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Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
His assessment seems pretty reasonable to me.

Why would you say it's bullshit?
I should've bolded some stuff but I was on phone and I'm lazy. I think the post is BS in the context of this thread. "People will always have a problem with a character they didn't design" is a silly thing to say. Not all character designs are (widely) criticized and even if some (aspects) are criticized, it doesn't mean the whole design is crappy or that addressing the criticism means anything to the important aspects of a character (so no, making Ann not wear skin-tight leather is not going to make her a "flat character"). And even then, not all criticism/opinions are created equal. "Ann's overly sexualized design is a cheap way to titillate the male audience of this game and doesn't fit her character arc/background/behaviour otherwise" is or can be a legitimate criticism. "Y U TAKE MY SEXY WAIFU AWAY! U PRUDE! SJW FEMINAZIS STRIKE AGAIN! THE AUTHOR WANTED IT THIS WAY, NO CRITICISM ALLOWED!" is not.

I disagree with the "well, Ann is this way because of her background that the author intended, she is provocative, deal" argument as well. Ann's design is not good both in terms of in-game logic (which has already been pointed out pretty well in many posts today, so I'm not gonna repeat it) and in terms of what the game's developers have publicly stated. They wanted to make these characters sexy DESPITE anything related to their person, DESPITE any logic to where and when these attires are worn. So the in-universe logic is flawed and the authorial intent is problematic..

Plus even if there was a story reason for Ann to dress sexy, "I'll make her dress sexy in more or less inappropriate contexts but she'll TOTES have a reason for it" is such a tired concept and it still has roots in these (usually) male directors/leads wanting to sexualize women. Just because it has an in-game/in-story explanation doesn't make it problem-free.

And this idea that asking for women to not be overly sexualized & objectified through flimsy reasoning (and using less of other problematic aspects of women in fiction) will lead to flat characters with nothing interesting going on about them is dumb as well.

1) No one is saying that no female character can ever be sexy or wear sexy clothing. Generally, people just want more variety (so not every Japanese game with women/young underage girls in it needs that beach/bathhouse scenario where women can be glad in tiny bikinis & not every female warrior wears a tight top & short skirt + of course there's the issue of lack of body variety), and people want the sexy stuff to make some modicum of sense.

A contemporary game where the story takes the characters into a fancy party (see: Uncharted 4 and Nadine at that one party that Drake crashes to steal shit)? It's ok to have the women dress up in sexier clothing because in real-life context a lot of women do like to dress up on those kinds of occasions. Though even then, if there are more than one woman at the party, you can showcase some variety because women can think different looks are sexy/makes them look good, not everyone wants to draw a ton of attention to their body shape and not everyone wears the tightest, most revealing evening gown possible.

A woman fighting for the survival of mankind in a post-apocalyptic situation, against nightmareish, deadly monsters? Maybe that's not the best situation to wear a tank-top & miniest skirt ever in and maybe don't make up dumb-as-all-fuck reasons for why their half-naked attire is actually the most powerful armor in-game. Put them in some clothing/armor that actually fits the fucking context/situation/their profession. There is some room for "rule of cool" & stylistic flourish, but that doesn't have to mean all logic flies out the window and women go fight the evil god that will bring ruin to all humankind half-naked & in high heels. Of course, realistically speaking no amount of armor will protect against a dragon breathing insta-skinmelting hot fire at you but still, at least having proper armor looks more fit for the situation.

2) Asking for less problematic characters & character designs is also not going to lead to flat characters. Asking for the removal of or more consideration when including possibly problematic aspects is not the same as asking for flawless, dull, flat characters. If removing sexy clothing from a female character will make her a flat, dull character, she wasn't much of a one before that. They can still make these characters flawed individuals without making all women dress in skimpy/skin-tight clothing or, to take another problematic aspect of women in fiction, not making "rape victim" such a default issue in so many female characters' stories.

So... yeah flaws don't have to be problematic in the misogynistic, sexist way, and not all problematic aspects are equal plus it can be ok to have villains/antagonists portray those problematic aspects that aren't necessarily a good look on the protagonist (i.e. it's ok for a villain to be racist if racism is a core theme in the story and that is handled in the narrative somehow, but I wouldn't make our supposed-to-be-relatable, upbeat good guy protagonist racist, at least not without treating it as a serious character flaw that needs addressing).



tl, dr: Critique of overly sexualized designs & objectifying handling of women & asking for better representation is not going to lead to flat characters if the storytellers writing these stories & characters are worth their shit. "Could her clothes/armor make some sense" is not the same as the removal of all interesting flaws & rough edges of a female character.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
I should've bolded some stuff but I was on phone and I'm lazy. I think the post is BS in the context of this thread. "People will always have a problem with a character they didn't design" is a silly thing to say. Not all character designs are (widely) criticized and even if some (aspects) are criticized, it doesn't mean the whole design is crappy or that addressing the criticism means anything to the important aspects of a character (so no, making Ann not wear skin-tight leather is not going to make her a "flat character"). And even then, not all criticism/opinions are created equal. "Ann's overly sexualized design is a cheap way to titillate the male audience of this game and doesn't fit her character arc/background/behaviour otherwise" is or can be a legitimate criticism. "Y U TAKE MY SEXY WAIFU AWAY! U PRUDE! SJW FEMINAZIS STRIKE AGAIN! THE AUTHOR WANTED IT THIS WAY, NO CRITICISM ALLOWED!" is not.

I disagree with the "well, Ann is this way because of her background that the author intended, she is provocative, deal" argument as well. Ann's design is not good both in terms of in-game logic (which has already been pointed out pretty well in many posts today, so I'm not gonna repeat it) and in terms of what the game's developers have publicly stated. They wanted to make these characters sexy DESPITE anything related to their person, DESPITE any logic to where and when these attires are worn. So the in-universe logic is flawed and the authorial intent is problematic..

Plus even if there was a story reason for Ann to dress sexy, "I'll make her dress sexy in more or less inappropriate contexts but she'll TOTES have a reason for it" is such a tired concept and it still has roots in these (usually) male directors/leads wanting to sexualize women. Just because it has an in-game/in-story explanation doesn't make it problem-free.

And this idea that asking for women to not be overly sexualized & objectified through flimsy reasoning (and using less of other problematic aspects of women in fiction) will lead to flat characters with nothing interesting going on about them is dumb as well.

1) No one is saying that no female character can ever be sexy or wear sexy clothing. Generally, people just want more variety (so not every Japanese game with women/young underage girls in it needs that beach/bathhouse scenario where women can be glad in tiny bikinis & not every female warrior wears a tight top & short skirt + of course there's the issue of lack of body variety), and people want the sexy stuff to make some modicum of sense.

A contemporary game where the story takes the characters into a fancy party (see: Uncharted 4 and Nadine at that one party that Drake crashes to steal shit)? It's ok to have the women dress up in sexier clothing because in real-life context a lot of women do like to dress up on those kinds of occasions. Though even then, if there are more than one woman at the party, you can showcase some variety because women can think different looks are sexy/makes them look good, not everyone wants to draw a ton of attention to their body shape and not everyone wears the tightest, most revealing evening gown possible.

A woman fighting for the survival of mankind in a post-apocalyptic situation, against nightmareish, deadly monsters? Maybe that's not the best situation to wear a tank-top & miniest skirt ever in and maybe don't make up dumb-as-all-fuck reasons for why their half-naked attire is actually the most powerful armor in-game. Put them in some clothing/armor that actually fits the fucking context/situation/their profession. There is some room for "rule of cool" & stylistic flourish, but that doesn't have to mean all logic flies out the window and women go fight the evil god that will bring ruin to all humankind half-naked & in high heels. Of course, realistically speaking no amount of armor will protect against a dragon breathing insta-skinmelting hot fire at you but still, at least having proper armor looks more fit for the situation.

2) Asking for less problematic characters & character designs is also not going to lead to flat characters. Asking for the removal of or more consideration when including possibly problematic aspects is not the same as asking for flawless, dull, flat characters. If removing sexy clothing from a female character will make her a flat, dull character, she wasn't much of a one before that. They can still make these characters flawed individuals without making all women dress in skimpy/skin-tight clothing or, to take another problematic aspect of women in fiction, not making "rape victim" such a default issue in so many female characters' stories.

So... yeah flaws don't have to be problematic in the misogynistic, sexist way, and not all problematic aspects are equal plus it can be ok to have villains/antagonists portray those problematic aspects that aren't necessarily a good look on the protagonist (i.e. it's ok for a villain to be racist if racism is a core theme in the story and that is handled in the narrative somehow, but I wouldn't make our supposed-to-be-relatable, upbeat good guy protagonist racist, at least not without treating it as a serious character flaw that needs addressing).



tl, dr: Critique of overly sexualized designs & objectifying handling of women & asking for better representation is not going to lead to flat characters if the storytellers writing these stories & characters are worth their shit. "Could her clothes/armor make some sense" is not the same as the removal of all interesting flaws & rough edges of a female character.

I don't know, I really feel that Shelob from Lord of The Rings was a much better character when she wasn't a spider beast and instead a hot goth girlfriend...

...God that still pisses me off.
 
Today in "Japanese Devs can't design girls unless they have huge tits" news.



That first one has the same cleavage a character in Destiny Child does, and that one was covered up a bit in the Western release.

Uff, da first pic, bruh. Dongldong, I hear da bells ringing. o_O
"Oversized weapons" - that's a weird way to misspell boobs. But, well, a firearms license seems appropriate...

So that's how they promote their stuff with pride? Nice. Well, I guess they know their target audience.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,708
Brazil
Does it matter whether the original designer is a female or male in case of sexualized character?

No. Specially because in most non indie cases the designer is just follwing a briefing and trying to fit the vision of the dudes in suits.

What does people think about somebody like Miley. Some people look her as feminist role model, but she sometimes shows up in very revealing or sexualized outfit?

Real life humans have the right to dress whatever they like and be how sexually active they want regardless of how they dress and this has nothing to do with their morals.

And i know some independent women who like to wear sexy outfit and in Asia, women always want to look beautiful. Not because they want to attract male, but it is purely for their own interest.

Yes, and those women are not vampire hunters, fighters or medieval warriors. Those women you mention wear the looks that look good WHILE doing a good job of filling the position they are in.

I think some of the viewpoint of western feminism is alien for asian culture.

Which is a good way to say that the japanese people are pretty conservative, sexist and LGBTphobic.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
I don't know, I really feel that Shelob from Lord of The Rings was a much better character when she wasn't a spider beast and instead a hot goth girlfriend...

...God that still pisses me off.
Look if Shelob the spider Queen wasn't happy with the shape of her, er, abdomen and number of limbs and felt that inside she was actually a hot goth woman, who are we to criticise her subconscious persona? It's not like the designer just went with what they thought looked... Oh.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Look if Shelob the spider Queen wasn't happy with the shape of her, er, abdomen and number of limbs and felt that inside she was actually a hot goth woman, who are we to criticise her subconscious persona? It's not like the designer just went with what they thought looked... Oh.

...Ok, extreme tangent but how long have you been a mod because this is the first time I noticed that...
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
Look if Shelob the spider Queen wasn't happy with the shape of her, er, abdomen and number of limbs and felt that inside she was actually a hot goth woman, who are we to criticise her subconscious persona? It's not like the designer just went with what they thought looked... Oh.

Who exactly are you taking the piss out of here with the first part about how she feels on the inside and her "subconscious persona?" Because to me, it looks like the countless arguments I've seen to shit on trans people.
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
Who exactly are you taking the piss out of here with the first part about how she feels on the inside and her "subconscious persona?" Because to me, it looks like the countless arguments I've seen to shit on trans people.
I think you're misreading that. The idea is that you can't use her subconscious desire as a justification for the generic sexy monster lady form because that desire was implanted in her by the designer/creator that made her, not that said desire would be illegitimate from the outset.
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
I think you're misreading that. The idea is that you can't use her subconscious desire as a justification for the generic sexy monster lady form because that desire was implanted in her by the designer/creator that made her, not that said desire would be illegitimate from the outset.

The whole "felt inside that she was really a hot goth woman" thing is literally rhetoric I've seen people use against trans people to delegitimize our identities. Where people act like people can feel like anything and identify as anything because it's all the same level of ridiculous to them.

It's something I would report if he wasn't a moderator.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Who exactly are you taking the piss out of here with the first part about how she feels on the inside and her "subconscious persona?" Because to me, it looks like the countless arguments I've seen to shit on trans people.
Er, Persona character designers? And Shelobs? Being the last two topics?

I
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
The whole "felt inside that she was really a hot goth woman" thing is literally rhetoric I've seen people use against trans people to delegitimize our identities. Where people act like people can feel like anything and identify as anything because it's all the same level of ridiculous to them.

It's something I would report if he wasn't a moderator.
If you feel that strongly you should report anyway. I honestly didn't mean it in that way
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
Er, Persona character designers? And Shelobs? Being the last two topics?

I was mocking the

I was criticising the Persona and Shelob character designers as the were the last two topics?

No, that would be the second half. I'm talking about this part :

Look if Shelob the spider Queen wasn't happy with the shape of her, er, abdomen and number of limbs and felt that inside she was actually a hot goth woman, who are we to criticise her subconscious persona?

You start talking about how the character isn't happy with her body and how she feels on the inside that she should look differently, while also throwing in subconscious persona there. Shelob changes her appearance magically yes, and it's bad for the lore, but what you're saying here is literally rhetoric that I've seen used against trans people and I'm not sure what you're trying to say here specifically about how she feels on the inside that isn't shitty.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,708
Brazil
The whole "felt inside that she was really a hot goth woman" thing is literally rhetoric I've seen people use against trans people to delegitimize our identities. Where people act like people can feel like anything and identify as anything because it's all the same level of ridiculous to them.

It's something I would report if he wasn't a moderator.

I can see where you are coming from but there is a game where they literally turned the spider into a sexy goth woman
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
If you feel that strongly you should report anyway, mods should have no special protection. I honestly didn't mean it in that way, although I can see how it
No, that would be the second half. I'm talking about this part :



You start talking about how the character isn't happy with her body and how she feels on the inside that she should look differently, while also throwing in subconscious persona there. Shelob changes her appearance magically yes, and it's bad for the lore, but what you're saying here is literally rhetoric that I've seen used against trans people and I'm not sure what you're trying to say here specifically about how she feels on the inside that isn't shitty.
My use of 'Persona' is because we were talking about Ann's costume and how her sexualised outfit does/doesn't work, it 100% wasn't a slight at trans people
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
My use of 'Persona' is because we were talking about Ann's costume and how her sexualised outfit does/doesn't work, it 100% wasn't a slight at trans people

You're ignoring the entire rest of what you said, including your analogues to dysphoria and how she feels on the inside side by side. Why did you decide to make it about how she identifies as a "hot goth woman"?
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
You're ignoring the entire rest of what you said, including your analogues to dysphoria and how she feels on the inside side by side.
This is a character design thread, I was comparing Shelobs two forms to Ann's, hence 'Persona' that's it.

Why did you decide to make it about how she identifies as a "hot goth woman"?
Because that was what the post I replied to used?
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Hey Ketkat
You're right, looking back I can see how you interpreted my post, and I apologise. It wasn't my intent to attack or insult trans people, my intention was only to draw a connection between the two characters based on Xaszatm's post. I'll choose my words more carefully in the future, so thank you for explaining to me how it can be perceived.
 

JCG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,539
It might be tangential, but I've been thinking somewhat periodically about a particular side of the issue.

How do you folks feel about criticism of sexualized designs or characters that is, in and of itself, sexist and demeaning?

Basically, I mean cases involving people who use gender-based slurs (or polite language and descriptions that are effectively equivalent to the same) in order to criticize, mock or attack a character who is being portrayed in a sexualized manner.

It doesn't invalidate the existence of the underlying problem, no, but it feels weird to even technically agree with someone who, rather than trying to be critical of a portrayal yet remain respectful of the gender affected, basically insults and denigrates the character in question while, by extension, reinforcing the use of sexist language.

Not referring to anyone in this thread or even within this forum, but I have seen some of this on Twitter and elsewhere from time to time. I think people shouldn't really do that, period, but maybe someone sees this differently.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
It might be tangential, but I've been thinking somewhat periodically about a particular side of the issue.

How do you folks feel about criticism of sexualized designs or characters that is, in and of itself, sexist and demeaning?

Basically, I mean cases involving people who use gender-based slurs (or polite language and descriptions that are effectively equivalent to the same) in order to criticize, mock or attack a character who is being portrayed in a sexualized manner.

It doesn't invalidate the existence of the underlying problem, no, but it feels weird to even technically agree with someone who, rather than trying to be critical of a portrayal yet remain respectful of the gender affected, basically insults and denigrates the character in question while, by extension, reinforcing the use of sexist language.

Not referring to anyone in this thread or even within this forum, but I have seen some of this on Twitter and elsewhere from time to time. I think people shouldn't really do that, period, but maybe someone sees this differently.
Can you give an example? Not sure I follow.
 
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esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
Yes. It can be more direct than that, without even saying "dressed like" in the first place, but it works as an example.
While I don't think that kind of language is particularly productive, I'm of the opinion that using body shaming as the point of condescension doesn't really get to the heart of the matter, which is the creator's choice to use exploitation as a vehicle in their story.

Barely there costumes, skin-tight latex suits, etc. just read to me as a designer being creatively bankrupt and generally not worthy of respect lest there is some necessity behind it, and even then I tend to give a side-eye (an example being Shanoa and how she absorbs glyphs by baring her back in Castlevania Order of Ecclesia).

This is one of my problems with Hyung-Tae Kim. I respect the line work and definition he gives to his character designs (particularly eyes / mouths / noses), but his costume designs are still what typically amounts to skin-tight latex suits with frills on them. His past work had considerably greater variety but lately it seems, particularly as with Destiny Child, that the designs are cleaving towards the lowest common denominator rather than visual distinctiveness.
 
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Biestmann

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,413
That is likely the same people that proceed to masturbate to those characters afterwards. They are jerks, so they cannot help hurling slurs at female characters, but a prerequisite for that is that they have a strange intimacy to them that has them think of the characters as someone real. When you think about it, insulting a drawing or animated puppet only makes you look like a moron. But that's exactly what they are.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,708
Brazil
It is shit.
That being said, there are some characters that "she is dressed exactly like a sex worker" is a pretty good description of why this character should not be in a beat em up.

High heels are dangerous while fighting
 

JCG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,539
While I don't think that kind of language is particularly productive, I'm of the opinion that using body shaming as the point of condescension doesn't really get to the heart of the matter, which is the creator's choice to use exploitation as a vehicle in their story.

It isn't changing the core of the problem, I can agree about this, but it's concerning that such individuals seem to implicitly or explicitly send the message that it's okay to use certain language against female characters and, by extension, women, as long as they constitute an instance of questionable representation.

Barely there costumes, skin-tight latex suits, etc. just read to me as a designer being creatively bankrupt and generally not worthy of respect lest there is some necessity behind it, and even then I tend to give a side-eye (an example being Shanoa and how she absorbs glyphs by baring her back in Castlevania Order of Ecclesia).

I think you can still be critical or even fairly aggressive toward the creators due to justified frustration with their characters or the costumes they wear.
 
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esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
It isn't changing the core of the problem, I can agree about this, but it's concerning that such individuals seem to implicitly or explicitly send the message that it's okay to use certain language against female characters and, by extension, women, as long as they constitute an instance of questionable representation.



I think you can still be critical or even fairly aggressive toward the creators due to justified frustration with their characters or the costumes they wear.
I agree, using language that denigrates women when discussing exploitative designs isn't helping anyone, and just serves to perpetuate objectification.
 

JCG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,539
It is shit.
That being said, there are some characters that "she is dressed exactly like a sex worker" is a pretty good description of why this character should not be in a beat em up.

High heels are dangerous while fighting

I think that much can be understandable, if you're making a negative description of the design and leaving it at that level.

That is likely the same people that proceed to masturbate to those characters afterwards. They are jerks, so they cannot help hurling slurs at female characters, but a prerequisite for that is that they have a strange intimacy to them that has them think of the characters as someone real. When you think about it, insulting a drawing or animated puppet only makes you look like a moron. But that's exactly what they are.

That's a very good point. I suppose this can be related, at least in some cases, to the idea of ostensibly hating the character as a person (not just their portrayal as an entirely fictional one) but also having some sort of fantasy about them. Ergo, it may mean there is a rather toxic dynamic at work in that direction too.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,419
The English Wilderness
Today in "Japanese Devs can't design girls unless they have huge tits" news.



That first one has the same cleavage a character in Destiny Child does, and that one was covered up a bit in the Western release.

I keep coming back to this, because it really does do a wonderful job of demonstrating how these things are really focusing their intent on a narrower and narrower audience with each cycle - and how, the narrower that focus becomes, the bigger the tits and more ludicrous the designs.
 

y2kyle89

Member
Mar 16, 2018
9,515
Mass
It's from granblue fantasy. You are lucky I'm not near my computer, I would write an essay about their female characters. I love the art but sometimes it's baffling and so out of characters. Its a mobile gatcha rpg
I really want to like Granblue Fantasy but every time it comes up I realize something icky or creepy about it.
 

UnluckyKate

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,555
I really want to like Granblue Fantasy but every time it comes up I realize something icky or creepy about it.

It has its fan service designs but it has surprising amount of well written events with dark or emotional Twists. It's far from being only happy go lucky half naked lolis or hunsbandos at the beach. Some characters design are superb and some are very questionable.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
No, that would be the second half. I'm talking about this part :

You start talking about how the character isn't happy with her body and how she feels on the inside that she should look differently, while also throwing in subconscious persona there. Shelob changes her appearance magically yes, and it's bad for the lore, but what you're saying here is literally rhetoric that I've seen used against trans people and I'm not sure what you're trying to say here specifically about how she feels on the inside that isn't shitty.

Ketkat, while I can see how RedCrayon could unfortunately be read that way, there's a crucial piece of information that I think you're missing here: a dude made an argument yesterday in the thread about Persona 5's Ann's sexualized design that... wait, I'll just quote my reply because it's hard to believe otherwise:

So, put together, your argument is that:
1- She feels ashamed of her body (absolutely zero indication of this in the game, especially considering she wants to be a model).
2- Being forced into a sexualized outfit (that is, taking away her freedom to dress as he choses, and in particular in a way that won't make men ogle at her) is a good thing, because hey, she shouldn't be embarrassed of her body!

In other words: women that don't wear clothes showing their tits and ass are "ashamed of their bodies" and should be forced into revealing outfits to "cure" them of this.

Are you out of your fucking mind?

RedCrayon was drawing a paralel to that; i.e. the notion that a fictional character with no agency and in no way, shape or form had been portrayed as being sexually agressive, would actually secretly like to be made an hypersexualized babe, so the authors are actually doing a commendable, nay, feminist great thing by granting them their heart's wish. The fun-poking here is at the notion of a fictional character having agency beyond that of its creators (a form of Thermian argument), not at gender disphoria.

If this was anyone else making this argument, I could perhaps harbor a shadow of a doubt, but RedCrayon has been nothing if not relentless in his defense of transgender people:

How the hell can the CEO be ready to fire someone just because a mob of bigots doesn't like that one of their employees is transgender? Doesn't matter they were bots, even if the text of every message was different but the bigotry the same uneducated, fuckwitted opinion by a pack of alleged customers, the complaint has no validity, the employee hasn't done anything wrong just by existing and having a job. At that point as the boss I'd take responsibility for asking the employee if they wanted me to take it to the police with them or however else they wanted to handle it, but I'd reassure them that the company doesn't bow to such vicious halfwitted bigotry laughably claiming it's a moral issue that justifies immorally and anonymously hounding someone out of a job en-masse. What disgusting behaviour from the complainers and what a spineless, disloyal fucker of a CEO, loyalty goes two ways.

So you think discussion here is 'toxic' based on the stuff that you've read and want to delete your account, but somehow seem to think it's unreasonable that others feel exactly the same way about the stream of transphobia put out by CDPR's chosen social media reps. OK.

I'm not criticising you for your reaction: I do understand a cursory read of his post, without all the context, may feel like an attack. But in this case it really is just an honest, unfortunate misunderstanding. Hug and make peace?
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
It might be tangential, but I've been thinking somewhat periodically about a particular side of the issue.

How do you folks feel about criticism of sexualized designs or characters that is, in and of itself, sexist and demeaning?

Basically, I mean cases involving people who use gender-based slurs (or polite language and descriptions that are effectively equivalent to the same) in order to criticize, mock or attack a character who is being portrayed in a sexualized manner.

It doesn't invalidate the existence of the underlying problem, no, but it feels weird to even technically agree with someone who, rather than trying to be critical of a portrayal yet remain respectful of the gender affected, basically insults and denigrates the character in question while, by extension, reinforcing the use of sexist language.

Not referring to anyone in this thread or even within this forum, but I have seen some of this on Twitter and elsewhere from time to time. I think people shouldn't really do that, period, but maybe someone sees this differently.

Evidently, it's bad and should not be excused. More importantly, I think it evidences a fundamenteal misunderstanding of where the problem lies. When someone says "this character dresses like a slut", I don't get the notion that they understand the underlying feminist theory of why a sexualized design is harmful to the perception of women as sex object. Rather, it seems like a gut reaction, probably even coming from a place of prudishness, which is just as bad or worse. There's nothing in that sentence that informs me that this person would approve of an actual, real-life woman choosing to dress like that, which is at the core of feminism (increasing women's power and freedom).
 

StarBot

Banned
Jan 12, 2018
158
tbh i really don't care if i get permanently banned at this point. resetera's mods jerk themselves silly over how progressive the forum is, while simultaneously allowing men to ridicule women's concerns about misogyny. i don't value this site enough to self-censor myself to avoid eating bans. if i get banned for insulting some misogynist, then good fucking riddance, tbh. it says more about resetera and its mods than it says about me.
As the saying gose
"Two wrongs don't make a right"
 

Nana&Popo

Member
May 6, 2018
177
It's from granblue fantasy. You are lucky I'm not near my computer, I would write an essay about their female characters. I love the art but sometimes it's baffling and so out of characters. Its a mobile gatcha rpg
I love Granblue, but I have a high tolerance for that kind of thing (might help that I'm a lesbian). And even I can say that it's very... problematic. There's an entire race of cow people where the males are big burly muscle monsters and the women are tiny girls with huge tits, you know... because they're cows.
 

UnluckyKate

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,555
I love Granblue, but I have a high tolerance for that kind of thing (might help that I'm a lesbian). And even I can say that it's very... problematic. There's an entire race of cow people where the males are big burly muscle monsters and the women are tiny girls with huge tits, you know... because they're cows.

It doesn't help that the game pushes you to use racist weapons and be a racist toward your team comp (bahamut weapons)
 

Hasseigaku

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,547
Gacha games as a whole have a lot of issues with their female character designs, and I say that as someone who plays several.
 

AkiraAkira

Member
Dec 28, 2017
1,181
Yeahhhh...

Also as someone who plays gacha games (my avatar is of the first 5* character I rolled in Dragalia Lost), the way a lot of their female characters are designed and written is pretty horrible.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,419
The English Wilderness
All you need to know when it comes to gacha games:
gendermobilewhalescgsd8.png
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,809
It's from granblue fantasy. You are lucky I'm not near my computer, I would write an essay about their female characters. I love the art but sometimes it's baffling and so out of characters. Its a mobile gatcha rpg

I would be interested to see the essay because I have no context for granblue
None, I know it exists
 

Minotaur

Member
Oct 25, 2017
283
One says 'Heavy Players', the other 'Heavy Payers'. Took me long to see myself. Basically, more men spend despite the gender play rate being even.
Hah! Wow i missed it too. The difference in spending doesnt surprise me but how even the player base is.

Though now with this chart it makes sense why white day in granblue released more female units and why people were upset
 

caff!!!

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,031
Yeahhhh...

Also as someone who plays gacha games (my avatar is of the first 5* character I rolled in Dragalia Lost), the way a lot of their female characters are designed and written is pretty horrible.
Yes, combined with dragons turning from being actual dragons with Silke being the only humanlike one who actually has a cute design and concept to 500 big titty half naked women """""""dragons""""""" on the gatcha reel. And this bullshit:
unknown.png
 
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