What are some games that do level scaling very well/disastrously poorly?

[Beelzebufo]

I'm surprised to see BG3 mentioned here as being too easy. There was short period where I felt invincible once I reached level 4 or 5 (whatever level gives you Fireball and two actions per turn), but it quickly went back to every encounter feeling brutally difficult.

 

[Paladyn]

This was fixed a long time ago.

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I have no clue what anyone was even talking about with this. I clearly felt like I was getting stronger with levels. I guess I don't need to go back to a level 1 area at 5 and smash it up like I'm fighting a bunch of toddlers.

 

[sn00zer]

FF7 Rebirth dynamic difficulty did it really really well. I think that is mostly because it comes down to you have more abilities to use rather than raw numbers like traditional level scaling.

 

[psynergyadept]

Hmm…I don't remember Pokemon Gold and Silver being all that challenging; I guess I rebattled trainers to much


I don't know if it counts; but hated RE2 remake because of its "adaptive difficulty." Well my fucking bad I played smart and accurately….now it takes a full clip and a half to down a lowly tier zombie in the freaking leg!!!!😒

 

[TaxiDriver]

Diablo 4 was awful. I like the idea of levelling up and working your way up to a hard boss, or having the option to try early.

 

[Enduin]

Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire is quite good. The game offers three modes total, fixed levels and two different scaling options, the first being to have everything scale to your level, or to only have those enemies below you to scale up to your level so anything that's above your level remains so.

What I really like about it is that it doesn't change up the equipment or skills of said enemies that are being scaled up or down, so you still get a decent feel for being stronger than them, or weaker depending. Helps to prevent just absolutely steamrolling over enemies, while not making it feel as though you're not making any progress.

The game's biggest issue is that it's pretty easy to reach max level a lot earlier than the end of the game, so you tend to outclass a lot of enemies you find. But on the whole I think it was a really good implementation for the most part.

 

[snorlqx]

Diablo 4 is a disaster.

A power fantasy RPG where you never get to experience a power fantasy.

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This summarizes precisely why I disliked it.

Level scaling should never be in games. It ruins everything.

 

[Vexii]

ITT are a lot of people not knowing what level scaling is.

its when the game changes the levels of enemies across most/all of the game to match the player level.

This isn't the same thing as the game putting static higher level characters in later maps of the game.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire is quite good. The game offers three modes total, fixed levels and two different scaling options, the first being to have everything scale to your level, or to only have those enemies below you to scale up to your level so anything that's above your level remains so.

What I really like about it is that it doesn't change up the equipment or skills of said enemies that are being scaled up or down, so you still get a decent feel for being stronger than them, or weaker depending. Helps to prevent just absolutely steamrolling over enemies, while not making it feel as though you're not making any progress.

The game's biggest issue is that it's pretty easy to reach max level a lot earlier than the end of the game, so you tend to outclass a lot of enemies you find. But on the whole I think it was a really good implementation for the most part.

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I find this is often an issue in a lot of western made RPGs. Progression just stops with a fuck ton of content left to do leaving all of it feeling slightly unrewarding. Pillars, The Witcher 3, New Vegas, Dragon Age, the list goes on. It's a really weird decision I find always makes the games less fun, and it's not like it stops you from being overpowered either since even at those low level/soft caps you're already a god.

 

[mute]

There aren't really any fights in FFVIII that are hard enough to warrant you breaking the progression system. If you do, or if you don't like the idea of drawing 100's of magic from enemies, that's on you as the game never pushes back hard enough to justify this.

 

[Ferrio]

ITT are a lot of people not knowing what level scaling is.

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Exactly, BG3 mentioned makes no sense as it has 0 scaling. Running across enemies isn't a scaling issue (cause there is none), it's a "you're picking the wrong fight" issue.

 

[Moara]

FF7 Rebirth dynamic difficulty did it really really well. I think that is mostly because it comes down to you have more abilities to use rather than raw numbers like traditional level scaling.

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Yeah dynamic was pretty nice. Except for that one VR mission where you gotta kill the mindflayer before the two other small enemies that die from a tickle and automatically explode after a few seconds. That shit didn't feel balanced at all for dynamic lol. Mindflayer HP scaling was way too high at my level and killing it first was nearly impossible without a ton of luck involved

 

[Vexii]

Exactly, BG3 mentioned makes no sense as it has 0 scaling. Running across enemies isn't a scaling issue (cause there is none), it's a "you're picking the wrong fight" issue.

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Same with Pokémon Gold/Silver - "Grinding sucks because the highest level wild pokemon are level 24, this is bad level scaling"

That isn't bad level scaling, that's NO level scaling. Level scaling is what would fix that problem.

 

[Enduin]

I find this is often an issue in a lot of western made RPGs. Progression just stops with a fuck ton of content left to do leaving all of it feeling slightly unrewarding. Pillars, The Witcher 3, New Vegas, Dragon Age, the list goes on. It's a really weird decision I find always makes the games less fun, and it's not like it stops you from being overpowered either since even at those low level/soft caps you're already a god.

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I think a major issue with Western RPGs is the fact that they are heavily dependent on side content in most cases, so it's very hard to adequately balance the game when most players will not 100% complete the game so balancing is generally focused primarily just on main quest stuff and only a bit of side content being completed. They don't want to find themselves in a situation where players are many levels below max, missing it in high level spells and abilities, when they reach the end game if they choose to not complete all the different quests. Which then results in those players who do choose to engage every activity oftentimes finding themselves reaching max level or over level compared to a lot of the content.

Other things play a big role on this as well, a lot of Western RPGs tend to have pretty low level caps and they also tend to have a much greater focus on equipment that augments your stats and abilities. So it's really easy to get a fully kitted out party via side quests that just kind of dominates enemies of the same or even higher level simply because you have tons of unique and legendary type items equipped to all your party members. The fact that Western RPGs also tend to be more open-ended plays a role in this as well since players can often choose to go in a lot of different directions which can often result in something the developers intended to be done earlier and at a lower level being experienced later on so players are much more powerful than intended due to how they chose to progress through the content.

 

[dom]

Why are people even bringing up Pokemon? There's no level scaling in those games.

The encounters you run into are the same levels whether you are lvl 1 or lvl 100

 

[Cheesetriangles]

Baldur's Gate 2 has pretty good level scaling. Instead of increasing enemy stats, it will often substitute entirely different enemy spawns depending on your XP amount. So if you have leveled up a lot, instead of facing some skeletons in a dungeon, you might face a lich instead. Morrowind does the same thing, but only for non humanoid enemies. So bandits will be static, but you might face tougher kind of monsters. Not all spawns are like this, but a lot are. The problem with Oblivion was they applied this system to everything. Among other problems with the leveling system.

 

[Justin Bailey]

Magic levels in Secret of Mana. There's no way you will naturally cast the amount of spells to level normally so you just have to find a spot to cast the same spell over and over. It's even worse for the girl. Still love the game though.

 

[Hippopuncher12]

WoW is the only game I've ever liked scaling, I absolutely do not want that shit in any single player game I'm playing for sure, and I've yet to play another MP game that does it as well as WoW.

 

[naff]

huh, I thought BG3 did have a small amount of challenge or level scaling like a DM choosing the right encounter levels in a campaign (I know in BG2 dungeons could have different enemies based on your level, just like in a DnD campaign where dm's generally set challenge level for encounters to the average level of your party)

 

[SanderJK]

AC Odyssey ground my gears in a special way because you, your opponent and your gear had levels. If your gear was below your level your damage dropped,certain stealth kills would not hit a damage threshold.

And they put tertiary content in the game that only XP, no gold or upgrade mats.
So if you pick up the 'kill X of Y' quests you are weakening yourself. Your opponents level, you get 1 skill point but your damage drops by 10%.

 

[Doskoi Panda]

Tears of The Kingdom was pretty bad. After you clear a couple of dungeons there are so many black and silver goblins around, that take like 2-3 weapons to kill because of how bullet spongey they are, I pretty much just ran past content because it wasn't worth it.

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It genuinely shouldn't be taking you 2 to 3 weapons to kill those enemies

 

[zoodoo]

They all suck. I have never played a game with lvl scaling where it wouldn't have been better without

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

What on earth are the BG3 mentions in this thread? There is no scaling outside of the difficulty level you set it at. Enemy levels/placements/actions don't change based on you at all

Fallout 76 became a victim of this with their One wasteland update. You lose any sense of growth because enemies scale up with you up to a cap in certain areas. So even if you upgrade a gun and armor, you are still taking almost the same damage and taking the same amount of bullets to kill something which means you are constantly struggling for stimpacks and ammo. Thus There is little reprieve completing quests in an easy zone while stocking up rewards like there was at launch.

At 50, the game breaks open as you can equip any legendary someone drops for you or that you buy which can suddenly whip the curve in the other direction. They made it so ridiculously easy to level that new players often explode level wise before their gear can match which compounded the issue

 

[Finaika]

Diablo 4 is pretty good.

Playing with low level friends is awesome.

 

[naff]

I'm still level 2 lol I'm looking for this Haslin guy? I'm at this goblin camp or whatever and its brutal

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tbh, you just need to read a guide at this point.

 

[Alpheus]

I did enjoy the scaling in FFVIII, as the player has access to offense and defense the enemy is never capable of replicating, that being limit breaks and Guardian Forces. But I never had a problem with VIII's scaling personally, especially compared to other games like Kingdom of Amalur where it could get in the way of my enjoyment.

Definitely a degree of tolerance that is different depending on the player that these games try and strike a balance towards. Though I haven't played a Bethesda game since Skyrim but if it's changed since then I will probably get acquaintaned really quickly whenever I get to Fallout 4 and I still need to play through VII: Rebirth and see how they handled it in that game. So I'm a bit out of the loop on more recent level scaling offerings.

 

[7thFloor]

Lmao people mentioning BG3, a game WITHOUT any scaling, are part of the reason we have level scaling

 

[Torpedo Vegas]

Good, nobody.

Bad, everyone.

 

[writhingcorpse897]

Skyrim handles it extremely well and very differently than oblivion.

Rather than changing the stats of most enemies, higher level variants are instead spawned in to give the player more of a challenge if they're going back to "low-level" dungeons at high levels. It also helps keeps certain areas dangerous for low leveled characters, especially when paired with how certain encounter zones have minimum levels.

Trying to do something dwemer dungeon or a dungeon in Solstheim will be very difficult in the early game and would get easier as you progress later, but would still remain a decent challenge until you reach extremely high levels.

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Zelda does something similar. Much prefer this system.

 

[CatAssTrophy]

Devil Survivor was pretty great in that you absolutely don't really need to grind, and you'd only really do the free battles to get skills or money.

Oblivion's level scaling makes it an objectively bad game, since if you do it wrong (which it's easy to do), leveling up will technically make you weaker. It also removes enemies from the games ion it's entirety so you could end up missing certain foes if you happen to not travel near an area while leveling.
Also, leveled quest rewards, "Bandits" with Daedric armor and Glass swords, townspeople who funnily enough are capable of killing monsters easier than the guards and soldier, it's just awful.

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I didn't know that about Oblivion. How do I avoid this issue since I recently started a new run?

 

[flyinj]

Both Elder Scrolls online and Fallout 76 make levelling completely pointless because of scaling. They might as well just get rid of "levels" altogether and just have a battlepass of new spells and equipment you unlock to fight the all the monsters that are always the same level as you.

 

[Nessus]

Oblivion is the only game where before I even started I installed 2 mods to fix the level scaling of enemies and the way experience/leveling up skills works for the player.

 

[Mediking]

….. okay, okay.

I…might've….misunderstood what level scaling was. My bad.

 

[kurahador]

Devil Survivor 2 bosses is the right way. No matter your level, it'll always be a hard and close fight.

 

[Mikch85]

Not sure if that's level scaling, but my very modest experience with Assassin's Creed (Origins) was ruined because of the absurd "level emphasis". Like, literally, if you fight a trash mob one level above you they become a boss. On the other hand, a "strong" enemy one level beneath you becomes a joke.

In the end, I switched the game to easy mode cause I didn't want to deal with that crap.

 

[Neutron]

Oblivion is a broken scaling system combined with an even more broken character progression system.

My kingdom for a modern TES game with good gameplay.

 

[Egocrata]

Marvel Midnight Suns does level scaling REALLY well. You both feel meaningfully stronger (and can absolutely wreck some villains) but the challenge ratchet up in a way that fights remind HARD and you need to really think what you are doing.

The final boss fight on the DLC is fucking brutal, but beating it feels amazing. And if you play it right, you can wreck the dude. It is amazing.

Firaxis have always been great at this, really. XCOM was really good delivering this stuff.

 

[Berserker976]

The thing that makes Oblivion's system truly egregious in my opinion is not that you have to game the leveling system to keep up with enemy scaling, it's that no matter what, eventually the enemies will outpace you because your damage has a surprisingly low cap, and enemy health does not. So even if you plan things perfectly, at some point you will just become less and less effective until you have to spend 5 literal minutes swinging away at every Daedra to take them down.

 

[Bunkem]

AC Odyssey ruined Origins' fun combat with it's terrible scaling. Every fight felt the same.

 

[goodretina]

AC Odyssey ruined Origins' fun combat with it's terrible scaling. Every fight felt the same.

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This was my first thought.

My second thought was GOW: Ragnarok. Maybe it wasn't all level scaling, but it seemed like most enemies took way too many hits. I didn't feel like a god of war.

 

[LossAversion]

Oblivion is the poster child for bad level scaling. It's the leveling system that makes it so unbelievably stupid though. It's bad enough that enemies will obviously level with the player, completely breaking immersion, but the way the leveling system works is actually broken. If you don't understand how the leveling system works before you even start the game then you can screw yourself over. And once you know how it works, it feels really inorganic and unfun to have to game the system in order to avoid the pitfalls that come with it. Having to pick skills that you don't actually want to use as your major skills is the opposite of good design.

Resident Evil 4 would be my pick for a good example. I guess it's difficulty scaling rather than level scaling but it's hidden so well. I didn't even know that it was a thing until I read about it in a magazine.

The funniest answer is Demon's Souls. Making the game harder the more you struggle with it, lol.

 

[xpownz]

Baldur's Gate 3 scaling is hilariously bad. Explorer mode still has enemies hitting like a truck. No indication that you're underleveled until you realize you're too weak to win

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wait, isnt bg3 scaling bad exactly because the game is easy breezy even on tactician?

I've never had any challenge in bg3 except when I was trying to do crazy stuff

 

[JRedCX]

I disagree. I've been playing Explorer mode and whenever I do a "sidequest" and it involves combat... it quickly turns into a disaster. Every battle turns into this nail-biting thing and it shouldn't be like that. I just wanna knock enemies over and learn mechanics and experience the story and characters.

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This may sound harsh but I think this is a skill issue.

As a lot people has said there almost not scaling at all beyond the difficulty.

 

[Azaan60]

AC Odyssey ruined Origins' fun combat with it's terrible scaling. Every fight felt the same.

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AC Odyssey has some of the worst level scaling I have ever seen in a game.

By the end game every single enemy becomes a ridiculous damage sponge and combat becomes a massive chore.

Absolute dogshit of a game.