Ah the good old days, when the manual was essentially a mini rulebook.
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Why devs consider Baldur’s Gate 3 anomaly, not new standard for RPG genre
- Thread starter Era of not Yakuza
- Start date
Ah the good old days, when the manual was essentially a mini rulebook.
Yeah, that's really why people are reacting negatively. It's scolding players instead of sending a message to publishers to be realistic about what it takes to make this sort of game.
There are some very ambitious indie CRPGs that came in the wake of Baldur's Gate 2... and they were well-received as long as they were decent overall, regardless of their ability to match BG2's scale. I feel like players get this stuff. Hell, the scale of the recent Pathfinder games is very much in line with BG2.
With a game like Dragon Age 1 getting a bit of heat from BG2 fans, scale was rarely the thing anyone brought up. It was simply understood that an AAA game will never be that. The complaints were more about the combat, the quality of the content that was there.
GTA is a good example, because while few could match Rockstar's scale and overload of content like GTA5, you had a LOT of gamers looking at smaller games like Sleeping Dogs or Saints Row 2 before that, and questioning why Rockstar couldn't match the best features of those games with their much smaller budgets.
It's just not a particularly good angle on this topic imo.
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Well, people are going to demand those things from Obsidian, not because of BG3, but because they're now owned by the second largest company in the world. And they're making games that lean toward the Bethesda style now, so thats who they'll be measured against.
I really don't understand how so many users are failing at some basic empathy + reading comprehension tests in this thread WRT the sentiments expressed by the tweets in the OP and especially after seeing the video that Crossing Eden posted. It does not reek of jealousy or putting down Larian/BG3 at all to me, I can totally understand the concerns over toxic fans and trolls going after studios in Steam review sections because the new Pathfinder or Obsidian game doesn't have the levels of reactivity BG3 does. This site tends to be more reasonable than most but that's due to the strong moderation, its like some of ya'll never poke your heads out of this site and see the kind of shit flinging devs have to deal with on the reg from the rest of the internet. The BG3 reactivity thing is one more to add to the pile for potential ammunition from these types of "gamers".
I'm not pointing fingers at specific individuals but it feels like there's an element of not examining one's own biases WRT how games do adjust expectations for other games in like genres, be it open world, crpgs, action games etc. Did we suddenly forget how many times BOTW was brought up in convo in however many threads as a cudgel towards other open world games? And I've been somewhat guilty of this myself, OW games esp Ubi formula ones don't cut it anymore, I need something smaller and/or more hand crafted with less busywork and padding, but that's also shifting tastes in general as I get older. But no, I do not expect the industry at large to suddenly make TOTK tier OW games because of the nightmare QA logistics involved with coding those kind of physics interactions across such a huge game, its really a miracle of engineering something like that works as well as it does and on Switch hardware to boot!
Ultimately we're not talking about level headed takes regarding these games, these are from the Steam review crowd where review bombing is a regular thing and can drastically affect sales of new game releases. At least Valve has been trying to curb that kind of thing but I'm not sure how effective those changes have been. While many here have reasonable expectations and understand context as it applies to the shaky and volatile nature of game dev where nothing is a guaranteed success, I don't think that's the case at large and these devs have the experience dealing with these often fickle fan bases and consumers of prior projects to understand that better than us. So ya know, maybe we should listen better rather than the kneejerk "why u so mad?"
I'm not pointing fingers at specific individuals but it feels like there's an element of not examining one's own biases WRT how games do adjust expectations for other games in like genres, be it open world, crpgs, action games etc. Did we suddenly forget how many times BOTW was brought up in convo in however many threads as a cudgel towards other open world games? And I've been somewhat guilty of this myself, OW games esp Ubi formula ones don't cut it anymore, I need something smaller and/or more hand crafted with less busywork and padding, but that's also shifting tastes in general as I get older. But no, I do not expect the industry at large to suddenly make TOTK tier OW games because of the nightmare QA logistics involved with coding those kind of physics interactions across such a huge game, its really a miracle of engineering something like that works as well as it does and on Switch hardware to boot!
Ultimately we're not talking about level headed takes regarding these games, these are from the Steam review crowd where review bombing is a regular thing and can drastically affect sales of new game releases. At least Valve has been trying to curb that kind of thing but I'm not sure how effective those changes have been. While many here have reasonable expectations and understand context as it applies to the shaky and volatile nature of game dev where nothing is a guaranteed success, I don't think that's the case at large and these devs have the experience dealing with these often fickle fan bases and consumers of prior projects to understand that better than us. So ya know, maybe we should listen better rather than the kneejerk "why u so mad?"
I'm just not sure what we're supposed to be doing beyond saying... yeah, toxic people suck? It's not Larian's fault and we certainly shouldn't be asking developers to aim lower with their ambitions. I'm not saying that's what these developers are asking for but I just don't see what anyone can do to stop ignorant people from having ignorant takes.
Just gonna comment on this line: except the negative connotations of the word "cudgel", what you're describing is a good thing and natural in any industry.
Holding a genre to a new standard happens time and time again, its a tale as old as gaming itself.
Even if the original tweeter meant their observations in a completely complimentary manner with no insult intended, its still just a bad take that favors stagnation for no real reason I can see.
Like, if these theoretical future target small devs look at BG3 and say "hey, I wonder how close we can get to that" or even "I bet we could do it better with 1/10th of the staff and half of the time" these are unqualified good calls to action, even if they ultimately fall short. And if big devs feel like they also need to step up, all the better.
From a lack of knowledge. Because BotW main reported qualities absolutely existed way before (I'm talking decades) it was published. But gamedevs and publishers pushed those designs to the side first, then to the garbage bin.
But however it happened, customers having standards is never a bad thing. It's not like the videogame industry is bursting at the seams with an overabundance of product quality, general value, and respect for the customer.
Did some googling and the Sawyer quote in context with the Larian made BG3 is pretty relevant I think:
Oof that's gotta sting :/
Especially with Pillars II not doing well sales wise which he was project director on. I don't think its unfair to say how close he was to the franchise and the long career involved with crpgs this is more of a sore spot. I'm not saying his feelings are invalid either but damn, I'd feel a certain kind of way too.
True, but I don't fault some of them for trying to spread a message of understanding to better inform those unaware. We're in the minority for getting the realities of the volatility of this industry. Most consumers are "thanks for the game what else ya got? what have you done for me lately?" type sentiments. It probably won't move the needle but can't fault them for expressing their frustrations just the same.
Oof that's gotta sting :/
Especially with Pillars II not doing well sales wise which he was project director on. I don't think its unfair to say how close he was to the franchise and the long career involved with crpgs this is more of a sore spot. I'm not saying his feelings are invalid either but damn, I'd feel a certain kind of way too.
True, but I don't fault some of them for trying to spread a message of understanding to better inform those unaware. We're in the minority for getting the realities of the volatility of this industry. Most consumers are "thanks for the game what else ya got? what have you done for me lately?" type sentiments. It probably won't move the needle but can't fault them for expressing their frustrations just the same.
Big parent company = unlimited budget and scope? TIL
The whole "this thing should be as big as that thing" is as obnoxious now as it was in 2015 when angry Joe and the other chuds were using the witcher 3 to shit on properties
And where did I say "big parent company = unlimited budget and scope"? What I did say is that people's expectations for Avowed (and future Obsidian games) are going to be set by the MS acquisition and the fact that they're making a Skyrim ass looking game.
I don't have any comment on witcher 3 comparisons, I'm just baffled anyone is wasting brainspace thinking about something Angry Joe said 8 years ago.
I think that's a folly tbh. Obsidian making obsidian games with similar scopes and a bit more polish is what I expect and expecting more just because they are owned by ms is just setting expectations to fail
I used the example because it's a good example of the meta complaint of "why cant devs do x if this dev did" which we all know on this website is unhelpful and unhealthy but on the wider internet is still a topic that gets a bunch of airtime and oxygen
Not every game needs to be as long/large in scope as BG3, but it could absolutely set a new standard. That's not a decision developers make -- it's consumers' expectations and desires that set standards. If people want 150hr AAA-grade RPGs, well, then as a developer you need to adapt (or die). That's how the market works, and how it has been for gaming ever since video games continued to evolve and raise the bar further and further. That's not to say the market exclusively desires that sort of game, but if you're a AAA developer creating AAA RPGs, then that's just another new expectation you'll have to account for.
I agree its folly but its just the reality of the situation. Being part of MS invites a ton of extra pressure and scrutiny, just look at the expectations put on Arkade with Redfall.
Honestly, I don't know if many people on this website know that. Every thread here is full of similar comparisons and people using one game to attack another.
I get what they're trying to say but if people are dumb enough to expect this same standard from all dev sizes then that's on them.
*Looks at avatar*
You must be feasting with all these games lol
*Looks at avatar*
You must be feasting with all these games lol
how did I miss this thread lol.
Anyway, buying this game asap. It feels like the anti-FF16, which is what I need right now.
Anyway, buying this game asap. It feels like the anti-FF16, which is what I need right now.
Can't get enough. I am so ready to lose 300+ hours in BG3. I've stayed 100% media silent on this thing with the exception to install the alpha back when it first came out to ensure my PC was ready for it. 8 more days!
It's really funny that some people are trying to gaslight us into thinking games like this can't be made anymore lol
It's not just about budget obviously. I have a very hard time believing there's any but a small handful of devs that could make something of the same quality with the same budget and time. It's also about people, talent and managing the scope of a project from beginning to end. Super high quality games like this can still be made though, don't let people tell you otherwise.
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ERA try not to make every thread into a Final Fantasy thread challenge (impossible)
In the end for a videogame the most important will always be gameplay. They can spend time and money polishing cutscenes but people will never buy a game to watch costly cutscenes. What's Nintendo main formula with their games? Super polished gameplay.