Salarians

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,794
momwife.club
Rob

Rob

Rob

can you smell

my fresh, aquatic scent over the airwaves? is it wafting through this podcast microphone?

you want me to smell your fresh, aquatic scent?
 

Pikachu

Traded his Bone Marrow for Pizza
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,402
Did I miss something with the slew of podcasts or did they not do a straight up "here is our top 10 or here are our individual top 10s"? I feel like the big two part one they kept saying during the episode stuff like "yeah I think this might make my list" as if there would be a separate time when the lists were made.

Or I zoned out during the pods.
 

prolezone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21
I wonder if Austin's assertion that Disco Elysium doesn't take sides is due to missing some dialogue?
Cindy's graffiti, "One Day I Will Return To Your Side" seemed pretty obviously meant as a big hopeful gesture by the devs. Especially when Kim says it's meant for the Aerostatics, and Henry can go, "nah, it's meant for something much higher than that" and one of the options is 'Disco Elysium'. The whole concept of Le Retour is explicitly revealed to be a communist revolution.

He should have lit that shit on fire is what I'm saying
 
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Azzanadra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,816
Canada
While Disco does mock "tankie" rhetoric, I would think its still a broadly left-wing project. Not least because tankie rhetoric isn't representative of socialism anyways. The history of the commune of Revachol speaks for itself, its unclear how much of a success it would have been but it was evidently undermined by liberals and meddling foreign powers before a case could have been made either way.

For what its worth, even character like Joyce remembers the commune with nostalgia, so I think communism in Disco Elysium did actually "work" (or at the very least held promise) and it wasn't some USSR/China-esque dystopia. In fact, the bullet holes near the Feld building make it clear that liberals ruthlessly crushed the communist movement before it even have a chance.

Ultimately however, the message I took away from Disco Elysium is to not let ideological purity be the driving force of your life.

The Deserter at the end is a literal embodiment of how slavish devotion to ideology can destroy a man, both physically and mentally. He views succumbing to his human instincts (in this case, sex) as "weakness" and is unable to see true beauty in the world as evident by his inability to see the phasmid.

This does not, of course validate a centrist (or "moralist") viewpoint either- the whole interaction with the Sunday Friend is perhaps the most biting critique in the entire game, and that character represents the Moralist faction.
 

benj

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,833
While Disco does mock "tankie" rhetoric, I would think its still a broadly left-wing project. Not least because tankie rhetoric isn't representative of socialism anyways. The history of the commune of Revachol speaks for itself, its unclear how much of a success it would have been but it was evidently undermined by liberals and meddling foreign powers before a case could have been made either way.

For what its worth, even character like Joyce remembers the commune with nostalgia, so I think communism in Disco Elysium did actually "work" (or at the very least held promise) and it wasn't some USSR/China-esque dystopia. In fact, the bullet holes near the Feld building make it clear that liberals ruthlessly crushed the communist movement before it even have a chance.

Ultimately however, the message I took away from Disco Elysium is to not let ideological purity be the driving force of your life.

The Deserter at the end is a literal embodiment of how slavish devotion to ideology can destroy a man, both physically and mentally. He views succumbing to his human instincts (in this case, sex) as "weakness" and is unable to see true beauty in the world as evident by his inability to see the phasmid.

This does not, of course validate a centrist (or "moralist") viewpoint either- the whole interaction with the Sunday Friend is perhaps the most biting critique in the entire game, and that character represents the Moralist faction.

I don't have time to do this justice rn, but I don't entirely agree with your read of the ending. The deserter's inability to see the phasmid wasn't whatsoever the product of his devotion and fanaticism; it was, as we're explicitly told, the product of having been in the phasmid's environment for a long period of time. Exposure to the phasmid's neurotoxin is what prevents seeing it; only those who have just encountered it can countenance it. Sometimes it takes fresh eyes.

I also don't think the deserter's devotion to communism destroyed him. On the contrary: The project of communist revolution was destroyed and gutted, forcing the deserter into a shadow of a life. Even in that half-life, though, he was able to maintain the communist project—to continue fighting a war that no one else knew they were still fighting. Specifically because he'd been relegated to this subaltern position, specifically because he was forced out of active conflict into spectatorship, he was able to watch the city, to understand where its flows congealed and its power moved—and then to do something about it.

wB8srBD.png


He isn't by any means an exemplary figure, and the game undermines the authority and rectitude of both his political project and his personal outlook in a number of ways. It is worth emphasizing, though, that with a single 'critique', he creates a vacuum in Martinaise—one that singlehandedly occasions an enormous amount of political upheaval and is, in its way, responsible for every bit of good that Harry does throughout the course of the game. Again, this is not by any means a tidy bit of optimism to close the game out with—I think the Phasmid conversation, and the conversation with Harry's department, do a lot to contextualize the deserter's actions—but the deserter is far from the game's most impotent or pitiable figure.
 

hat_hair

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,171
Did I miss something with the slew of podcasts or did they not do a straight up "here is our top 10 or here are our individual top 10s"? I feel like the big two part one they kept saying during the episode stuff like "yeah I think this might make my list" as if there would be a separate time when the lists were made.

Or I zoned out during the pods.

Patrick, Austin and Natalie all have lists that can be found here, titled "The Best Game of 2019 made me ..." . I haven't seen one for Rob or Cado or anybody else.
 

TheMrPliskin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,564
Austin's experience with an RP group in XIV was amazing. I've run into them a few times before in dungeons but they've generally always broke character to ask if I was cool with it.

I'm not too surprised by where he's ended up with the game though. The game definitely suffers if you aren't there for the content when it's new, both because of any combat oriented content loses all sense of challenge and because of the way people hype up the content. I thought Heavensward was fantastic when it came out but that's mainly because it was such a huge step up from ARR on all fronts. When it's removed from that context it's still pretty good but it's certainly not the amazing masterpiece it often gets painted as.

Stormblood would help address some of Austin's issues with the combat as it's the expansion where they really stepped up their encounter design for the more casual content and I think he might also gel with that story a little more as it moves away from the High Fantasy elements and sets it's focus back on the conflict with Empire.

Though he's also heard some variation of the above numerous times and it's still not entirely clicked with him. He's certainly given it more than a fair shake and I'm honestly surprised he's still sticking with it.

How was the Disco Elysium talk in terms of spoilers?
 

TheMrPliskin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,564
I've only listened to 20 minutes, but so far it's been fine. I was also worried since I just started the game last week and only played on session so far. Sounds like they're saving the real discussions for a spoiler cast.
Perfect, I'll go back and give that a listen, I'm curious to hear their thoughts on it.
 

hankenta

Member
Oct 25, 2017
675
Perfect, I'll go back and give that a listen, I'm curious to hear their thoughts on it.
I just listened to the rest of it. the most spoilery is Patrick telling a small story about stealing something from a certain dead body, and Austin talks a bit about what he thinks is the most important skill in the game. I think the skill thing is most significant as that can influence how you chose to build your character instead of discovering it for yourself. Austin elaborates a bit on his thoughts on the game's themes and takes on centrism, leftism, etc, but all in all it1s very brief as they're planning to do a spoiler cast.

Rob haven't played the game.
 

Haubergeon

Member
Jan 22, 2019
2,282
Austin's experience with an RP group in XIV was amazing. I've run into them a few times before in dungeons but they've generally always broke character to ask if I was cool with it.

I'm not too surprised by where he's ended up with the game though. The game definitely suffers if you aren't there for the content when it's new, both because of any combat oriented content loses all sense of challenge and because of the way people hype up the content. I thought Heavensward was fantastic when it came out but that's mainly because it was such a huge step up from ARR on all fronts. When it's removed from that context it's still pretty good but it's certainly not the amazing masterpiece it often gets painted as.

This is a huge problem with the game imo, so much of the game relies on novelty and being there when its current to truly experience the content as it was meant to be experienced because of how hard any content is trivialized the further and further you get from it. I loved Heavensward at the time, too, (and it was the height of the Healer experience, tbh, as someone whose only main interest is being in that role) but any content from then, just like anything after a certain period of time, is queued with the expectation of victory and minimal challenge.

Personally I think the basic Heavensward experience narratively isn't that interesting - it's not until 3.4 when the Warriors of Darkness thing really comes into play and the story transitions over to pre-Stormblood stuff that I personally find it the most compelling, leading all the way to now.
 

snausages

Member
Feb 12, 2018
10,566
Stormblood's content is so much more mechanically interesting than anything in Heavensward. That Ivalice Raid is the best thing they ever built for the game (outside of savage/ultimate which I've seen next to nothing of)

But man, fuck Stormblood. That MSQ is such a drag. Both it and the grindy HW endgame (when HW was the endgame) killed XIV for me until Shadowbringers came out.

If someone is still not on board after starting SB I couldn't recommend that they keep at it. It is great at ShB but not worth all that time.
 

TheMrPliskin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,564
This is a huge problem with the game imo, so much of the game relies on novelty and being there when its current to truly experience the content as it was meant to be experienced because of how hard any content is trivialized the further and further you get from it. I loved Heavensward at the time, too, (and it was the height of the Healer experience, tbh, as someone whose only main interest is being in that role) but any content from then, just like anything after a certain period of time, is queued with the expectation of victory and minimal challenge.

Personally I think the basic Heavensward experience narratively isn't that interesting - it's not until 3.4 when the Warriors of Darkness thing really comes into play and the story transitions over to pre-Stormblood stuff that I personally find it the most compelling, leading all the way to now.
I think a big example of how bad it's gotten is when you compare the 24 player raids from ARR to the 24 player raids in Stormblood. The ones in ARR can be beaten in around the same amount of time it takes to do a dungeon (15-20 minutes) whereas the ones in Stormblood can still run close to an hour.

I think it's one of the biggest issues for a newcomer to deal with and sadly I don't think that they'll ever really address it. It doesn't help that they keep gutting classes at lower levels which means that as a new player you're doing painfully easy content with like 3 useful abilities for the first 30 levels.

Agreed on your points about things getting interesting towards the end of the 3.X patches. I'm curious to hear Austin's thoughts on the patches because it introduces a lot of elements that are key for the next two expansions.
 

Zocano

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,027
Ya when I played FF14 (ARR and Heavensward) I thought the story was fine and enjoyable but that's about it. At no point did I think it was some revelatory narrative that justified the fervor around it. It just happens to be a decent story in an MMO format which I guess for people that only play MMOs I can see being in and of itself exceptional.

So when people all of a sudden started shouting to the heavens that it was amongst the best stories in games (before Shadowbringers) I had nothing to give but a side eye wondering if I played the same game other people did. Austin's impressions make me feel sane and that I did not in fact miss anything.

I'll *eventually* get around to playing Stormblood and Shadowbringer but the fact that an expansion purchase doesn't even come with a free month of time is still the number 1 reason why I never tried them out as they came out because fuck that noise. Honestly the scummiest thing to me and something I refuse to deal with.
 

Amibguous Cad

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,033
Late to the party, but I finally got to listen to their waypoints of the decade show.

Most of their criticism of Newsroom is warranted, of course, but it's hard not to notice how perfect a setup Waypoint itself is for a Sorkin show. It's about a young, upstart progressive voice in a traditionally conservative field carefully shepherding and nurturing an institution with an ideological mission that has to balance commercial and popular success on the one hand with personal integrity and the institution's mission. Whether he'll admit it or not, Austin is exactly the kind of idealistic and stubborn institution builder that Sorkin lionizes - and he has more than a little in common with Bartlett and McAvoy, at least in his best moments.
 

Garlic

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,689
Most of their criticism of Newsroom is warranted, of course, but it's hard not to notice how perfect a setup Waypoint itself is for a Sorkin show. It's about a young, upstart progressive voice in a traditionally conservative field carefully shepherding and nurturing an institution with an ideological mission that has to balance commercial and popular success on the one hand with personal integrity and the institution's mission. Whether he'll admit it or not, Austin is exactly the kind of idealistic and stubborn institution builder that Sorkin lionizes - and he has more than a little in common with Bartlett and McAvoy, at least in his best moments.

If someone wrote a paragraph like this about me I would probably be killed instantly from shame
 
Dec 1, 2017
325
the fact that an expansion purchase doesn't even come with a free month of time is still the number 1 reason why I never tried them out as they came out because fuck that noise. Honestly the scummiest thing to me and something I refuse to deal with.
The playtime to catchup to the end of MSQ right now is about 300 hours. The base game + 3 expacs cost 50$/40€ on PC, more on consoles, you get a free month, another free month if you want to crossplay with PS4, and the sub is 13$/11€.

I started in mid August, finished 5.0 at the end of November and I probably paid ~100€ total for the game, and got 300 hours out of it and unsubbed. Saying it's scummy is pretty disingenuous.

Like Austin says, the story isn't anything unseen in other media and it's a lot of fetch quests, grinding mobs, watching cutscenes and MMO shit, but when you got a good group, good dungeon, good music and a good cutscene, this game SLAPS. I don't regret those 300 hours, it made me not buy other games for those 3 months, reconnected me with a friend and talking with a classmate who was also playing.
 

ArjanN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,293
Late to the party, but I finally got to listen to their waypoints of the decade show.

Most of their criticism of Newsroom is warranted, of course, but it's hard not to notice how perfect a setup Waypoint itself is for a Sorkin show. It's about a young, upstart progressive voice in a traditionally conservative field carefully shepherding and nurturing an institution with an ideological mission that has to balance commercial and popular success on the one hand with personal integrity and the institution's mission. Whether he'll admit it or not, Austin is exactly the kind of idealistic and stubborn institution builder that Sorkin lionizes - and he has more than a little in common with Bartlett and McAvoy, at least in his best moments.

In the broad strokes I guess, if the waypoint staff were all worse written versions of themselves.
 

Avengers23

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,504
Sorkin writing women like Danika, Danielle, and Natalie would have been hilariously low key misogynistic.
 

Avengers23

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,504
It makes me happy that Austin is tuning in to AGDQ because I think he would have flipped over that blindfolded co-op Punch-Out speedrun this year.
 

Zocano

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,027
The playtime to catchup to the end of MSQ right now is about 300 hours. The base game + 3 expacs cost 50$/40€ on PC, more on consoles, you get a free month, another free month if you want to crossplay with PS4, and the sub is 13$/11€.

I started in mid August, finished 5.0 at the end of November and I probably paid ~100€ total for the game, and got 300 hours out of it and unsubbed. Saying it's scummy is pretty disingenuous.

Like Austin says, the story isn't anything unseen in other media and it's a lot of fetch quests, grinding mobs, watching cutscenes and MMO shit, but when you got a good group, good dungeon, good music and a good cutscene, this game SLAPS. I don't regret those 300 hours, it made me not buy other games for those 3 months, reconnected me with a friend and talking with a classmate who was also playing.

I'd rather not "repurchase" the game more than I need to. I'll investigate but I already have ARR and Heavensward, so I would just want to purchase Stormblood and Shadowbringers. I'm not saying you're not allowed to enjoy the game or anything, it just seemed like a decent story in an MMO format and not like this phenomenal experience that people seem to imply it as.

Raiding is all I'd care about anyway with my one raid buddy. Everything else has always been secondary in MMOs.

I say it's scummy cause it is scummy to me? I usually expect to get a free month with an expansion purchase and when I wanted to play stormblood and saw I would not get a free month and would have to pay an extra fee I chose not to play because of it. And I'm in a shit place right now so I'd easily poopsock that game and main story within two weeks no problem. I wouldn't need more than a month of playtime.
 

RepairmanJack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,447
Really hope they follow through with that Disco Elysium spoilercast, was really digging their discussion during the podcast.
 

Deleted member 203

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,899
minor gripe but i hate it when they bring the podcast to a screeching halt to explain some meme-y reference someone made off-handedly, like with the telling lies bit on the gotycast. No one who doesn't already know the reference was served by it, all it did was break the flow. There's too much cruft on their podcast in general imo.
 
Dec 1, 2017
325
I say it's scummy cause it is scummy to me? I usually expect to get a free month with an expansion purchase and when I wanted to play stormblood and saw I would not get a free month and would have to pay an extra fee I chose not to play because of it. And I'm in a shit place right now so I'd easily poopsock that game and main story within two weeks no problem. I wouldn't need more than a month of playtime.
Oh ok. Stormblood is actually included with Shadowbringers but yeah you'd still need to buy that + 1 month sub minimum.

I didn't see myself raiding regularly so I can't speak to that scene.
 
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Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,838
I would definitely listen to an entire Waypoints dedicated to The Newsroom. I've never seen it, but would make for excellent entertainment to hear them dissect it.
 

Avengers23

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,504
I would definitely listen to an entire Waypoints dedicated to The Newsroom. I've never seen it, but would make for excellent entertainment to hear them dissect it.
Especially if they dive into The Newsroom fan fic, like the Twitter accounts that were roleplaying as Jeff Daniels's Will McAvoy.
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,501
I never want to hear about Disc Elysium again. Like I get it, it's an RPG in the zeitgeist so it's the best RPG ever. But I've heard enough about it from everyone, thanks.
 

Brakke

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,798
I will take more disco talk over more dang FFXIV every day of the week and twice on Wednesdays.
 

PinkCrayon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,182
Late to the party, but I finally got to listen to their waypoints of the decade show.

Most of their criticism of Newsroom is warranted, of course, but it's hard not to notice how perfect a setup Waypoint itself is for a Sorkin show. It's about a young, upstart progressive voice in a traditionally conservative field carefully shepherding and nurturing an institution with an ideological mission that has to balance commercial and popular success on the one hand with personal integrity and the institution's mission. Whether he'll admit it or not, Austin is exactly the kind of idealistic and stubborn institution builder that Sorkin lionizes - and he has more than a little in common with Bartlett and McAvoy, at least in his best moments.
Holy shit
 

Deleted member 203

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,899
I never want to hear about Disc Elysium again. Like I get it, it's an RPG in the zeitgeist so it's the best RPG ever. But I've heard enough about it from everyone, thanks.
I haven't heard about it nearly enough tbh. I've only read like 2 good essays about it, and there's so much to unpack in that game. It's exceedingly rare for a game this interesting to come out. It can't be celebrated enough as far as I'm concerned.