win.
According to Blizzard, Overwatch has over 35 Million Players in October.
http://www.pcgamer.com/overwatch-breaks-35-million-player-mark/
35 Million x $40, is $1.4 Billion. Companies hide their total sales numbers. Some payed $60, some payed $40. That's numbers before it's $20 sale over the holiday last year.
Off the top of my head I can think of a few games who have had pretty amazing post launch support without extra monetization:
Shovel Knight
Towerfall
Splatoon
Splatoon 2
Team Fortress Classic
Quake 1
Quake 2
Quake 3
Diablo 2
Starcraft
Starcraft 2
ARMS
DOTA (1)
It's not apples to oranges though, Overwatch released in a pretty content light state. I'm pretty sure it will take Overwatch 10 years to have as many characters and modes as games like TimeSplitters or Mortal Kombat: Annihilation did when they launched.
Why is under-aged purchase of goods wrong in the digital market? The access to a credit card? Plenty of banking institutions offer VISA Debit for online purchases.
Gambling is tricky. You can't use the word "gambling" because it is extremely broad and encompasses basic RNG features like Diablo 3 farming. Gambling is wagering a thing for a potential thing. Like, the idea of "I bet you $5 you can't jump that stream with your bike" is a form of gambling and it's technically not illegal. It's usually only illegal if a third-party is making money off both transactions similar to how I can host a cash game for either $1/$1 or $50/$100 and it would be legal just because there's no rake (paying the house to host) as another person is making money off of it. You're technically allowed to "gamble" with another person, so in this case you're gambling with Blizzard or whomever has the lootboxes. It's nebulous at best. Gambling itself isn't a huge problem because there's not many links from video games to casino gambling as you're more likely to move from home games to casinos or a casino outright making you an addict.
Right now problem gambling requires a few things: legal, personal, or financial issues to be involved for you to be up there in terms of addiction. There's too low of a ceiling where this damage is quite minimal (as defenders will usually compare casino gambling stats). A person losing $5k to loot boxes in multiple games is a problem but it's not a severe one to create new legislation. At that point you open up arguments for max time in video games as they can be quite addicting.
I can see in the future that there could be regulation or changes but the envelope isn't pushed far enough yet to see disaster.
That's a silly argument. Everyday things like stress at work (a legal practice), alcohol (a legal substance), cigarettes (a legal substance), and various other factors can drive someone to that point. Hell, even just non-loot boxing having videogames have driven people to that point. People have died from video game addiction. So to point at lootboxes as the fault of human addiction is silly and nonsensical.
With regard to lootboxes and myself, I'm just glad I got through this shit with TF2 and paying for keys to open crates for hats. While I didn't spend huge amounts, and it was never more than I could afford, it was a massive waste which I deeply regret. I think the rare hats I do own actually just came from clever trading of some promotional items because I'd only ever got one Unusual hat from a crate and it was a low tier one (with I think a mid tier effect, it was ghosts).
Anyway, after dropping off of TF2 and then seeing crate show up in CS:GO and other places I had already learnt not to bother. It's a good thing that I don't get addicted to thing easily. Since then I've only bought one set of 5 lootboxes for Overwatch because an event was ending and I really wanted a Zenyatta skin and had spent all my in game coins on the Roadhog skin. I regret that purchase because it was a moment of weakness and a time limited event and I feel ashamed of it really.
But yeah, they are very exploitative (even the "just cosmetics!" ones) and while most people can enjoy games with them in and never touch them or have no issues buying the odd lootbox or 5, there are some people that get deep into it that can't necessarily afford it and that just sucks :(
It really doesn't help when companies have limited time events to add pressure to encourage lootbox sales.
Anyway, after dropping off of TF2 and then seeing crate show up in CS:GO and other places I had already learnt not to bother. It's a good thing that I don't get addicted to thing easily. Since then I've only bought one set of 5 lootboxes for Overwatch because an event was ending and I really wanted a Zenyatta skin and had spent all my in game coins on the Roadhog skin. I regret that purchase because it was a moment of weakness and a time limited event and I feel ashamed of it really.
But yeah, they are very exploitative (even the "just cosmetics!" ones) and while most people can enjoy games with them in and never touch them or have no issues buying the odd lootbox or 5, there are some people that get deep into it that can't necessarily afford it and that just sucks :(
It really doesn't help when companies have limited time events to add pressure to encourage lootbox sales.
I'm not saying they encourage anything. I'm just saying that if you're spending thousands of dollars you can't afford to get a completely cosmetic upgrade, you're not enjoying them responsibly. Thankfully most people don't do this.
And no, it's still a stupid analogy because I can still play Overwatch and get the full experience without spending a dime on boxes. The situation you're describing only compares to Overwatch, if Overwatch itself, or some of the game modes, were only attainable through a loot box. Which, even you can agree, is really, really stupid.
Bout as much as you deserve those free updates. Tell me why is having the option to purchase items directly in addition to loot boxes so terrible?
None of those games have anywhere near the developer support Overwatch has, and they certainly won't have it as long as Overwatch will.
I'm not even going to touch on the comparison to TimeSplitters or MK because I'm certain that with even a little bit of critical thinking you'll be able to come up with why that's a completely insane comparison.
It's not.
Ignoring the fact that there's value in having some skins be rare, Lootboxes make much more money than just regular micro-transactions.
It's not a terrible option, just the audience doesn't really care. You can't expect people to do things out of the goodness of your heart. Well, you can, but you're most likely going to be disappointed.
But you get that funding on the backs of gambling addicts. Much of the money that's being gotten from whales are from people that are genetically predisposed to gambling addictions.
I mean, if game disks contained lead or something and was hurting consumers, that would be bad enough. But the damage inflicted here isn't incidental, accidental, or even in theory divorced from the way the system works. The system hurts people by design. If it ever stopped hurting people, it would stop functioning. Addicts are the ones willing to drop that kind of cash.
It was calls to the suicide hotline and and trips to rehab that bought your Junkertowns and Moiras. Was it worth it?
Then why are pro lootbox people so hell bent on rejecting any criticism or suggested change to the system?
I hate them because bring real money stress into games when I stress over money in my real life all the time.
And even if I didn't hate them for that reason, nothing I get out of these things propping up games is worth the cost to people. I'd rather have less content if it meant less people ruined their lives over blind boxes.
And even if I didn't hate them for that reason, nothing I get out of these things propping up games is worth the cost to people. I'd rather have less content if it meant less people ruined their lives over blind boxes.