FlintSpace

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,817
It was a corporate decision with developers twist on it.

It needed to be friendly to first time players, hence ME-3 was twisted to remain in that shell. Just like Dead Space 3, just like Fallout 4. They couldn't remain RPG-y enough because they had lighting in a bottle and making action-adventure-shooter for mainstream was the correct decision revenue wise.

They made those story sacrifices willingly. Damn shame, but they did their best I guess because I enjoyed the journey a lot.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
-To be brutally honest, these games don't really flow into each other as well as you would hope or expect. Characters will change into completely different ones (nerdy archeologist Liara in ME1 becomes shrewd information broker Liara in ME2)
This is the biggest BioWare-ism that really should be stopped, just for their own sake. BioWare always has this trope between games of "rewarding" continuity with unbelievable character "upgrades". This is an example of that. I recall in the Trespasser DLC of Dragon Age Inquisition there's a two year gap since the main story ended and when you meet just about anyone from the squad it's like "This guy became king of the city, this person became leader of the stuff" and they do that in ME2 and ME3 as well. It's kind of a slap in the face to the player's investment or belief in the storytelling imo, because this is such a lazy "we wanted the character to go here" but without showing that development.

That's one of the good things about Liara's information-broker arc at least. They made it a DLC to show her becoming the shadow broker. A really ballsy move to be honest, and it sure did obliterate a lot of the fan myths and theories surrounding the truth of the Shadow Broker back in 2010 because a lot of players speculated about it because of ME1, but for the most part that DLC really did it justice because the progression is shown, not told, and the Broker's deals as well as Liara's involvement with it ties thematically back into what's important to Shepard's arc which is his friendships and the fact that he died and was recovered thanks to Liara.

But all in all I really wish BioWare would stop taking character-leaps between games. Ashley/Kaidan jump about 6 ranks from what they were in Mass Effect 2 to Mass Effect 3, and I know, it was to foreshadow how meddlesome Udina became as the councilor (even if you totally chose Anderson........) and how he was "secretly EVIL and working with Cerberus". Man...

I do believe large parts of the storyline is well told. The macro-level storytelling is really solid in regards to the conflict of Us vs Them; Our civilization and the previous extinct species versus the Reaper "gods", and the big-level threads like the Krogan vs Turians vs Salarians or Geth vs Quarian are given so much respect over the course of the trilogy -- it's just that between all the great stuff there's some really egrigous inconsistencies and that is, as you said, pervasive.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
- One thing about ME3 that I wanted to say is that I think the problem with Cerberus is less that we fight it too much and more that we fight the reaper too little. I suppose you could say it's the same, but I think most missions that you fight Cerberus it made sense to fight them (as much as sense as Cerberus could have considering how much they changed, at least). They were small raids or precision strikes.
We all know ME3 was rushed, for such a big game conceptually, especially.

However, one thing I've realized is that a lot of ME2's DLC was probably used as prep-work for ME3, such as the kinds of enemies you fight in Lair of the Shadow Broker. I actually think that Cerberus were even more persistent in earlier drafts of ME3's plotline and facts support that. Prior to a rather big rewrite that took place in the midst of 2011 Cerberus were indoctrinated from the start and everyone in the story saw that clear as day, to the point where it literally was "Cerberus has sided with the Reapers!" and several cut lines of dialogue and even some that made it into the final draft suggest the same thing. I believe that decision was made because BioWare, in that short development time, looked at the Reaper threat and said "Shit, can we even make this faction the enemy?".

That's right, at the start of ME3's development I believe BioWare used Cerberus as a scapegoat in case they couldn't create a proper Reaper enemy faction, just strictly in terms of game-design, because if they hadn't been able to flesh out a Reaper type enemy in time Cerberus would've been the placeholder for that. So for all intents and purposes BioWare did improve the quality of the story in the extra time they were given when the game was delayed from Holiday 2011 to March 2012 and it all comes down to EA (most likely douchebag Riccitello) deciding from the outset that ME2 being the success it was, ME3 needed to come out at the end of the next fiscal year to look good on their report, with no idea or concern for why people loved that game. That's just EA in a nutshell, or it was back then.
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
It's a shame because while I think every game has its merits, even ME3, it would have been nice to see some more connective tissue between games; the connections we do have in the series vis a vis characters living or dying feels really half-assed, because they all boil down to "Not-Wrex but slightly worse," "Not-Mordin but slightly worse," "Not-Legion but slightly worse," and so on. They are literal placeholders in case you screwed up and got the actually interesting characters killed.
I'm not familiar with Mordin or Legion's replacements, but Wrex's brother standing in for him severely changed the tone of all the Tuchanka scenes.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
I'm not familiar with Mordin or Legion's replacements, but Wrex's brother standing in for him severely changed the tone of all the Tuchanka scenes.
Mordin's replacement is really just a "we had to have someone". Of course you get completely different conversations about the genophage on the Normandy but he fills the exact same role, right down to going up the tower at the end, but if you sabotage the cure he won't sacrifice himself to stand in your way unlike Mordin. But the game is so obvious about him being in place of mordin that Joker breaks the 4th wall by constantly referring to him as "Not-Mordin". Mordin was the only character that died in my original playthrough so this was really jarring.
 

JCHandsom

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
4,218
That's a very nice write up and I agree with a lot of the things you say. Even the ones that I don't I can understand where they are coming from. A few notes:

- I think places looking different from game to game is not really a problem. It's more about Bioware having mroe knowledge of the engine and being abel to bring their vision more fully into reality. Places in ME1 suffer from a lack of detail.

- I think the work ME1 does in stablishing the universe is indeed incredible and I somewhat took it for granted for quite a long time. I knew it was great, I knew I loved the series after the very first playthrough, but it was only after playing many other games that fail to achieve such a great result that I realized it wasn't as easy as I might have thought. I do think it could do with less text. I'm sure a lot of people love the reading the codex and I'm one of them, 30% of the time. I feel a lot of entires (not only in ME1, but the other games as well) don't really make the universe better. Take two examples: space travel and space combat. In the first we have quite a few entries talking about it, and I feel most are necessary, yet when we actually see shipping going into lightspeed it looks just like any other Sci-Fi, while if we go by the lore ships in the Mass Effect universe travels like the one in The Expanse, only that mass effect fields make it FTL. The second example is worse because many codex entries exist only for the sake of existing. Everything we see about ships, about how space battles are fought and the weapons that are used are never shown in the cutscenes. Or are 98% ignored. So you have one universe of the codex and the other of the cutscenes, that can be improved. I think the codex works best when they give you a small and loose idea of what this or that concept is, but the nuance and richness comes from other places, like dialogue.

- Squadmates in ME1 can feel like walking codex, espcially Liara and Tali. The others one I found much more natural. And about characters chaning too much from one game to the other. Liara yes, she is one character in ME1 and a completely another one in ME2 and ME3, but the others? I found their evolution very reasonable.

- One thing about ME3 that I wanted to say is that I think the problem with Cerberus is less that we fight it too much and more that we fight the reaper too little. I suppose you could say it's the same, but I think most missions that you fight Cerberus it made sense to fight them (as much as sense as Cerberus could have considering how much they changed, at least). They were small raids or precision strikes. The problem comes not only from the Reapers having few missions, but from those missions being just small segments as well, not different from Cerberus' raids. Take the mission in Palaven's moon. It was supposed to be a major battle against reapers force, but it feels no different than any other level. Missions like that should have been bigger and more interactive.

- Final point, I don't think the Reapers were a "millstone around the neck". Their concept is awesome, and everytime I play the trilogy I feel they were an incredible foe that had a pathetic use in ME3. This negative view about the Reapers is common though and I've seen many fans saying that if they ever reboot the franchise, they should do without them. I can see the appeal of that but I can't say I fully agree. The Mass Effect universe might have been just as rich without the Repaers, but the story wouldn't be. The Reapers give a reason for the things to change, for status quo long stablished to be dismantled. They could have been handled much better, but my whole poing in this thread was that ME3 didn't have the time to even try to handle them better.

Anyway, I only wanted to say a few words. I'm gonna stop now.

The thing about the Reapers is that they work best the less you know about them, which is a problem because a direct conflict with them kinda necessitates that you learn more about them, which inevitably removes all other interesting possibilities for their existence. They're also so unbelievably powerful that any sort of confrontation with them necessitates the kind of deus ex machina handwave we get with the Crucible in order to defeat them. It's only in retrospect that so much of Mass Effect was dragged down by the Reapers, but that having been said I wouldn't want them completely excised, just treated more like the Borg from Star Trek or the White Walkers in the early seasons of GoT; we know they're there, they're coming for us, and we'll have to deal with them eventually, but for now we have to deal with these more immediate, more manageable threats right now. ME2 did this and honestly if things didn't need to end in a trilogy we could have had so many other games before a Reaper invasion we could have mined so many other stories to tell. Again though, it's a matter of hindsight.

As for fighting Cerberus, having just completed ME3 I can tell you that Cerberus is crazy overpowered in this game. Here is a non-comprehensive list of what they are able to accomplish in ME3:

-Infiltrate the Citadel and nearly overthrow it in a coup attempt, outgunning C-Sec and any Spectres on hand
-Operate in multiple theaters of war all across the galaxy in missions that involve at least several battalions of soldiers in the various story and N7 missions
-Operate a fleet of ships, including at least one cruiser-class ship and several advanced, cutting edge fighters, sufficient in size to commit the Alliance's entire Fifth Fleet in the assault on Cronos Station
-Run the experiments and facilities conducted at Sanctuary on Horizon that housed, according to the planet's population estimates and assuming that not everyone living on Horizon was at Sanctuary, at minimum hundreds of thousands of people
-Inflitrate an STG base on the Salarian Homeworld undetected, or basically outmaneuver the smartest and sneakiest of the Citadel races

This is despite only having around 150 operatives total in ME2 and spending most of their resources on rebuilding you, rebuilding the Normandy, and Project Overlord. See, EDI says after you've removed her AI shackles that Cerberus is divided into three cells of 50 members (we can assume that Overlord is the third cell's focus given that she confirms Lazarus and rebuilding the Normandy were the other two, at least if I recall correctly) that each are given their own project and funding to work on independent of the other cells, and although she says that Cerberus has funding in the "billions" it is a little incredulous to believe that they can resurrect Shepard at the confirmed cost of 2 billion credits, rebuild and upgrade the Normandy at assuredly several times that cost given that Rear Admiral Mikhailovich says the first one cost as much as a heavy cruiser in the first game, run the four separate installations working on Overlord, finance the scientists and soldiers and engineers working at the miscellaneous sites like the Dead Reaper and Project Hammerhead, operate Cronos Station and whatever they've got going on there, and then less than a year later be able to train, equip, and field an entire army and navy on top of all that.

So yeah, long story short, could have done with a lot less Cerberus and a lot more Reaper fighting. And DON'T get me STARTED on Kai Leng lol

This is the biggest BioWare-ism that really should be stopped, just for their own sake. BioWare always has this trope between games of "rewarding" continuity with unbelievable character "upgrades". This is an example of that. I recall in the Trespasser DLC of Dragon Age Inquisition there's a two year gap since the main story ended and when you meet just about anyone from the squad it's like "This guy became king of the city, this person became leader of the stuff" and they do that in ME2 and ME3 as well. It's kind of a slap in the face to the player's investment or belief in the storytelling imo, because this is such a lazy "we wanted the character to go here" but without showing that development.

That's one of the good things about Liara's information-broker arc at least. They made it a DLC to show her becoming the shadow broker. A really ballsy move to be honest, and it sure did obliterate a lot of the fan myths and theories surrounding the truth of the Shadow Broker back in 2010 because a lot of players speculated about it because of ME1, but for the most part that DLC really did it justice because the progression is shown, not told, and the Broker's deals as well as Liara's involvement with it ties thematically back into what's important to Shepard's arc which is his friendships and the fact that he died and was recovered thanks to Liara.

But all in all I really wish BioWare would stop taking character-leaps between games. Ashley/Kaidan jump about 6 ranks from what they were in Mass Effect 2 to Mass Effect 3, and I know, it was to foreshadow how meddlesome Udina became as the councilor (even if you totally chose Anderson........) and how he was "secretly EVIL and working with Cerberus". Man...

I do believe large parts of the storyline is well told. The macro-level storytelling is really solid in regards to the conflict of Us vs Them; Our civilization and the previous extinct species versus the Reaper "gods", and the big-level threads like the Krogan vs Turians vs Salarians or Geth vs Quarian are given so much respect over the course of the trilogy -- it's just that between all the great stuff there's some really egrigous inconsistencies and that is, as you said, pervasive.
There's also Wrex becoming the de facto leader of Tuchanka after being a mercenary less than 2 years earlier in ME1, Garrus going from beatcop to Batman (although I think this one works the best considering it had been established Garrus was good enough to be considered for Spectre status earlier) to adviser to Palaven's leadership in ME3, Tali going from teenage girl to participating in Quarian Special Ops missions (again this is somewhat explained as her just being there for technical expertise and besides she was with Shepard) to potentially becoming an Admiral in ME3, and so on. It's not that any of these are bad per se, in fact some of them like Space Batman are genuinely cool character progressions, I just found it a little off-putting at times, like the game was trying to make me feel like such a powerful hero that having people around me just made them the best of the best.

That's something that wore on me the further I got in this series, the constant hero worship of Shepard got to be too much for me by ME3. Granted, given the stuff they've accomplished it makes sense people would be in awe of Shepard, but I wasn't interested in these games to become Space Jesus, just see the world and hang out with cool characters, and I think games already indulge a bit too much in power fantasies as it is so it would be nice if the Cult of Shepard (ironic that Citadel deliberately played into that) was toned down a bit.

I'm not familiar with Mordin or Legion's replacements, but Wrex's brother standing in for him severely changed the tone of all the Tuchanka scenes.

I think the Tuchanka plot is solid enough that it works either way (although I haven't seen it with Not-Mordin so maybe that could contribute) but I consider it a step down simply due to the fact that Wreav is not as interesting a character as Wrex is. That doesn't mean he isn't interesting at all, the fact that he's a hardcore traditionalist works dramatically given the choices in front of you, but there's just going to be more going on with Wrex due to your background with him that makes it work better. All the "replacement" characters are just that, replacements so that you can still move through the plot even if you couldn't figure out how to save Wrex in ME1 or get everyone throught the Suicide Mission alive in ME2. No one looks at those scenes on Tuchanka or Rannoch and says "Yeah these work just as well without the main characters."
 
Last edited:

s_mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,802
Birmingham, UK
I hold a particular hate for this game. I can't think of another example of anything, in any media, that has killed me on a franchise as much as ME3.

I loved ME 1+2, and was invested in the universe - reading the books and graphic novels, etc. All of that died after ME3 ended. It wasn't just that the endings shattered the illusion of your choices over the series making a difference and amounted to pick a colour, but that all endings utterly buttfucked the universe that they'd built up over the course of the three games. Whatever way you cut it, the universe that I'd become invested in was effectively dead, and I ceased being interested in it.

I've never played Andromeda, but having it sidestep the mess that ME3 made rather than addressing its consequences was one of the reasons I had no interest in it. That it was decidedly subpar at launch just sealed my lack of interest.
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
I thought ME3 was stellar apart from how the Prothean character was locked behind DLC. I liked the conclusions to a lot of the side stories, like the Genophage cure.

The ending could have been much better, but as a big fan of the series I was kind of OK with the blue one. The series kinda jumped the shark anyway when ME2 made the Reapers dumb, took focus away from the original team, and treated Wrex's demise as canon. That was some garbage.
 

Ganransu

Member
Nov 21, 2017
1,270
I couldn't stand how that kid was the most important part of the entire story. I couldn't feel a thing for his death because it was so forced. It's the press F to pay respect of Mass Effect.

Since he was forced upon us so early in the game, I have to say the entire story was pretty much ruined for me, no hyperbole.
 
OP
OP
SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,875
São Paulo - Brazil
I hold a particular hate for this game. I can't think of another example of anything, in any media, that has killed me on a franchise as much as ME3.

I loved ME 1+2, and was invested in the universe - reading the books and graphic novels, etc. All of that died after ME3 ended. It wasn't just that the endings shattered the illusion of your choices over the series making a difference and amounted to pick a colour, but that all endings utterly buttfucked the universe that they'd built up over the course of the three games. Whatever way you cut it, the universe that I'd become invested in was effectively dead, and I ceased being interested in it.

I've never played Andromeda, but having it sidestep the mess that ME3 made rather than addressing its consequences was one of the reasons I had no interest in it. That it was decidedly subpar at launch just sealed my lack of interest.

Well, at least some good came out of it!
 

Ultra

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,650
At launch, the disappointment I had couldn't be said enough. But really I like the game quite a lot. Especially with some mods [the one where Citadel DLC starts as an "epilogue" with the lore alterations/ no upcoming reaper war mentions- the expanded galaxy mod and MERecalib are good too, although a pain in the ass to get working properly.
 

Ceadeus

Banned
Jan 11, 2018
600
EA is like cancer for the gaming industry. They can make everything worse day after day, project after project. Please EA, you may fuck off, thank you.
 

Dankir

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,513
Eh I really like it. The extended ending made it up for me.

Biggest no no for me was not being able to import my Shepard model from day 1.
 

Mr. Keith

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,945
I've been thinking about Mass Effect a lot after Giant Bomb started their play-through of Mass Effect 2. There's a pretty big void where a great space opera game should be.

I look back at some of Mass Effect 3 very fondly but all of the major plot points I didn't get to see because it was stripped out for DLC makes me pretty bitter. A game that already felt shallow leaving out a gigantic character like Javik is insane to me.

The ending didn't even bother me that much, all the shortcomings around the edges made me not care anymore.