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Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
It is ABSOLUTELY FINE to care about sales. If I really enjoy a platform, game, series, or whatever, then obviously I am happy if if does well and sells a lot because it then means I'LL GET MORE OF IT.

It seems ever since Phil Spencer said "stop caring about sales", people on this website are going out of their way to peddle this "as a consumer why should I care" bullshit every time sales numbers are mentioned. Even in sales threads!

By caring about sales you are not automatically a corporate shill or trying to be friends with the corporation. You just want more good shit.

Of course, it can be taken too far (see: console wars) but there is absolutely no harm in being enthusiastic about sales.

Please stop the "as a consumer" posts regarding sales.

"Being happy that a game you like is getting good sales and thus a chance for a sequel" is like 2% of all sales-related posts. The other 98% is either defending bad games because they sell well, or shitting on games they don't like for not selling well. It lends an air of legitimacy and even maturity to people's position over what is essentially personal opinions on videogames, without needing to actually argue for their qualities or lack thereof; it's a cop-out and the lowest hanging fruit in the tree. There are very, very few times where using sales to settle an argument is not disingenuous; most people using sales in an argument are doing it entirely for the same old "sales -> popularity -> quality" fallacious correlation, and when this fallacy is pointed out, they accuse whoever did it of being culturally elitist.

(there is also less correlation between sales and viability than people posit. For one, they almost never correct for games' budgets until they are pointed out to them, conveniently forgetting indie and lower budget games become profitable much more easily than AAA games.)
 

Arex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,513
Indonesia
Yeah I can care about anything I want to care about thank you very much.

Don't go in sales thread telling people "as a customer" I can't care about sales or some shit just because someone said so.

Anyway, I do care about sales because it usually correlates to developer's health and ability to continue doing their thing.
 

Deleted member 224

Oct 25, 2017
5,629
This is clearly a stealth console wars thread after OP tried to say Sony made more money than MS in the UK Black Friday thread.
 

DarkDetective

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,906
The Netherlands
Public sales numbers are very important for other developers to see what is catching on with the market and what is not.
The games industry is in a miserable shape, compared to the music, film, and TV industries, when it comes to public market data.
Market democratisation - which includes sales data that is publicly available - is better for the industry as a whole, and that, in turn, is better for the consumer.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,893
Yeah, I care on multiple levels. Not only do I want more of the things I love (so I want them to be economically viable), but I also want to see the companies that make the games I love prosper.
 

Tunichtgut

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,294
Germany
I only wanna know if the game i liked sold enough, so we get a sequel, but i never cared how much it exactly sells, cause i dont get anything from that.
 

Oleander

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,590
My main issue with a reverence to sales monitoring is that we may wind up in a situation like with film, where oftentimes the measure of success is tied to box office earnings rather than the creative qualities of the film, or its entertainment value. Sales are an important aspect of any industry, as every publisher has to keep the lights on, but they are a corporate concern primarily, and only trickle down so far as informing the expansion of franchises and what series we get more games in.
 

Kyrios

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,691
Anyway, I do care about sales because it usually correlates to developer's health and ability to continue doing their thing.

This is all I care about as far as sales are concerned. Just want said sales to be good enough to justify a sequel or similar game that I enjoy playing in the future, that's it.
 

Deleted member 29682

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
12,290
I think talking about sales for games that are smaller or riskier is understandable. But if someone is congratulating a massively successful product for selling another X million, then I'm not going to be too convinced that they're just concerned about the franchise's health.
 

Avantgarde

Member
Oct 27, 2017
486
It is ABSOLUTELY FINE to care about sales.
I very much agree. I have always been as big a fan of the underlying industry (games, film, illustrated books, music) as I am a fan of the final products. I am that kind of guy who is excited to watch the "making of" documentary on the bonus dvd of a concert boxset to see how the creatives and the engineers set up the sound and the stage. To me, watching the sales numbers, the big acquisitions, the marketing campaigns, all sorts of related numbers and the public reaction to business strategies is integral part of the hobby itself, I don't see a reason to separate buyer me from industry hobbist me. I do the same with other hobbies, like computers and photography for instance, I don't just buy a camera and go shooting and don't care about anything related until it breaks. I keep reading every bit of tech/business/sales news, including other camera brands that I don't own. It's a hobby like any other and it is benign.

As for engaging in forum debates with people who openly hate corporations, use terms such as 'marketing' and 'public relations' like they have inherent negative connotations, or belittle people who are genuinely interested in statistics and the business model behind products, I usually avoid these discussions unless I have something positive to add. The threads about industry statistics and the occasional insights from industry insiders are among my biggest draws to a forum like this.
 

Aaron D.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,337
But let's be real, on this forum a major reason why people care about sales is not because they care about getting sequels. It's because they want their favourite company to 'win'.

Yeah, it feels like sales thread warriors are no different than GOTY thread warriors.

I mean I get it, we all want our team to win. But context matters.

No one should be deprived of enjoying success for media they enjoy. But the problem surfaces when people take it too far and turn into slobbering fanatics.

Last year's GoW vs. RDR2 battles in the annual GOTY thread were a gd embarrassment. Though highly entertaining from an outsider's popcorn perspective, it went a long way to expose the destructive nature of fanboy shilling and how it lowers the quality of discourse on Era.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,420
The Spencer statement was specifically about profit & loss, which I took to mean "Stop armchair analyzing Game Pass - we know what we're doing."
 

HBK

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,992
"Being happy that a game you like is getting good sales and thus a chance for a sequel" is like 2% of all sales-related posts. The other 98% is either defending bad games because they sell well, or shitting on games they don't like for not selling well. It lends an air of legitimacy and even maturity to people's position over what is essentially personal opinions on videogames, without needing to actually argue for their qualities or lack thereof; it's a cop-out and the lowest hanging fruit in the tree. There are very, very few times where using sales to settle an argument is not disingenuous; most people using sales in an argument are doing it entirely for the same old "sales -> popularity -> quality" fallacious correlation, and when this fallacy is pointed out, they accuse whoever did it of being culturally elitist.

(there is also less correlation between sales and viability than people posit. For one, they almost never correct for games' budgets until they are pointed out to them, conveniently forgetting indie and lower budget games become profitable much more easily than AAA games.)
Great post.

Also, even if good sales could ensure a sequel, there's little guarantee the sequel would be good.

There's really little correlation between perceived quality and game sales. Look at the number of fan-favorites getting meh sales, or high profile games getting poor reception with a fair share of the public despite being super "successful".

I'm always happy if a game I enjoy nets good money for their developers, but besides that, sales are hardly relevant to my games enjoyment, and I suspect it's the same for a very large majority of players.
 

Deleted member 224

Oct 25, 2017
5,629

Teeth

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,942
And I'm sure I could make the exact same argument on those forums. People who argue about Nike sales probably won't go argue about Ford sales, and vice-versa.

In the end it's just basic hooligan behavior, "argument" battles which are not substantiated by legitimate concern.


I honestly feel like people are talking past each other here.

"Caring about" sales can mean a lot of things. It can mean cheering good sales. It can mean cheering bad sales. It can also mean that one takes the time to analyze, discuss, think, and yeah hypothesize and postulate (due to limited information) about the business side of the industry.

When people talk about the sales of a game/platform/genre or whatever, there are a lot of the more intelligent posters here and on the previous board that actually knew a decent amount about this stuff. And arguing about "the decimal points" is often a way to suss out the right from the wrong postulations.

Wanting to know about sales and revenue and the business side is wanting to know about these things get made, similarly to wanting to know about how engines are developed or characters are modeled with zbrush.

I mean, I very much do care about how developers are getting paid by subscription models. I very much care about the sales of something like Google Stadia, as it points to consumer interest. Do I care if Stadia sold 5M or 6M? No. Do I care if it sold 200k or 80M in a year? Absolutely, as it has a direct impact on where the industry is going. "As a consumer" one might want to care about these things. Discussing them on a forum and trying to suss out the sales of the platform off of a Google quarterly earnings report is sort of the only way bystanders can.
 

Riskbreaker

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,686
You're not a shareholder. Its one thing to be happy a game you enjoy is selling well, its another to turn into a cheerleader for a plastic box. Don't worry sony wont stop making the playstation even if they get a slight sales reduction for a month
Pretty much this, and it applies to so much, from sports to video games.

You shouting about sales on a web forum don't lead to more games being made or anything. Just comes across as shilling.
 

Deleted member 29682

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
12,290
I do remember the whole Fortnite crossplay fiasco, where a few "enthusiastic" users were arguing whether the added benefit to players was worth the potential of financial risk to platform holders. In hindsight that was pretty transparent.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid

Wait, it gets worse. On closer read, DrDeckard was calling out the absurdity of caring about exactly how much profit MS was making because of selling consoles at a discounted price. He was not even calling out worring about sales, he was pointing out worring about the profit margins of fucking Microsoft Corporation.
 

Kromeo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,904
I care up to the point of series I like continuing to be made but a lot of Nintendo and Sony first party sales threads in particular do come across as cheerleading. Which is harmless in the end I guess as long as it doesn't descend into straight up platform trolling
 
Feb 26, 2018
2,753
There are a lot of people who are trying to shut down discussion around subscription services, cloud streaming, retail/digital splits, console sales, microtransactions, lootboxes, lack of crossplay and so on the last couple years. Like yeah why talk about all that stuff while you can do this:
e7a.jpg
 

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
OP doesn't mention the context behind the latest kerfluffle.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with speculating about the sales of games or hardware.

Expressing concern about The profits and losses of the 3rd biggest company in the world will always look weird. It could read like concern trolling and the OP omits that context.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
but OP made this thread as a reaction to being called out in a sales thread

He wasn't even being called out himself, and as I pointed out the point of contention was console profit margins, not even sales. It was also disingenuous to paint the situation as "I care about my favorite games getting sequels" to gain the moral high ground. Like, sure, I concede cheering for a game or console you like getting good sales is the one legitimate case of caring about sales. How often do people criticise this cheering with "we should not care"? Is it really that frequent that you need to make a thread about it rather than telling them off?

We all know what's happening here. Let's not play dumb.
 

HBK

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,992
I mean, I very much do care about how developers are getting paid by subscription models. I very much care about the sales of something like Google Stadia, as it points to consumer interest. Do I care if Stadia sold 5M or 6M? No. Do I care if it sold 200k or 80M in a year? Absolutely, as it has a direct impact on where the industry is going. "As a consumer" one might want to care about these things.
I agree (emphasis on the bolded). It's just that the original context was related to hypothetical money loss about BF sales. That's your textbook decimal example.
 

MickZan

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,404
I don't know. Gaming is my hobby and not only the play part. I love the industry and am intrigued by decisions and partnerships made. It's a bit like politics. Mr Spencer telling me to basicly 'only play the games' is weird. Like he doesn't understand there's lots of people who spend time on boards discussing games and corporate decisions. If Microsoft is spending loads of cash and making losses on penetrating game pass into the market, it's an interesting topic to talk about, especially since it might form the future of how we play games. Saying we should focus on playing games and not worry about that stuff feels like telling a US citizen to stop worrying about Trump and just live your life. A weird (and rare) misstep by Phil in my opinion.
 

Teeth

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,942
I agree (emphasis on the bolded). It's just that the original context was related to hypothetical money loss about BF sales. That's your textbook decimal example.

I mean...sort of. If you follow up who said that comment, and then their response, it came from a developer.

"As a developer" I care about these things. Not because I care about how good MS's bottom line is, because I care about what's driving MS's bottom line. Because that determines how MS does business.
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,895
Prob because a lot of people who obsess over sales are insufferable fanboys.
Its this.

Too many people are way too invested in these boxes and get really happy when the one they don't support fails.

And they often use sales to justify their console wars bullshit.

Buuuuut, it is still good to know about sales for all the reasons the OP pointed out. He shouldn't stop being in it because of console warriors because they can dumb up anything.
 

Deleted member 224

Oct 25, 2017
5,629
Wait, it gets worse. On closer read, DrDeckard was calling out the absurdity of caring about exactly how much profit MS was making because of selling consoles at a discounted price. He was not even calling out worring about sales, he was pointing out worring about the profit margins of fucking Microsoft Corporation.
Yeah, it's kind of shitty on OPs part to label this as "caring about developer health" or whatever when they really just got called out for clear console war rhetoric in another thread.
 

MonsterMech

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,409
Simply "caring" about sales is fine. Obviously you want your favorite things to be successful so you get more of them.

unfortunately most of the talk of sales around here goes well beyond that and becomes more about console wars than anything else.

Like the OP making up quotes and straw men to attack people just being happy with the things they like.

You can avoid it and try to veil it as much as you want but it's transparent console wars as far as I can see.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
We continue to allow sales discussions on Era, and the reporting system is available to report instances of system warring. This thread is closed to further replies.
 
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