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Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
Because you're saying time, not development, and using her burning evil bastards as proof that her propensity to cruelty was always there. No, her focusing on killing evil bastards is proof of the opposite, that she targets those who are guilty of horrible crimes, not random people. When cruel things happen to random people who don't do anything, that just infuriates her.

For her to do THIS would mean that she stops caring about innocence. That isn't time, it would require definitive, life-altering changes.

Not to condescend but honest to god: what on earth did you think I meant by time?

Did you think I litteraly meant time and nothing else?

Her killing civilians is within the natural end of her character if developed more. Like several seasons more development. She would have to connect civilians with opponents. Have to develop the view that by opposing her they would be opposing breaking the chains.
 

Dr. Mario

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,926
Netherlands
It's literally American Imperialism: The Person, even down to her spreading "freedom" everywhere.
Yeah that's my take as well. If she had turned out the ultimate victor then that would have been even more problematic thematically than her being "a crazy bitch" (when there are other great women leads who are instrumental in the story at least)
 

Deleted member 4247

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,896
I don't mind her turning as such, but yeah, it happened way too fast and with too little to back it up. Sure, there was always something a bit too power hungry about her, but then HOLY SHIT WHAT'S GOING ON.

This season needed to be 10 episodes.
 

John Doe

Avenger
Jan 24, 2018
3,443
Her fleet is devastated, huge portions of her armies and her alliances are destroyed, and Jon Snow shows up with a wild story about walking dead men and the fate of the world. Dany could just ignore him. She could go to the Red Keep and wipe Cersei off the face of the planet. But she doesn't, because she trusts Jon, and she eventually loves him. Because what she really wants is the family she never had and a house with a red door. So she goes north to help him and loses one of her dragons, her baby, to a magic plot device so that the White Walkers can get through the Wall. Then she arrives in a Winterfell that doesn't accept her and treats her like vermin.

I agree with you, except this paragraph. It's a common point used to support Dany but it doesn't work to me.

Dany didn't go North to help Jon, she went North to help herself. She COULD have ignored him and gone to beat Cersei. Let's say she did do that. What would have happened?

The dead would have swept over the entire North and marched on KL. The only people who know how to defeat the dead, would be dead as well. Sam, Jon, the Northerners including Bran.

Dany would have won the battle but lost the overall War, if she didn't go North.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,749
You know what, honestly, I'd actually long forgotten about that.
It's easy to forgot, especially as we see it from Dany's point of view who feels betrayed by that women, so it's almost played off like she deserves it - Dany thinks she deserves it. But the women was a victim who killed the person that hurt her and was going to hurt others. And I think it's very symbolic that Dany's dragons come about after Dany burns a woman who was terrorised and raped and trying to save her people from oppressor - it's a foreshadowing of what the dragons are, the power of tyrants and the bringer of death and suffering.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,319
Yeah that's my take as well. If she had turned out the ultimate victor then that would have been even more problematic thematically than her being "a crazy bitch" (when there are other great women leads who are instrumental in the story at least)
But me saying this doesn't also mean I agree with the sudden turn, as they very clearly skipped several stages of character development for viewers to reflect on, and instead comes off as just "bitches be crazy"
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,083
It's literally American Imperialism: The Person, even down to her spreading "freedom" everywhere.

Man, I really wish GRRM hasn't made all the Valryians a bunch of Super Albino Aryans. Just making them Mediterranean-looking like actual Romans (who they are based on) would've removed a lot of this problematic shit. But I guess that wasn't "magical" enough ot whatever.
 

bombermouse

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,056
Sorry if I missed this in your post but don't blame yourself for rooting for the "wrong side".

I'd say reflect why you root or idealize any character at all. They are not you, don't project. Don't idolize any person fictional or real. Kill your idols.
 

LGHT_TRSN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,163
Because I'm not seeing why her having followers means that her cruelty to (again, evil bastards) is not okay, but other characters who do cruel things to evil bastards privately and with little fanfare is okay.

Nobody is saying her cruelty to evil bastards is "not ok." I'm not sure where ppl even got that idea....

People are saying that her cruelty is a precursor to her actions at KL, and her worshippers championing her for those actions leads her to a delusional state in which she believes she is destined to rule the world by any means necessary, and that any action she takes cannot be wrong because she is the only one who can make moral judgements.
 

McScroggz

The Fallen
Jan 11, 2018
5,974
Not to condescend but honest to god: what on earth did you think I meant by time?

Did you think I litteraly meant time and nothing else?

Her killing civilians is within the natural end of her character if developed more. Like several seasons more development. She would have to connect civilians with opponents. Have to develop the view that by opposing her they would be opposing breaking the chains.

I really wish D&D would have made it so Cersei brought civilians and her army right up to the red keep, and constructed it so that Dany felt somewhat justified in believing to end the siege she needed to destroy the red keep with Cersei in it. Then we have a Dany who is destructive and ignoring innocent lives but it's not her straight up murdering hundreds of thousands of people just to send a message to other cities/countries.

That's the Mad Queen I envisioned. One that was ruthless when pushed, and who would have executed some of the remaining lords after the siege that wouldn't immediately bend the knee. I imagine the books will be kind of like that.
 

Dr. Mario

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,926
Netherlands
But me saying this doesn't also mean I agree with the sudden turn, as they very clearly skipped several stages of character development for viewers to reflect on, and instead comes off as just "bitches be crazy"
Yes, yes, very much agreed (as does everyone else I reckon). The last season moved ridiculously fast and should have been at least two full seasons to really pull it off believably.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
But me saying this doesn't also mean I agree with the sudden turn, as they very clearly skipped several stages of character development for viewers to reflect on, and instead comes off as just "bitches be crazy"
Yep. I think everyone can agree that the season could have used a few more episodes to really round things out before the big events. Like, an additional episode in between episodes 3, 4, and 5 would have probably improved the overall flow greatly.
 

Mcfrank

Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,257
I still don't think she went insane. I think the made a choice which makes sense to her at the time and from her perspective. A decision in line with others we have seen her make. I am still team Dany.
 

Lucky241

Member
Oct 31, 2017
751
the shores of Carcosa
I agree with you OP. Dany was a special and rare character. She was a powerful inspiration for a lot of women. And then she got reduced to a plot object for another male character's "character growth arc" moment. Women characters in media so often get reduced to nothing more than something to be beaten, betrayed, or broken down so the men can have their "growth moments".

This story centered around two males and one female. And of course it ends with the female dying so Jon and Tyrion can have their "growth". How fucking predictable.
 

DigitalOp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
9,300
Because this was never a story that was going to reinforce the notion it's a valid course for history to continue to take? GoT is largely a criticism of concentrated power among one or only a precious few individuals. Dany wasn't going to give an inch though. She was so intent on everyone bending the knee she would never have gone along with even the (extremely incrementally progressive) constitutional monarchy established at the end of the story. And the North succeeding? Forget it. She'd sooner raze the whole region.
Fair, Like I told another poster, it just needed more development. Making it a 2 episode arc is so squandered and frankly what makes the whole thing annoying. Like others said, it doesn't seemed earned fully.

I don't think anyone is saying the slavers should have been spared or defending the slavers. The whole point is Slavers were an easy target for Dany to look amazing and just while at the same time building her army for the purpose of oppression. She freed slaves in the end to get bodies to use for the purpose of war and subjugating the 7 Kingdoms.

I mean Tyrion lays it out plainly. She killed bad people which made it easy for people to cheer her violence. It also had the effect of feeding her Savior Complex because she was killing the bad guys to wild cheers. She arrives in Westeros and suddenly the cheering and adulation is gone. She is seen as an Invading force with her army of Savages. It tears her apart inside that she is not welcomed with thunderous applause. She sees all the adulation that is thrown at Jon Snow and it tears her apart with doubt and anger. Then she learns the ultimate truth. Popular Jon Snow is actually the rightful Heir to the Targaryen claim.

Everything she used to build up her Savior Complex begins to fall apart on her. Outside of her Army no one loves her and cheers for her. Her entire I am the rightful ruler element dies before her eyes as she finds out Jon Snow is actually the rightful heir to the Targaryen legacy even if he says he doesn't want it he is a massive threat because Westeros would want him not her.

The season did her dirty in the sense it was all rushed to hell but there was no shocking heel turn. She ended up who she always was just far faster then it should have been.

Sure, but these are fucking dorks who want to write a show about slavery existing..... in 2019...

What if me and other black posters here were still slaves? A-hyuck! Sounds great. And then we gotta see posters talking about being bad for retaliating against slavers. Its eye rolling insulting.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,720
Not to condescend but honest to god: what on earth did you think I meant by time?

Did you think I litteraly meant time and nothing else?

Her killing civilians is within the natural end of her character if developed more. Like several seasons more development. She would have to connect civilians with opponents. Have to develop the view that by opposing her they would be opposing breaking the chains.
Again, your talking about it in terms of inevitability, which is the issue I take with your wording. No, I didn't think you meant literal time and nothing else, but your framing this as the natural end point of her development, and I'm telling you it isn't. As though if the show went on for more seasons, we'd just see more and more of her inner monster come out in increments. It would take more than just "framing civilians as opponents".

What I'm saying is that this would require a dramatic shift in her fundamental core values. To do that, you don't just need time, you'd need something that would fundamentally change how her entire conception of justice.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
106,220
We agree they did a very poor job the last two seasons especially. The fundamental problem we are having, I believe, is that the writers rushed the last two seasons and are asking us to fill in the gaps. That's generally pretty shitty, but I'm able to look at who she was growing into and understand how she would get to the point where she loses it. It seems like you are unwilling to accept her actions and who she became without all of those gaps filled. And to be clear I get it, we shouldn't have to fill in the gaps, but I am able to do it and accept it because I always have thought she would turn bad to some degree and for whatever reason you aren't willing to make that leap.

Regardless I'm sorry you're so disappointed in the show and what they did to her character. It sucks for me too. I just have a different perspective on Dany so I'm willing to accept the Mad Queen. That doesn't mean I'm right and you are wrong about how we interpret her character arc.

Pretty much, I refuse to fill in the gaps for something as massive as that. It's just bad writing to me.

the new threadmark mentions the books, but literally the closing chapter of the most recent book is Dany realizing she doesn't care about the little girl her dragons ate and deciding she will live by fire and blood because she thinks peace isn't worthwhile and compromise can't work

That sure would have been a great bit of foreshadowing to actually have in the show.

I still don't think she went insane. I think the made a choice which makes sense to her at the time and from her perspective. A decision in line with others we have seen her make. I am still team Dany.

Last episode pretty much spells it out for us though, especially in her final convo with Jon.
 

Damerman

Banned
Jun 9, 2018
850
I still don't think she went insane. I think the made a choice which makes sense to her at the time and from her perspective. A decision in line with others we have seen her make. I am still team Dany.
Id compare her to Osama bin laden. He wasn't insane... he thought he was fighting a war against tyrants. The mujahideen had their reasons for their jihad, Afghanistan had been through hell, and bin laden thought he was a hero for them.
 

Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,951
I still think there just needed more episodes between 3 and 5. Everything was rushed.
Yes i think the forshadowing was there but it would have made far more impact if they gave it more time. A lot of character arcs were fucked but Dany's one at least i can fill in for the most part. I thought the final episode was fine untill the moment after Daenerys died. Then it became a bit silly.

Anyway, curious towards the spinoffs. I do hope they will get great writers. There was a lot of silly stuff. Especially in the last season.

All in all there were some amazing episodes and performances in the entire series.
I might pick up the books.
 
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Mcfrank

Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,257
Pretty much, I refuse to fill in the gaps for something as massive as that. It's just bad writing to me.



That sure would have been a great bit of foreshadowing to actually have in the show.



Last episode pretty much spells it out for us though, especially in her final convo with Jon.

But those are the thoughts of every monarch ever. There is no such thing as a non-tyrant monarch.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
106,220

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,720
Nobody is saying her cruelty to evil bastards is "not ok." I'm not sure where ppl even got that idea....

People are saying that her cruelty is a precursor to her actions at KL, and her worshippers championing her for those actions leads her to a delusional state in which she believes she is destined to rule the world by any means necessary, and that any action she takes cannot be wrong because she is the only one who can make moral judgements.
This is the first post I made that you replied to

The problem with everyone going "buh wha bout all the timez she did the naughty thhing" is that this is a world where EVERYONE was a stupid, cruel jackass at some point.

What about the time Tyrion strangled Shae in a fit of rage? What about the time Arya fed Walder Frey Frey pie? What about the time Sansa gleefully watched Ramsay get eaten alive by dogs?

It's completely arbitrary to say that for Dany and Dany alone, her doing cruel things, regardless of who she was doing them to or why, was indicative of a monster beneath the surface.

As you can see, I'm discussing audience reaction in how they are using Dany's early arbitrary cruelty as justification for her psychopathy now, while ignoring that all characters have participated in cruelty to soem degree and often to degrees as insane as Dany.

That Dany becomes """""""delusionally self righteous""""""" doesn't really have anything to do with the contents of that post. I still disagree with that part, but that's more in regards to the books than the show, so I'll let others field whether Dany being sure of herself is okay or not.

But either way, nothing I was talking about had anything to do with her cult reinforcing her belief in that she's doing the right thing. And in any case, it's not like Arya or Sansa got anyone telling them "No, forced human feeding is bad", so while there wasn't a cult saying "You totes did the right thing" to Sansa or Arya, it's not like they were challenged in that.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,749
Last episode pretty much spells it out for us though, especially in her final convo with Jon.
I'm not sure that's insanity when she's been constantly talked that she has a destiny, especially due to her being the last of the blood of the dragon, being constantly taught growing up about the value of her blood/Valyrianess, and how she was constantly worshipped for it for a very long time. It's not really that unnatural she thinks she's special and has the right to destroy others who of course aren't seen as innocent as she sees them as against her. That's not madness, that's inherent supremacy talking. It's basically her being like Rhaegar (Who she is compared to alot in the books) who isn't mad but because of his "great destiny" he doesn't seem to care about the thousands that die because of his careless actions. Dany has an even greater effect because she has something even more dangerous and powerful than Rhaegar had.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
106,220
I'm not sure that's insanity when she's been constantly talked that she has a destiny, especially due to her being the last of the blood of the dragon, being constantly taught growing up about the value of her blood/Valyrianess, and how she was constantly worshipped for it for a very long time. It's not really that unnatural she thinks she's special and has the right to destroy others who of course aren't seen as innocent as she sees them as against her. That's not madness, that's inherent supremacy talking. It's basically her being like Rhaegar (Who she is compared to alot in the books) who isn't mad but because of his "great destiny" he doesn't seem to care about the thousands that die because of his careless actions. Dany has an even greater effect because she has something even more dangerous and powerful than Rhaegar had.

If you don't buy it, that's fine, I'm just saying it seemed obvious that's what the direction was going for since last episode.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
btw lindsay ellis is talking about this subject in the twitter


there's more tweets about it


That's reaching.

Again, your talking about it in terms of inevitability, which is the issue I take with your wording. No, I didn't think you meant literal time and nothing else, but your framing this as the natural end point of her development, and I'm telling you it isn't. As though if the show went on for more seasons, we'd just see more and more of her inner monster come out in increments. It would take more than just "framing civilians as opponents".

What I'm saying is that this would require a dramatic shift in her fundamental core values. To do that, you don't just need time, you'd need something that would fundamentally change how her entire conception of justice.

The show had always hinted that she cared more about her ego than she actually did civilians. Whenever push came to shove it took her council to pressure her into doing the right thing.

But look, surely we can agree at least that if they were determined to go down the path they did, she needed to be developed much, much more.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
34,430
All the male protagonists' crimes are whitewashed or forgotten on the show.

Tormund, the person who led raids on Northern villages, killing men, women, and children? Jon's bro.

Jon, who executed a ten-year-old boy because he was complicit in his assassination? dAnY yOu CAn'T kiLL cHiLdREn. (A line of thought that should by all rights be coming from her mouth, because prior to King's Landing, it was completely out of Daenerys' character to ever harm innocent children. That's what she crucified the slavemasters for.)

Tyrion, who obliterated Davos' fleet — and son — with wildfire? naw we're bros, all's cool 'n love 'n war. Tyrion, who's committed various crimes including murder? well gee guys, I thought about it off-screen between S4 and S5 and realized I was wrong.

Bronn, who literally just threatened to murder Tyrion and Jaime, gets Highgarden and the Master of Coin title (despite being illiterate and not knowing math).

The Hound, who chopped a little boy in half in S1: all good yo, cleganebowwwwwwl.

Prior to King's Landing, Daenerys' cruelties were comparatively mild, done to evil people. People often bring up the execution of the Tarlys, but they had betrayed their liegelord and ensured her death, siding with the actual Mad Queen — Cersei — who had zero claim to the throne. Then Randyll Tarly and his son denied two chances at living: by kneeling, or by taking the black (something you can't actually decline, as seen in S2, but I digress). In-universe, Daenerys was extraordinarily generous to offer clemency at all, considering their crimes are what houses have been eradicated or attainted for.

But yeah, what a bitch, she was ~totally always insane~.
Fantastic post.

Hell, I swear Dany gets more shit for having loved Khal Drogo, than Khal Drogo does for his crimes.

I think the best example of Dany's first sign of madness is in Season 1, when she burned alive the witch, Mirri Maz Duur.
Think about how those scenes unfolded.
It's actually super deep to think about now that the series is finally over.

1. Dany finds Mirri Maz Durr (witch) when the Dothraki are killing and raping the people of her village.
2. Dany asks Mirri to heal Khal Drogo. Instead, Mirri uses blood magic to kill him because he's the leader of a group of murderers/rapists.
3. Dany demands that Mirri should be THANKING her because she saved her life.

Mirri responds with:

"Saved me? Three of those riders had already raped me before you saved me, girl. I saw my god's house burn, there where I had healed men and women beyond counting. In the streets I saw piles of heads... the head of the baker who makes my bread, the head a young boy that I had cured of fever just three moons past. So... tell me again exactly what it was that you saved?" ―Mirri Maz Duur to Daenerys Targaryen



Dany then makes the decision to burn Mirri alive for killing Khal Drogo.



BDS mentioned in the OP: "Dany tries to change the Dothraki and end their cruelty towards women."

But again: How does Dany bring about change to end the cruelty towards women? One of Dany's first major acts in Season 1 was burning alive a woman (Mirri) who was raped multiple times by the Dothraki. Before Mirri dies, Dany says she'll get enjoyment from hearing Miri scream as she burns.

Food for thought:
  1. Can we fault Mirri for wanting to kill the leader of a group that raped/murdered thousands of women and children?
  2. In Season 1, the Dothrakis raped/murdered women and children in Mirri's village on a weekly basis. So it feels poetic that in Season 8, Dany would instruct the Dothrakis to kill thousands of women and children on the streets of King's Landing.
  3. This is only season 1 of the show: Dany is already talking about how much she enjoys hearing screams from people as they burn.

I'm not saying that Dany didn't have a good side or good intentions at one point. And I'm not saying that you should feel bad for rooting for Dany.

But even if Season 8 had never happened, I would still say she was about as much of an "inspiration" as Walter White from Breaking Bad.

That's also a good post and probably the best rebuttal I've seen.

That said I want to nitpick some details. From my memory (of the books, admittedly), Dany did not say she would "enjoy hearing Mirri's screams". Dany is actually fairly stoic about Mirri's fate. In the books, Mirri says defiantly, "You will not hear me scream", and Dany replies "I will. But it's not your screams I want, only your life.".

The only time I recall her feeling some sort of glee at people screaming while they burn, is about the Khalasar who abandoned her and raped and murdered everyone before leaving her, such as Mago, who raped a child Dany had rescued prior and then gave her to his men to rape again before cutting her throat. She is furious at this news and says she is the blood of the dragon and old Valyria and "these men will die screaming". (They presumably later do so, in Vaes Dothrak.)

But, perhaps this detail doesn't matter much, as she still unfairly blames Mirri for losing Drogo, and still sacrifices her in that ritual to awaken the dragons. I chalked a lot of that to her being distraught at the death of her son and husband though.

She COULD have ignored him and gone to beat Cersei. Let's say she did do that. What would have happened?

The dead would have swept over the entire North and marched on KL.
No, because if she never went north, the Night King would have never killed and revived her dragon to tear down the Wall....
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
btw lindsay ellis is talking about this subject in the twitter


there's more tweets about it

that's quite the take. I think most people saw an *actual tyrant* that had just murdered thousands of people being put down. I guess they could have let Arya kill her or someone poison her? Would that have made people or or less upset?

The comparison to domestic abusers is specious at best. A little gross, even.
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,449
Fair, Like I told another poster, it just needed more development. Making it a 2 episode arc is so squandered and frankly what makes the whole thing annoying. Like others said, it doesn't seemed earned fully.

Yeah, this definitely felt like two seasons worth of TV stuffed into six episodes. I'm satisfied with it myself, but it definitely could've had much more breathing room.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
While I wasn't invested into Dany, I did feel upset to see her go the way she did, in a sense, it was tragic and uncomfortable tale of missed potential, I do look back to earlier Thrones and think of her hopefulness to bring good, being the underdog and overcoming challenges, and her unfortunate fate that awaits, it does hurt a little. Poor Dany, but the game corrupts the hearts of anyone that plays it.
 

Aztechnology

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
14,151
They did a lot of characters in trash ways. I've had serious problems since the end of season 5. The outcome with Dany is certainly one that given all context could absolutely have happened. But it's almost certainly not the ending that should have happened. Basically at this point I'm just holding out for the novels. And as you said, I guess now you understand how Star Wars fans feel. It's pretty shitty right?
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,749
If you don't buy it, that's fine, I'm just saying it seemed obvious that's what the direction was going for since last episode.
Oh, with the sickly look they gave Dany, I agree that's what they are trying to play up but I think that's another misinterpretation by D&D. I don't think Dany is actually mad, even her actions in the show don't seem like madness, but anger and entitledness - which is understandable because it's how she's constantly taught and it subverts the inherant kindness she has.
 

Deepwater

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,349
Id compare her to Osama bin laden. He wasn't insane... he thought he was fighting a war against tyrants. The mujahideen had their reasons for their jihad, Afghanistan had been through hell, and bin laden thought he was a hero for them.

I've seen dany as a stand in for Hitler, America, and now Osama Bin Laden.

Every time y'all make these shallow comparisons it makes me want to claw my eyes out.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
34,430
The show had always hinted that she cared more about her ego than she actually did civilians. Whenever push came to shove it took her council to pressure her into doing the right thing.
Why does everyone ignore her decision to lock up her dragons after Drogon burnt that child? That was entirely her decision too....

Even more frustrating when in the books, Dany's moral compass is much stronger than Jorah's, who cares nothing about innocents or slaves, and Dany is the one who gets upset at him for that. In the show he's shown to be this solid moral anchor that is keeping her grounded. Ugh.
 

Damerman

Banned
Jun 9, 2018
850
btw lindsay ellis is talking about this subject in the twitter


there's more tweets about it

This is a fair argument... i personally vouch for representation in media so id be a hypocrite if i didnt call for better representation for women, even in this case.

What i will counter to his point is that the failure of the writers to properly bake in daenerys' heel turn contributes to that sexist narrative the ending had.
 

LGHT_TRSN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,163
This is the first post I made that you replied to



As you can see, I'm discussing audience reaction in how they are using Dany's early arbitrary cruelty as justification for her psychopathy now, while ignoring that all characters have participated in cruelty to soem degree and often to degrees as insane as Dany.

That Dany becomes """""""delusionally self righteous""""""" doesn't really have anything to do with the contents of that post. I still disagree with that part, but that's more in regards to the books than the show, so I'll let others field whether Dany being sure of herself is okay or not.

But either way, nothing I was talking about had anything to do with her cult reinforcing her belief in that she's doing the right thing. And in any case, it's not like Arya or Sansa got anyone telling them "No, forced human feeding is bad", so while there wasn't a cult saying "You totes did the right thing" to Sansa or Arya, it's not like they were challenged in that.

This entire conversation seems to center around her mass killing at KL and how it "destroyed her character." People believe that she wouldn't do that. Others are pointing out that her past actions are not only evidence that she would, but are precursors that reinforce her delusional beliefs.

So I'm not sure how it has nothing to do with her beliefs being reinforced. It has everything to do with it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
This entire conversation seems to center around her mass killing at KL and how it "destroyed her character." People believe that she wouldn't do that. Others are pointing out that her past actions are not only evidence that she would, but are precursors that reinforce her delusional beliefs.

So I'm not sure how it has nothing to do with her beliefs being reinforced. It has everything to do with it.
agreed.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
34,430
Because it doesn't mean that much to the current discussion?
You: "The show had always hinted that she cared more about her ego than she actually did civilians. Whenever push came to shove it took her council to pressure her into doing the right thing."
Me: "The show literally showed her as personally, without her council's prompting, making the decision to lock up her dragons after a single innocent civilian was accidentally killed."
You: "This doesn't mean anything."

...??
 

Gunslinger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,401
I disagree with OP TLJ is a fanfiction type of story written by a not so talented writer imo. He tried to argue with mark who knows the character much better than him that his idea was right lol.

Now onto Dany don't feel bad ever since books ran out we have had nothing but fanfiction like TLJ or Disney SW. Atleast they come up with Battle of Basterds while Rian Johnson failed miserably imo.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,749
Why does everyone ignore her decision to lock up her dragons after Drogon burnt that child? That was entirely her decision too....

Even more frustrating when in the books, Dany's moral compass is much stronger than Jorah's, who cares nothing about innocents or slaves, and Dany is the one who gets upset at him for that. In the show he's shown to be this solid moral anchor that is keeping her grounded. Ugh.
Oh yeah, Jorah was the worst in the show, I'm so annoyed how they tried to play him as a good person, he's not. If anything I always think he is one of the people that is subverting Dany's good, kind side and encouraging her superior "I am the Dragon" side, Dany is unfortunately surrounded by alot of people that worship her and encourage her that she is superior to everyone else.