SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,625
São Paulo - Brazil
Mass Effect 3 is a game that will be forever remembered by its ending. Thankfully not only because of that, but it will always be impossible to discuss it (and the trilogy as a whole) without talking about how it all ended.

EA is not the only one to blame here, Mac Walters and Casey Hudson are often seen as the biggest villains in this story, and they definitely deserve some of the flak, but I would argue that Eletronic Arts is the worst offender here. Why? Because of the criminal amount of time they gave Bioware to finish Mass Effect 3. ME2 was released on January 2010, Lair of the Shadow Broker, its last main DLC, on early september (Arrival was developed by a different team). ME3 was originally meant to release in late 2011, and then moved to March 2012. So Bioware had between 2 and 1.5 half years to developed the last entry in the trilogy.

It wasn't enough time, it wasn't nearly enough time. And you can see it everywhere you look. Mass Effect 3 is full of short comings and rough edges that can explained by how rushed it was. Take the 360 version, for example. You had to swap the disks in the most bizarre of fashions. While in ME2 you had to swap them once (as it should be), in ME3 you had to do that several times. Indeed, that was one early mission that you had to put disk 2 only to play it, then but disk 1 back to play the rest of the chapter. That rushed production is also seen in the writing that is full of weird lines and weirdly structures dialogues, in the quest journal, in the use of ME2's squadmates that got sidelined to unacceptable levels. In some weird technical problems... in short. Everywhere.

And even, I believe, in the endings. The fact that Priority: Earth got negatively streamlined because there was simply no time to work on it can be seen from assets that were never used. My guess, and it's only that, is that BIoware envisioned it as a Suicide Mission 2.0, with Shepard using resources just like they used squadmates in the final misison of ME2. What we got however was just a simple linear mission with a horde mode approach. But I also mean the endings themselves. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I think they chose the endings as they are (or were before the EC) simply because they were easy and fast. Any resemblence of good ideas they might have had were flooded by the need to get it done as fast as possible.

It wouldn't be a perfect game of course. It would still have its diana allers, like a worse dialogue system and a more automatic Shepard, but it could have been much better. I believe that.

And the biggest and utterly cruel irony in this is that Andromeda had exactly that. It had the time ME3 lacked. But it lacked the Bioware talent that was still there for ME3, even if some of it had already left.

Anyway, I just also wanted to say I really like Mass Effect.

mass_effect_by_virak_d5iscye-fullview.jpg


It's always a good ride.
 

Sulik2

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,168
The short dev time obviously had an impact, but its still the best playing Mass Effect game. The bigger oddity with EA is they never made a proper all three games + DLC bundle and basic port to the current gen of consoles. They apparently dislike money.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,381
Gentrified Brooklyn
I dunno.

I get the hate, but people act like it was the greatest of betrayals. I look at it like GOT's last season, nowhere near the quality of the show in the golden days, but still a fun ride in many aspects.

That new game to kick off a new trilogy a few years back, one that will not be names, now that's a betrayal.
 

Chivalry

Chicken Chaser
Banned
Nov 22, 2018
3,894
It's GoT Season 8 of videogames

Nah, it's totally fine and the game is the best in the series by a large margin, especially with the dlc. We deserved a better ending, though.
 

BizzyBum

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,206
New York
I'll never not be mad at the ending.

Definitely the start of the downfall of BioWare for me.

Mass Effect 2 was and will be their last great game.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
117,303
It amazes me, to this day, that an entire series that's about brokering peace and understanding between organic life and synthetic life ended with "NUH UH THEY CAN NEVER HAVE PEACE AND FUCK YOU FOR SUGGESTING THAT".

Who the hell came up with that endgame?
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,137
Chile
What hurt the most is that the game isn't even bad. The game itself is good, more action focused and TPS and stuff than the previous ones, but it suits the "all out war" theme it has. It has the atmosphere it needed to have, everything, except what you say here: time to let it flesh out.

And those fucking last 10 minutes of the game
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,499
And despite it being a bit of a disapointment, I'll take Mass Effect 3 over Anthem and Andromeda anyday.

It's like Ocarina of Time compared to them.
 

KartuneDX

Banned
Jan 12, 2018
2,381
Being totally honest, I can't understate the frustration and negative impact the ending had at the time. But looking back, I remember the series (1-3) fondly and still find them to be a huge achievement in narrative and storytelling. The trilogy failed in some ways but succeeded in so much more.
 

ClarkusDarkus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,736
I agree, I said many times the game had many issues but the ending masked what was a mediocre game.

Day 1 dlc for Javik
Ending the trilogy telling us to buy dlc
Harbinger just flies away
1 hub with 5 floors
Shite squadmates
Cameo roles for important ME2 squadmates
Import bug
Journal bug
Twitter deaths so they could force IGN lady in
MP needed for best ending
Shepard eavesdropping for fetch quests

ME was my fave games during the 360 era, But in my mind the series ended after the awesome LOTSB dlc for ME2.
 
OP
OP
SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,625
São Paulo - Brazil
Comparing with GOT is not a good comparsion. If Mass Effect was a TV show, the main problem people would have with it would be with the last 20 minutes of the very last episode, not the final season as a whole.
 

BrassDragon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,154
The Netherlands
I find it really disingenuous that we should give full credit to the developers when everything is peachy but as soon as the creative effort fails, it's the nebulous suits at the publisher's office who supposedly got in the way of the struggling artists.

No. The ending is a failure of vision and execution. That's on the artists.

BioWare owns this. BioWare leadership owns this.
 
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Minamu

Member
Nov 18, 2017
1,905
Sweden
I guess this could be considered a so called hot take but to me, for real, the only thing redeeming the game for me was being able to use voice commands with the kinect. It was an amazing feeling of really being a commander, like a precursor to modern day vr, immersion wise.
 

N.47H.4N

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,107
I played the trilogy for the first time in 2015, I knew all the controversy of the end, but I played without knowing the real reason, I loved the first two games, I played the third without updating to have the experience of those who played for the first time, and really it was terrible, I was wondering what went on in the minds of the fans who waited and anticipated the end of the trilogy for years, I played one game after another and I already knew that it would have a terrible ending, I can not even think what the fans went through, then I only did a reload of the save and updated the game to see the new end, it improved, but still it is very weak, the end is just the icing on the cake, I still liked Mass Effect 3, but it is disappointing for many other reasons other than the end.
 

Gigglepoo

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,317
I thought this was going to be about EA/BioWare changing the ending after fans complained. That's a much bigger "crime" whose ramifications can be felt whenever another online petition to change a game/movie/show crops up.

Mass Effect 3 is just one game and it's still a damn fine trilogy whose lofty ambition has rarely been approached by another franchise or game.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
117,303
OP is 100% right in their totally factual opinion that is totally based in reality.

Imagine thinking the publisher is solely responsible for the ending of the game being bad and not things like, ya know, poor management in the studio itself.

Yeah, I really don't blame EA for the terrible, terrible writing and design choices at work in ME3. That was entirely Mac Walters.
 

DSP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,120
I still enjoyed ME3, it has so many good moments that really get you and the journey and characters you met on the way mattered. It was an enjoyable game, much more than anything else they have put out since. It plays really well too. Yes, it could have been better with more time but you can say that for most games, you gotta ship it, it's a business first and the product was more than good enough sans the ending stuff which they went and improved over but it was still the same thing, that was their idea, it wouldn't really change with more time. They wanted to do that and they were free to do whatever, EA didn't force them to blow up the universe, that's probably something they'd hate because it made continuing this series that much harder.
 

ClarkusDarkus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,736
ME2 would have been just as bad as ME3 as EA wanted MP implemented into that game but development was too far gone into ME2 at the time, But you could see that linear cover shooting action creeping its way into it.

Casey/Mac are to blame though for ME3 ending, not so much EA.
 
May 26, 2018
24,161
I mean, I don't know if the ending was a crime against humanity.

But it completely, totally sucked and we may never understand what in the world Mac Walters and Casey Hudson were thinking.
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,115
To be honest I never had a big problem with the ending. To me the entire game was the trilogy ending and I thought they did a great job overall. ME3 wasn't quite as good as 2 but it was light years better than the first.
 

ClarkusDarkus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,736
Dead Space 3
Mass Effect 3

EA with there grubby hands ruined those series, Compare the first games in the series too the last.
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
OP is 100% right in their totally factual opinion that is totally based in reality.

Imagine thinking the publisher is solely responsible for the ending of the game being bad and not things like, ya know, poor management in the studio itself.
Yeah it's weird. Same thing happened with Anthem. All the itme the narrative was that EA is ruining Bioware, when it was mostly Bioware that ruined themselves.
 
Nov 30, 2017
288
At least there is a Mass Effect 3. While I agree with many of your points, what Valve did (or rather didn't do) with Half Life is a far worse crime in my opinion.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
117,303
Dead Space 3
Mass Effect 3

EA with there grubby hands ruined those series, Compare the first games in the series too the last.

I mean, you can blame EA for an increased focus on multiplayer.

But ME3's problems come down to the fact that the ending completely betrays the themes and plot/character development the entire trilogy was building up. That's not an EA problem, that's a leadership and writing problem.
 

Novel Mike

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,556
I agree OP and I think thats one reason things like the Indoctrination Theory became so prevalent after the release. People wanted to believe there was more going on and you know, maybe there was but whatever might have been planned they didn't have time to flesh it out and properly finish it which is why the whole final act just sucks and why everything post light beam teleporter felt so far and away from the series lore and history.

That said, it was one of many problems the game had and while its easy to blame EA for not giving them enough time. It should be clear by now that Bioware has a lot of other internal issues that go back many, many years that also likely contributed to this problem.

In short: Generally all involved at at fault and it shouldn't be put all on EA but I think that like the whole Anthem debacle that its the way that EA itself is run that lets all of these things happen even if they didn't purposefully fuck the game over the way that they operate leads to studios failure.
 
OP
OP
SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,625
São Paulo - Brazil
I thought this was going to be about EA/BioWare changing the ending after fans complained. That's a much bigger "crime" whose ramifications can be felt whenever another online petition to change a game/movie/show crops up.

Mass Effect 3 is just one game and it's still a damn fine trilogy whose lofty ambition has rarely been approached by another franchise or game.
Yeah, I really don't blame EA for the terrible, terrible writing and design choices at work in ME3. That was entirely Mac Walters.
ME2 would have been just as bad as ME3 as EA wanted MP implemented into that game but development was too far gone into ME2 at the time, But you could see that linear cover shooting action creeping its way into it.

Casey/Mac are to blame though for ME3 ending, not so much EA.

I don't want to say it was only EA, but I do think it was mostly EA. And I'm not someone that used to hate them back then, or even a couple years ago (now I do though). But I do think Mac Walters and Casey Hudson visions could work better if they had more time to develop them. It might never be a good ending, but it would be a normal one. One that wouldn't cause the clusterfuck it did. One that wouldn't taint the trilogy (and their careers).

Think of it in this way, You are a bridge engineer. Normally it takes you 6 months to design a bridge, then it comes a company and demands you to design one in one month. You do and it collapses. That's what I believe happened with ME3's ending.
 

LaTasse

Member
Nov 7, 2017
219
It's Bioware's fault, not EA's. They mismanaged the whole plot and fucked up the ending by themselves.
 

Deleted member 3208

Oct 25, 2017
11,934
By now I may be broken clock, but many problems of ME3 happened because ME2 didn't do its job to be a proper sequel to the first Mass Effect. ME3 had the problem of having to continue the Reaper storyline after ME2 ignored because it wanted to focus in the Collectors.

Of course, EA isn't innocent though. Instead of giving Bioware time to develop the final entry in Shephard's trilogy, they always force a product to be rushed to please their shareholders. That said, even if Bioware had more time, I doubt the final product would have been good. Perhaps a mediocre ending and a rushed story thanks to ME2 shortcomings.
 

N.47H.4N

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,107
What they did with ME2's squadmates is probably the biggest sin in this game,what the hell were they thinking?EA rushed and fuck everything.
 

pants

Shinra Employee
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,287
Thankfully Citadel was so good that it redeemed the trilogy and made Mass Effect 3 worth replaying. As far as I'm concerned its the canon ending.

Few games - or even stories - get a second chance or even knock it out of the park like Citadel did.
 

m_dorian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,403
Athens, Greece
It was not only the ending.
But i can't blame EA because the failure was the consequence of very bad writing that showed its ugly face early, from ME 2.
In ME2 the redeeming factor and what made the game enjoying were that the characters were fairly well written -Daddy issues aside.

For ME 3, a game that had the most enjoyable game play of the series, main plot was a huge failure with a couple strong moments, that led to an ending so stupid that would be forever remembered.

Never again Lots of speculation from everyone.

Never again.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
117,303
I don't want to say it was only EA, but I do think it was mostly EA. And I'm not someone that used to hate them back then, or even a couple years ago (now I do though). But I do think Mac Walters and Casey Hudson visions could work better if they had more time to develop them. It might never be a good ending, but it would be a normal one. One that wouldn't cause the clusterfuck it did. One that wouldn't taint the trilogy (and their careers).

Think of it in this way, You are a bridge engineer. Normally it takes you 6 months to design a bridge, then it comes a company and demands you to design one in one month. You do and it collapses. That's what I believe happened with ME3's ending.

But the thing is that this wasn't a question of time, this was a question of intent. The entire series was building up towards a theme of disparate and even hostile peoples coming together against an insurmountable threat.

Then Space Baby shows up and his thesis statement is "no, you can never work together, you will always destroy each other, end of line". And you're not allowed to challenge it at all.

This is not "they didn't have enough time to flesh it out", it's Mac Walters stapling the ending of a different story onto the end of Mass Effect.
 

Chirotera

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,302
It amazes me, to this day, that an entire series that's about brokering peace and understanding between organic life and synthetic life ended with "NUH UH THEY CAN NEVER HAVE PEACE AND FUCK YOU FOR SUGGESTING THAT".

Who the hell came up with that endgame?

Right? In the SAME damn game where you do just fucking that between the Geth and Quarians. Couldn't even bring it up at the end. Like, wtf?
 

CyberCaesar

Banned
Mar 12, 2019
236
The Mass Effect trilogy remains to be one of the best sci-fi series ever. If only they could reboot and make the indoctrination theory canon. It'd be perfect.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
117,303
Right? In the SAME damn game where you do just fucking that between the Geth and Quarians. Couldn't even bring it up at the end. Like, wtf?

It's absolutely insane that Shepard isn't allowed to be like "no, we solved your flawed logic, look at what we did" and present the Geth/Quarian peace as evidence. It's like they figured nobody would ever go for that path.
 
OP
OP
SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,625
São Paulo - Brazil
But the thing is that this wasn't a question of time, this was a question of intent. The entire series was building up towards a theme of disparate and even hostile peoples coming together against an insurmountable threat.

Then Space Baby shows up and his thesis statement is "no, you can never work together, you will always destroy each other, end of line". And you're not allowed to challenge it at all.

This is not "they didn't have enough time to flesh it out", it's Mac Walters stapling the ending of a different story onto the end of Mass Effect.

It's possible, and maybe even more likely. But I want to believe another version of events. That the end is so abrupt, so disconnected, because it had to be done so fast.