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Deleted member 23212

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,225
In the debates yesterday, there was a lot of discussion about foreign policy, and a lot of accusations made. Essentially, we got an "I know you are but what am I" accusing each other of being Russian and Chinese puppets. However, what worried me is the part where they were discussing influencing of elections, and named three countries in particular: Russia, Iran and China. These are evidently countries that the United States sees as a threat to their economic interests, and Biden mentioned wanting to "make them pay". What does he mean by that? What price should they pay? It sounds like warmongering speech, and that worries me.
 

SRG01

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,029
One of the biggest ones from the Obama era was TPP. It was meant to be an economic zone meant to challenge China in East and Southeast Asia.

Trump has squandered that containment strategy, so it might be too late to implement it properly.
 

shnurgleton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,864
Boston
what? no. we're not going to "charge" them. sanctions on russia seem reasonable, but that is generally reasonable regardless because they are murdering LGBTQ+ folks. Iran? We should probably just reinstitute the nuclear deal. China? UN sanctions for their genocide of Uighurs and muslims.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,084
One of the biggest ones from the Obama era was TPP. It was meant to be an economic zone meant to challenge China in East and Southeast Asia.

Trump has squandered that containment strategy, so it might be too late to implement it properly.
yep we need to isolate them economically. The TPP would've helped immenesely this is why Biden was saying with the EU Etc, Also have American companies start divesting and not having to hand over precious IP to china to manufacture there.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
what? no. we're not going to "charge" them. sanctions on russia seem reasonable, but that is generally reasonable regardless because they are murdering LGBTQ+ folks. Iran? We should probably just reinstitute the nuclear deal. China? UN sanctions for their genocide of Uighurs and muslims.
Sanctions just hurt the poor and most vulnerable members of the country 99% of the time
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,390
K. What is a better response to human rights violations?

Every time the US gets involved in the human rights of other countries it's almost always been a disaster, and that includes sanctions. Honestly, the best thing we could do is provide respite for refugees who want to come to our country.
 

Beignet

alt account
Banned
Aug 1, 2020
2,638
One of the biggest ones from the Obama era was TPP. It was meant to be an economic zone meant to challenge China in East and Southeast Asia.

Trump has squandered that containment strategy, so it might be too late to implement it properly.
yep we need to isolate them economically. The TPP would've helped immenesely this is why Biden was saying with the EU Etc, Also have American companies start divesting and not having to hand over precious IP to china to manufacture there.
The TPP was horrendous policy and its been bizarre seeing the internet's opinion on it do a complete 180 just because Trump got us out of it. The problem is that Trump provided no alternative to it besides a fucking trade war.
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,045
No price. the US meddle in elections too.
It's rhetorical in the debate for domestic consumption. The actual price is a return to status quo pre Trump which is basically the US foreign policy not being subverted by Putin.
Probably more consusus building with the Europeans and less space for Putin for fuckery.
 

Azuran

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,563
What "price" has the US paid for decades of interference on foreign affairs and violent interventions that had lead to countless deaths?

It's rich hearing this stuff coming from him which goes to show Biden is still the same neoliberal at heart if he's proposing nonsense like this. Why isn't he asking the same thing about Saudi Arabia and all those other countries that America actually likes?
 

Deleted member 37235

Guest
Sanctions are definitely not bloodless and idea that they're a "humanitarian" makes about as much moral sense as the notion that killing someone by depriving them of food and medicine is somehow more "humane" than just blowing them up.
 

GalaxyDive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,736
How do you isolate China economically?
The problem is, a lot of the damage has already been done over the last ~25 years. You can still actually collaborate with other countries again to do things like try hold them to trade standards, but China's a powerhouse because the west has long since leveraged their expertise and IP in the name of cheap labor and access to their market. Trying to apply real economic pressure would also have huge costs otherwise, especially if China were to retaliate by doing stuff like choking off the rest of the world's rare earth metal supply.
 
Mar 10, 2018
8,772
Yeah it was concerning hearing him say this, especially in regards to Iran. Next thing you know the Right will start pushing the same "hawk" narrative that they did with Hillary.

EDIT: but it's obviously too late for anything like that to do much damage, of course.
 

Zip

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,038
How do you isolate China economically?

I don't think it's possible with any real speed. It would have to be over time with things like the economic alliance Obama planned, and sanctions and/or laws encouraging companies to divest from the country over time.

It is overdue though for how dependent countries have become on China.
 

Pwnz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,279
Places
China just needs revised trade agreements and removal of tariffs. We should probably also apologize for Trump's racist and xenophobic behavior as an act of good faith.

Russia is a bit more complicated .

Hi all - I posted something out of anger. I'm losing my Dad because he can't get treatment for pancreatic cancer. That anger has clouded my mind and I posted some hot take garbage. I apologize.
 
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Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
China just needs revised trade agreements and removal of tariffs.

Russia is a bit more complicated . They fucked with our sovereignty. Fund the fuck out of NATO, create an international collaboration of anti-election interference to protect elections, and sanction the fuck out of Russia. Bleed them dry. They're poor, fuck em.
Yeah they're already poor. You're just gonna cause more deaths of their citizens. Great idea. Yikes.

We've fucked with Russia's sovereignty multiple times even before Putin. Bill Clinton paved the way for an authoritarian executive in Russia.
What about targeted sanctions? Is the Magnitsky Act "unreasonable"?
Sanctions targeted towards individuals is actually reasonable if a bit hypocritical coming from the US. Most people talk about sanctions at a macro level though.
 

KarmaCow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,191
China just needs revised trade agreements and removal of tariffs.

Russia is a bit more complicated . They fucked with our sovereignty. Fund the fuck out of NATO, create an international collaboration of anti-election interference to protect elections, and sanction the fuck out of Russia. Bleed them dry. They're poor, fuck em.

Unless there are very targeted sanctions on individual people, the only people affected by sanctions to "bleed them dry" are the citizens who are already suffering under Putin.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,269
Every time the US gets involved in the human rights of other countries it's almost always been a disaster, and that includes sanctions. Honestly, the best thing we could do is provide respite for refugees who want to come to our country.
Would you have opposed sanctions against Apartheid South Africa on the same grounds?
 

Darren Lamb

Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,836
What was wrong with it?

This goes through some of it. The investor-state dispute settlement portion was why I personally didn't want us to agree to the partnership as written.

www.vox.com

The Trans-Pacific Partnership, explained

The Trans-Pacific Partnership is a pending trade agreement among countries bordering the Pacific Ocean, including the United States, Japan, Vietnam, Australia, and Chile. What is the Trans-Pacific...
 

Pwnz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,279
Places
Unless there are very targeted sanctions on individual people, the only people affected by sanctions to "bleed them dry" are the citizens who are already suffering under Putin.

While that's unfortunate for the Russian people, their nation is the aggressor and is impacting democracy globally. I'm not an ambassador or international political leader, that's beyond me. If there's a way you can support both, do it, but ultimately if they are inextricable it's unfortunate collateral damage.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
While that's unfortunate for the Russian people, their nation is the aggressor and is impacting democracy globally. I'm not an ambassador or international political leader, that's beyond me. If there's a way you can support both, do it, but ultimately if they are inextricable it's unfortunate collateral damage.
Our nation is an aggressor that opposes democracy globally. Do our citizens deserve to die in the millions because of it?
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,084
This goes through some of it. The investor-state dispute settlement portion was why I personally didn't want us to agree to the partnership as written.

www.vox.com

The Trans-Pacific Partnership, explained

The Trans-Pacific Partnership is a pending trade agreement among countries bordering the Pacific Ocean, including the United States, Japan, Vietnam, Australia, and Chile. What is the Trans-Pacific...
Ah I see how that could backfire, a shit load of it actually was very good but that def is language that needs to change.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
Also have American companies start divesting and not having to hand over precious IP to china to manufacture there.

Good luck convincing Apple not to manufacture their devices in China. You'd need to subsidise them heavily for them to even consider the notion and it'd probably still be cheaper for Apple to simply buy off enough politicians to veto the idea rather than pay more to manufacture outside of China.
 

PeskyToaster

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,318
I think shoring up our alliances in the regions is a good start. Russia is extremely afraid of the countries surrounding it joining NATO and I don't think we should be afraid to poke that bear. I think Putin needs to appear tough and if we can make him seem powerless then he will lose domestic support. For China, they require the US to fuel their economic growth at the moment but I'd be curious to see if we could reduce our reliance on Chinese manufacturing by looking elsewhere. There are emerging economies all over the world that could be partnered with and would be more amendable than China.

When it comes to sanctions, I think it makes more sense to go after the money of powerful people than the products that normal people depend on but I'm no expert on the effectiveness of sanctions.
 

kambaybolongo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,108
While that's unfortunate for the Russian people, their nation is the aggressor and is impacting democracy globally. I'm not an ambassador or international political leader, that's beyond me. If there's a way you can support both, do it, but ultimately if they are inextricable it's unfortunate collateral damage.
This is nationalistic garbage
 

Nola

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
8,184
One of the biggest ones from the Obama era was TPP. It was meant to be an economic zone meant to challenge China in East and Southeast Asia.

Trump has squandered that containment strategy, so it might be too late to implement it properly.
People really struggle with seeing how trade deals are smart strategic tools.

I get it to an extent, as they are often vessels for entrenched businesses to exploit and solidify asymmetric dynamics and the labor side is often left to the wayside, but the response was not to abandon them, but to recognize where the problems are and demand they be adjusted.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,084
Good luck convincing Apple not to manufacture their devices in China. You'd need to subsidise them heavily for them to even consider the notion and it'd probably still be cheaper for Apple to simply buy off enough politicians to veto the idea rather than pay more to manufacture outside of China.
they already have been moving to India Certain manufacturing already.
 

Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,736
I'm not necessarily sure anything specific needs to done due to the elections other than actual investigations and charges.

Like, Russia is not going to have fun with an America that gives a shit again, and Iran feels like a more complicated situation anyways. China is super complicated to begin with, so other than working with other powers to stymie their interference doing a broad hit for the interference seems unlikely.

What Biden SHOULD do is invest heavily in election infrastructure and social media laws to ensure its much harder to interfere in the future.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,084
People really struggle with seeing how trade deals are smart strategic tools.

I get it to an extent, as they are often vessels for entrenched businesses to exploit and solidify asymmetric dynamics and the labor side is often left to the wayside, but the response was not to abandon them, but to recognize where the problems are and demand they be adjusted.
Yeah and seeing how coronavirus wrecked us and all our manufacturing is mainly in china, having these deals help diversify our market and protect it more, we are in a global economy and to deny that is crazy. More partners we have the more economic power we wield.
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,045
Good luck convincing Apple not to manufacture their devices in China. You'd need to subsidise them heavily for them to even consider the notion and it'd probably still be cheaper for Apple to simply buy off enough politicians to veto the idea rather than pay more to manufacture outside of China.

Apple is infact now manufacturing in Vietnam as well, i think the shift will happen, but not overnight. This just came up on my reading list recently.
www.bloomberg.com

Apple’s Shifting Supply Chain Creates Boomtowns in Rural Vietnam

Not long ago Vietnam’s Bac Giang province was one of the nation’s poorest regions, known for producing rice, lychees and poultry dubbed “running chicken.” That was before the global tech supply chain shifted its way.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,269
Ah I see how that could backfire, a shit load of it actually was very good but that def is language that needs to change.
I like the idea of a trans-Pacific economic zone in response to China's economic influence in principle, but yeah, the specifics of the TPP were troublesome.
 

Azuran

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,563
While that's unfortunate for the Russian people, their nation is the aggressor and is impacting democracy globally. I'm not an ambassador or international political leader, that's beyond me. If there's a way you can support both, do it, but ultimately if they are inextricable it's unfortunate collateral damage.

You can literally say the same thing about America and they have been doing it a lot longer and more successfully too. But oh boy, they get hit a couple of times and suddenly it's fine if innocent people in another country suffer and die in their search for non-existant justice? Get real

So how many Americans would need to die in your eyes for their decades of interference on other nations for the past 70 years if other countries somehow did the same? After all it's unfortunate collateral damage just for you if that's what it takes to get rid of the biggest threat to sovereignty and democracy in this world.
 

Pwnz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,279
Places
So how many Americans would need to died in your eyes for their decades of interference on other nations for the past 70 years? After all it's unfortunate collateral damage just for you if that's what it takes to get rid of the biggest thread to sovereignty in this world.

The US has done a lot of harm in the past, I'm not defending that and it's kind of whataboutism. I'm talking about this specific issue.
 
Nov 19, 2019
10,231
Hands up in here who thinks the USA has not tried to influence any elections around the world.....
On that point, I expect the retaliation to match.

Imagine if the US had to 'pay' for meddling in foreign governments and overthrowing democracies

One can argue that we did, in 2016. I remember seeing connections drawn toward the US support of the color revolutions of eastern Europe and Putin's meddling against Hillary.
 
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Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,045
The United States is not in the business of protecting democracies. I sincerely hope you are trolling here. Just recently we tried to stage a coup in Venezuela.
That may be true but considering the alternatives US sticking up for democracies is actually pretty palatable to a lot of countries under threat from China or Russia

One of the sad ironies of a multipolar world is you miss what you had.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
The US has done a lot of harm in the past, I'm not defending that and it's kind of whataboutism. I'm talking about this specific issue.
In the past? We're best friends with Saudi Arabia rn, run by a monarchy who are currently conducting a genocide in Yemen.

Pointing out that you're being hypocritical in your bloodlust ain't a whataboutism.